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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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IonMane 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 23:54:09
#81 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@takemehomegrandma

Thats all really very nice but all hearsay and to say the least.
This thread is about AmigaDE and AmigaOS, what may or may not have happened with morphos back then is not the issue of this thread.

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stew 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 0:25:43
#82 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2003
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@IonMane


I have not checked out the shell game that BB supposedly played but I have taken notice of Amiga Inc's. It stinks to high heaven. Any company that does that to get out of contractual obligations is rotten to the core. We have a builder in our area. Went by Tony Houseman Homes. Got sued by several clients and lost. Filed bankrupcy and changed his name to Tony Houseman Home Builders. I just finished a job that someone had started and gotten paid for up front and did not finish. Customer went to sue but he had filed bankrupcy and changed his company name and is still ripping people off.. Now this only happens with corporations, not us sole proprietorships as we can be personaly sued. It sucks for the people that got burned. I don't care if it is AI, Genesi or Tony Houseman! Don't defend one over the other in this, they both stink if it is true. The AI shell game has been shown to be fact. I will google the Genesi one.

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 7:03:28
#83 ]
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Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@IonMane

Quote:
AmigaDE and AmigaOS4 were, have been and probably always will be seperate products.


At one point in time there was only one next generation Amiga OS. And this is what Genesi (then Thendic) licensed, and the license also covers the future developments and upgrades of Amiga's OS. That is at least how I understand the thing.

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 7:11:10
#84 ]
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Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@IonMane

I don't consider it to be hearsay at this point, all this has been confirmed by numerous sources a numerous times during the past years.

Regarding the topic, well it's "Reality check" (and we can't get too many of those IMHO ). Anyway, it was merely a response to the "what came first, MorphOS or OS3.9", but if you actually read some of the links you will *also* see the AmigaDE and AmigaOS talked about (in the vague shapes they were at that time)...

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Benji 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 9:09:39
#85 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2003
Posts: 573
From: Cheltenham or London, UK

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
At one point in time there was only one next generation Amiga OS. And this is what Genesi (then Thendic) licensed,


Nothing has changed - OS4 was called "Classic" in AIs eyes, and its was and is essentially a PPC port of 3.9 technology.

The impression they have always given is that the OE/DE/AA thing is the "next generation" Amiga, and it was sometimes called an OS too, which in a broad sense it is, I think its just that nobody has seen it "native"...

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Rogue 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 11:05:21
#86 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
This must have been about the thoughts of putting the 68k Amiga OS (or at least big parts of it) on top of the MorphOS kernel and 68k emulation?


No idea really. I remember only the wording that Fleecy used, something in the line of "what do you guys think of OS 4 tentatively hosted on top of MorphOS". I didn't go into details, as I said, I never was interested.

Quote:
Yes, you obviously encountered some big surprizes, one after another!


Yeah, life is full of surprises, funnily enough they never came where the Cassandra's predicted them. I still remember fondly *snickers* the comments I read about "they are in for a big surprise once they try to run on the AmigaOne and find out it will never work"... And I wish the people that demonstrated OS 4 running on the AmigaOne the first time had had a camera to take a picture of a few of those that came to glee on yet another Linux demonstration and where, shall we say, somewhat surprised?

*chuckle* Oh yeah, surprises....

Not saying we didn't have our own eye openers. The process was long and painful, more so since it seems that a lot of outside influence tried to (unsuccessfully) stop us.

Quote:
But another thing - if you look at the work you outlined in the contract, then OS4 would have ended up to become a completely different end-result. I mean, you calculated to have it done in, what was it, 4-5 months, but that was for something that would have been a little "limited" compared to what you have reached now, right? Today, you have spent *a bunch of years* on top of that 4-5 months, but the result is also something completely different.


It surely is. The original idea was OS 3.9 on top of WarpOS, based on the Escena AmigaOne daughterboard in an A1200. The way it is now, we could merge in a lot of the features we had planned for 4.1 and 4.2.

I mean, the new memory system in the kernel alone will come as a surprise to a few people. Thomas single-handedly implemented an entirely new memory system, based on the Solaris model, including a buddy allocator, slab allocator, segregated memory lists, kernel caches, etc. The system is very efficient (and before someone gets the idea, no there is no solaris source code in OS 4, it's all been implemented from scratch).

Quote:
When did you make this decision, and why? Was it something that just happened somewhere along the line?


I can't remember anymore. It just happened I suppose. Somewhere down the road things just turned in that direction. No one was really content with the OS3.9-on-WarpOS solution anymore, or rather, a solution similar to that - originally on the kernel was supposed to be rewritten in PPC code). Nowadays, I think there is no 68k code left in anything kickstart-related (some of the external tools might still be 68k, I dunno really). and things got a LOT better than we originally anticipated.

