@BrianK

Quote:

Don't forget that it is licensed for FFXiii by Square, who also has yet to commit to PS3 exclusive.

No, the UT3 engine only recently got multi-threading support for 3rd party developers. They are getting sued for providing a subpar engine to 3rd parties, but with regard to the PS3 Sony said they have some supercoders helping Epic on making the UT3 engine stand out well enough on the PS3.

Square is using their own game engine for the upcoming Final Fantasy games, the engine supports the Cell's SPEs and in an interview they told the press the PS3's capabilities are the best to suit their imagination and creativity.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Jul-2007 at 05:32 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

UT3 engine based games (Rainbow Six Vegas, Unreal Tournament 3, Fatal Inertia, etc).

Don't forget that it is licensed for FFXiii by Square, who also has yet to commit to PS3 exclusive.

Quote:

Exclusivity doesn't make much sense unless a platform clearly dominates the industry like was the case with the PS2

Exactly! The 360 has infiltrated the once domain by Sony. While the 360 isn't #1 it's hurt the once former #1. And I think the vice of 'a stronger PS3 makes creating XBox 360 games more viable for multiplatform developers ' is also true because it looks to be at worst these 2 will split the hardcore gaming crowd with neither a standout victor.

Quote:

IMO we haven't seen any extra-ordinary developments

IMO we have. Companies that had exclusivity in the 6th gen realm of consoles are often, not always, going multiplatform in the 7th gen. Relating back to the thread point even with the issues on the 360 it's still in more users hands and developers are seeing it more attractive then the Xbox. This is not only a user count the 360 enjoys a high attach rate so more sales per console + a fair number of console is a win for developers. The 360 may have problems a 3year warranty is a major improvement longevity as you can get the thing fixed, and the new revisions reducing the problem will even go further to help. Xmas sales will be good for the 360 even with it's foibles.

@BrianK

I don't see a major shift with regard to how multi-platform developers view their business. They want to support as many different viable platforms as possible, taking into account the userbase's size and preferences, porting viability and costs. Capcom is a good example of such a company porting their games to anything from ZX Spectrum to Amiga. If your company is using a game engine supporting various platformd the porting process is simplified, like for instance is the case of UT3 engine based games (Rainbow Six Vegas, Unreal Tournament 3, Fatal Inertia, etc).

Exclusivity doesn't make much sense unless a platform clearly dominates the industry like was the case with the PS2 later on during its life-cycle or if the console maker invests a great deal into making exclusivity interesting. The former is clearly not the case with regard to the XBox 360 as for example the console has been outsold by the PS2 for every single month since the XBox 360's availability and the PS3 is gaining ground and XBox 360 sales are even slowing down considerably in the states. But a stronger PS3 makes creating XBox 360 games more viable for multiplatform developers if they don't want to tap too much into the SPE's additional performance and likewise vice versa. IMO we haven't seen any extra-ordinary developments.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Jul-2007 at 04:18 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 24-Jul-2007 at 03:27 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Telling what? They are both Capcom games. Resident Evil 4's main target platform was the GameCube and was also ported to the PC just like Devil May Cry

And a point you didn't state but should be read in is neither was ported to the Xbox yet now both are ported to the 360. I think this is telling that the 360 for a user base and development aspect is an attractive option for the highly complex visually and gameplay wise games.

Quote:

The Japanese have gone Wii for now

Yes and no. Japanese companies that want mainly Japan sales are going Wii. Companies that are creating visually complex games and wanting to expand to the worldwide marketplace are seeing the PS3 and the 360 as the attractive choices. Since the 360 has the user count worldwide and is fairly comparable in power to the PS3 it makes sense for businesses to move from PS2 exclusivity to multiplatform or even to a 360 exclusive. We're definitely seeing a reduction of Sony exclusivity for multiplatform.

So how does this point work into the thread? Microsoft needs to continue to fix their 360 issues, and they will - warranty extended and new designs on the way are but 2 glaring examples. By doing so they will shore up the current confidence level of their console and continue to press into a marketshare greater then the Xbox and developers will continue to reach their wares onto the 360. I go back to my previous Xmas 07 statements. This Xmas is going to be very telling. If Microsoft can get fixes in place by Halo3 launch they'll do well this Christmas.

@BrianK

Quote:

But I think it's telling this generation that we're seeing exclusives such as Resident Evil and Devil May Cry going multiplatform.

Telling what? They are both Capcom games. Resident Evil 4's main target platform was the GameCube and was also ported to the PC just like Devil May Cry.