Quote:
"we'd better hurry up, tomorrow's christmas daaaay" ...


Well, not quite tomorrow, but I know when it will be for me this year.

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Darrin 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 11:25:08
#87 ]
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Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 1941
From: Lake Charles, USA

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
Here is a timeline from the ANN.lu history goldmine (don't forget to read the comments! ):

view=0986130672&category=news&start=1&63]Part 3[/url] (notice the third paragraph from top, also the first comment from Darrin. Interesting IMO).


Thanks for that little trip down memory lane. Did I really type half of that stuff???!!!

At least I've mellowed in the last FIVE years.

I was more concerned to read my cooment about backing Amiga Inc as the "legal Amiga owner" and wondering whether their path would be like "the Charle of The Light Brigade or Desert Storm". I think I can safely say that I now know the answer.

What really pisses me off is that BOTH sides were expecting final mainstream hardware/software solutions to be realeased at any time. Some of us have actually died of old age while we've been waiting.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 11:32:07
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2398
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
At one point in time there was only one next generation Amiga OS. And this is what Genesi (then Thendic) licensed, and the license also covers the future developments and upgrades of Amiga's OS. That is at least how I understand the thing.

Your understanding implies that Hyperion's OS4 may be (a development of) the OS Thendic licensed. And your understanding is completely wrong. And what's been said in this thread (even directly to you, remaining sometimes unanswered) should be enough to prove it. However, I'll try again - one last time.
Let's look at what Thendic got the license for directly in the OEM SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT (very first items after the identification of the involved parties):


  1. "Amiga develops state of the art operating system technology that enables a high level of functionality and facilities applications on a wide range of computer devices"
  2. "Amiga has developed a DE Operating System to which it owns all substantial rights"

(and, besides those two points, In the whole document all references are exlusively to AmigaDE).

Now, let's look at point 1. The "operating system technology" is said to enable, at the time of the contract, a "a high level of functionality and facilities applications on a wide range of computer devices": did Hyperion's AmigaOS 4 exist back then? No. Does Hyperion AmigaOS 4 run on a wide range of computer devices? No.
Let's look at point 2. Amiga, at the time of the contract, is said to have *already* "developed a DE Operating System": since Hyperion's AOS4 did not even exist back then, the OS in the contract, being already developed, must have been another system.
Add to this the deep difference between the two systems (already explained many times in this thread, starting from the opening post), and you'll see that it is impossible to establish the relationship between AmigaDE and AmigaOS 4 you are - without reason and without consideration of what people are telling you - venting.

saimo

edit: fixed uncorrect quote at point 1.

Last edited by saimo on 15-Dec-2006 at 01:58 PM.

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redrumloa 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 13:48:18
#89 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Feb-2005
Posts: 562
From: Unknown

@Darrin

Quote:

Darrin wrote:
Thanks for that little trip down memory lane. Did I really type half of that stuff???!!!


I'm right there with you. I'm affraid to read to deep in the coments for fear of finding some embarassing coments of my own

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 13:51:04
#90 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@Rogue

Quote:
Not saying we didn't have our own eye openers. The process was long and painful, more so since it seems that a lot of outside influence tried to (unsuccessfully) stop us.


Hmm, that sparks my curiosity! What outsider possesed that kind of influence? And how did they try to stop you?

Quote:
Quote:
But another thing - if you look at the work you outlined in the contract, then OS4 would have ended up to become a completely different end-result. I mean, you calculated to have it done in, what was it, 4-5 months, but that was for something that would have been a little "limited" compared to what you have reached now, right? Today, you have spent *a bunch of years* on top of that 4-5 months, but the result is also something completely different.


It surely is. The original idea was OS 3.9 on top of WarpOS, based on the Escena AmigaOne daughterboard in an A1200. The way it is now, we could merge in a lot of the features we had planned for 4.1 and 4.2.


I guess that the original specifications of work-to-be-done (and time spent) also set the dollar-amount for Amiga Inc's "buy-back" option? If so, did you renegotiate this amount when you began putting more and more work into the project? Or is this what the Bill McEwen talks about when he say "Unfortunately, this is now in the hands of attorneys"? Or was that something else?

Sorry if this is turning into a "25 questions to the Friedens" session ...

Quote:
I mean, the new memory system in the kernel alone will come as a surprise to a few people. Thomas single-handedly implemented an entirely new memory system, based on the Solaris model, including a buddy allocator, slab allocator, segregated memory lists, kernel caches, etc. The system is very efficient (and before someone gets the idea, no there is no solaris source code in OS 4, it's all been implemented from scratch).


This sounds cool I guess. But clueless as I am about these kind of things I will have to ask - will it affect backwards-compatibility in any negative way? Or is everything a 100% shift to the better?

Quote:
Quote:
"we'd better hurry up, tomorrow's christmas daaaay" ...


Well, not quite tomorrow, but I know when it will be for me this year.


Ah, maybe you are talking about the upcoming good news, so when? And what - OS4 released? A new A1 CPU module from ACK?

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 13:55:23
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@redrumloa

Quote:

redrumloa wrote:
@Darrin

Quote:

Darrin wrote:
Thanks for that little trip down memory lane. Did I really type half of that stuff???!!!


I'm right there with you. I'm affraid to read to deep in the coments for fear of finding some embarassing coments of my own


I know what you mean guys!

But I think it's kind of healthy to look in the rear mirror once in a while. Everyone should do it really.

And it's kind of fun to browse ANN's content from that era. ANN.lu has worked as *the* news site (especially at that time), so everything is there, including the surrounding discussions. If it isn't on ANN, then it hasn't happened!

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Darrin 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 14:12:08
#92 ]
Team Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 1941
From: Lake Charles, USA

@takemehomegrandma & Redrumloa,

I hope you guys realise that if any of us ever become famous then the tabloid media are going to have a field day quoting our posts from ANN.

It also shows how "enthusiastic" we were back then. Now, apathy has definately crept in and it's the main reason why we need hardware NOW rather than LATER. I actually envy the C64 community as they seem to have had a better time than we have.

I'm definately tired of all the fighting. I guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed for a solution by Xmas 2007.

Last edited by Darrin on 15-Dec-2006 at 02:13 PM.

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IonMane 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 15:07:30
#93 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@stew

Not defending anybody, just pointing out the facts as they exist. Unfortunately morality and legality in most systems of law are two seperate and distinct things with rarely the moral issues being adressed.

In the case of Amiga Inc. Quite frankly there is little information available to us on where the money is and who really owned what or how much of it, either of them really, as it is a private company. It could be that the "investors" performed this alleged shell game I don;t know. Did the investors actually own Amiga Inc. I dont know. Are the investors the same mob that invested in both Amiga Inc. and KMOS, that is also unknown to me.

There is no evidence that I am aware of at this point, but the fact Amiga Inc. did not even have money to pay thier lawyers in this case, and the New Amiga Inc. is buying companies and so on seems to indicate that the investors are different or they would have supplied the comparatively small amount of cash to nail that bogus lawsuit from the getgo.

As far as Genesi is concerned, what I saw was that the various "Thendic" companies were owned by a holding company called Preatory (or something similar) They all went belly up so BB started a new company Genesi and transferred the assest to it. This much is known as he was a "substansive stakeholder" in both Genesi and Thendic which was the tenuous claim that allowed Genesi to be listed as a complaintant in the beforementioned courtcase.

Anyway, that is all off topic, the point still remains that AOS4 is a seperate and distinct product from AmigaDE, and is by no means a deritive, upgrade or enhancement of AmigaDE in any way shape or form. This is backed by court findings and as such is a matter of law. That Genesi or anyone else "claims" that this is not the case, it does not make it so. The facts state otherwise.

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gary_c 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 15:08:56
#94 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@Interesting

Quote:
Quote:
2005-10-20: Treveur Bretaudiere won its trial against Thendic-France
wonder if Treveur ever got paid?

My understanding is that that statement about winning a lawsuit is a complete fabrication. If anyone has seen any confirmation of that claim, please post the info. It appears to be deliberate misinformation.

-- gary_c

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 16:21:17
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Rogue

Quote:

Yeah, life is full of surprises, funnily enough they never came where the Cassandra's predicted them. I still remember fondly *snickers* the comments I read about "they are in for a big surprise once they try to run on the AmigaOne and find out it will never work"...


Or what about those comments that went along the lines of "AmigaOS4 will not ship this year, nor the next one, nor the next next one..."

Oh, wait, that actually did came true.

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ChrisH 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 17:18:47
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma who said Quote:
Quote:
Thomas single-handedly implemented an entirely new memory system

This sounds cool I guess. But clueless as I am about these kind of things I will have to ask - will it affect backwards-compatibility in any negative way?

That's a VERY good point. Although you shouldn't do it, I *recall* that the old Amiga memory system allowed you to deallocate PART of a memory block. Something like a buddy allocator definitely does NOT support that, which would break backwards compatibility - unless they coded specific support for that (which would reduce memory efficiency & perhaps speed).

I have no idea how many Amiga apps actually do naughty stuff like that, so it may not be a problem.

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 21:16:15
#97 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@falemagn

Quote:

falemagn wrote:
@Rogue

Quote:

Yeah, life is full of surprises, funnily enough they never came where the Cassandra's predicted them. I still remember fondly *snickers* the comments I read about "they are in for a big surprise once they try to run on the AmigaOne and find out it will never work"...


Or what about those comments that went along the lines of "AmigaOS4 will not ship this year, nor the next one, nor the next next one..."

Oh, wait, that actually did came true.


Well, it seems that "OS4" has been a sliding target. At first, it was only supposed to be that 4-5 months effort of putting OS3.9 on top of WarpOS (or whatever). Then it became clear to them that this would not be possible. Then they realized that they wanted to do more of "OS4" than simply just that (possibly after looking at where MorphOS were about to land? (who said competion is a bad thing?)). And then even more. And so on. I can easily understand that.

In this context I don't think it's fair to judge them by deadlines from several years ago.

The OS4 teams effort is well established by now and much appreciated by lots of people.

(speculations)

I can also understand if things today aren't exactly "in sync" with what Amiga Inc is prepared to pay (according to the contract) for their "buy back" option. And then McEwens talk about lawyers, etc. It would be interesting to hear some clarifications about this. Rogue? Am I right, or am I hopelessly lost?

The interesting thing here though IMHO (in the context of this thread) is whether Genesi could actually help things out for the OS4 team or not?

(/speculations)

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redrumloa 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 21:22:04
#98 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Feb-2005
Posts: 562
From: Unknown

@me

Quote:

redrumloa wrote:
Buck is a bit of a inaccurate remark removed .


You know what? This comment is so way off base, I need to withdrawal it. Of all the words or phrases to try to get across the point I was trying to make, this one is probably one of the most inaccurate I could have pulled out of my head. Buck is a salesman and apparently in many aspects a successful one with a genuine product.

I've got a lot on my plate (personal life) lately and I seem to be a bit to edgy in some of my forum posts. That statement goes in all directions.

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 22:23:35
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

I can easily understand that.


I can't. Or rather, I can understand it, but it's unjustifiable, from any point of view that makes sense in a business: the market that was there 5 years ago (and it was already a very thin market) isn't there anymore. AmigaOS4 and related stuff is a history of missed deadlines, half-truths and utter lies, and while all this was happening the outside world was moving on.

There's basically nothing that today AmigaOS4 can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already. AmigaOS doesn't make sense on a mass market handheld, nor on the desktop, nor anywhere else I can imagine. Wherever you look at there's already someone selling his product, or even giving it away for free.

No offence intended to anyone, but given this is a reality check thread, what about checking reality... for real?

Last edited by falemagn on 15-Dec-2006 at 10:24 PM.

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Darrin 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 15-Dec-2006 22:37:41
#100 ]
Team Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 1941
From: Lake Charles, USA

@redrumloa

Hang in there mate. I hope that whatever is getting on top of you sorts itself out. Christmas always gets me down too, especially as the ex wife has just moved to Florida and taken my kids with her (despite us having joint custody).

I had quite a good dig through ANN as a result of this thread. Looking back on all of the press releases/hype on all sides, I firmly believe that all parties involved were convinced that their solution was the best solution and everything they did was done in good faith to promote their vision of the Next Generation Amiga. Every business and salesman needs to promote his product with 200% enthusiasm. Hell, if you want to see it in action then simply go to a car dealership and pretend to buy a vehicle. You'll encounter hype, BS, lies, extortion and more BS and that's before you even reach the finance office!

It's too easy to point out where people went wrong. At this moment I'm looking at what needs to be done to get things right. Everything I hear about OS4 makes me want to run it for myself and, regardless of what people think of BBRV, they has managed to bring a cheap little board to the market that shows some great potential as an affordable development machine that could lure people back. I looked at some of the arguments I had with Bill Buck on the ANN threads (not to mention the ones here and on AO) and yet he's the only one left that has something positive to offer us as a hardware platform right now.

I'm still also interested in the development of the Panda, Samantha and the Power Vixen but the price of these products is not going to drag Joe Average back to the Amiga. This Efika looks like a good stepping stone for the curious while the others (if and when they appear on the market) will attract the own classic users (Vixen) or power users (Panda). I'm also curious to see if a more powerful (expansion & CPU) Efika is in the pipeline.

So, after waiting all of these years for some PPC hardware, I've decided to spend some money and put an Efika system together. I've never used Linux and at this price this looks like a good opportunity to try it. I've never even seen MorphOS run and that could be interesting, but I'm really hoping that enough people using these boards could make OS4 on them a reality. Meanwhile, wish me luck with Linux.

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