Quote:

show Japanese Developers that the 360 is a viable option

The Japanese have gone Wii for now. For Epic RPG games it's telling Japanese developing companies enough that in Japan the PS3 already has more than double the XBox 360's marketshare in about a third the timespan. Don't expect exclusive Japanese fireworks to come to the XBox 360 unless Microsoft pays for it. The XBox 360 really performs well in the US and surprisingly the UK, don't expect Japanese companies to release Madden, NHL, NBA-type sports games or a new macho Ateam-like Gears of War-type shooter.

@BrianK, MikeB

You guys are off-topic.

@MikeB

Good humor. But IMO, the important part
Quote:

...every major Japanese publisher is supporting the Xbox 360. That was not the case in Xbox v1. I think every Japanese publisher, they’re business guys, too. They’re like, “Look, we need to support Xbox 360,” because outside of Japan, we’re the leader in the next generation. And Wii’s not a great platform for them to do Final Fantasy epic-level types of titles, and PS3 doesn’t have a big install base and lacks momentum of their own. I think you’re going to see more and more Japanese content for Xbox 360....Ultimately, it’s going to be content that sways people....

But I think it's telling this generation that we're seeing exclusives such as Resident Evil and Devil May Cry going multiplatform. As these sell on the 360, and they will, it'll show Japanese Developers that the 360 is a viable option, especially if they want to push their games outside of Japan. If a company wants to make a big budget and big graphics game they need big sales. The Wii can't cut the big graphics. Right now neither the PS3 nor 360 can cut the big budget exclusive, IMO. This all points the way that the 360 will continue to be a popular option.

@BrianK

Quote:

Most everything at E3 for the 360 had already been announced. So yeah nothing new but I think most anyone paying attention would realize Microsoft wouldn't really have anything new to show. They definitely should have kept a project or 2 under wraps.

It appears they thought they had......

From an interview with Shane Kim, Corporate Vice President, Microsoft Game Studios:

Quote:

Kim: Yeah, but here’s the thing: I think one of the most important, subtle announcements at the Xbox 360 briefing is that Resident Evil is coming to Xbox 360. Yes, it’s from Capcom, who’s been a great supporter of us. GI: But we knew that two years ago. Kim: What? GI: Resident Evil. It was shown at TGS two years ago. Kim: No, but coming to Xbox 360. GI: Yeah. It was at the press event. Kim: I don’t think so. GI: I’m positive. I was there. Kim: Really? GI: It was shown at both press conferences. Kim: That RE5 was coming to…? GI: Yep. Kim: I’m going to have to confirm that. That was supposed to be the big announcement

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200707/N07.0720.1230.26535.htm?Page=4

@MikeB

Quote:

Regarding disc scratching, I think it's amazing how long this is known to be a problem and still Microsoft denies everything and still ships consoles years later without having properly addressed the issue.

Reading on this problem appears to be limited to 1 of the 4 different DVD manufactures. Even then it seems some with that drive type are impacted or not. Unlike the 3 red ring problem it appears that this problem doesn't come later but comes out of the box this way and scratches all discs slowly. Definitely something that needs to be addressed and those discs replaced.

Regarding disc scratching, I think it's amazing how long this is known to be a problem and still Microsoft denies everything and still ships consoles years later without having properly addressed the issue.

Article from 2005:

"According to reports obtained by Gamasutra, a number of subscribers to the North American GameFly video game rental service have received messages regarding an Xbox 360 hardware fault that potentially scratches game discs, making them unplayable.

The issue has previously been discussed at length on a number of fan websites, with the problem being particularly pronounced if users move the Xbox 360 while it is in use. However, some consumers are reporting that their Xbox 360 hardware will scratch discs without being moved.

The disc scratching problem is evidently widespread enough that GameFly has prepared a 'form letter' to send to all consumers who return Xbox 360 discs with defects on them, commenting:

"We have received reports that certain XBOX 360 consoles have caused damage to GameFly videogames. Unfortunately, we have been notified that you recently returned a damaged XBOX 360 game.

As a precaution, we have removed all XBOX 360 games from your GameQ. Please contact Microsoft at 1-800-4MY-XBOX. Please do not rent XBOX 360 games until you have resolved this issue.

In the future, should GameFly receive XBOX 360 games from you that have been damaged, you will be charged a replacement fee."

Representatives from GameFly had not returned calls inquiring about the extent of the problem by press time. Microsoft itself has previously commented to VNUNet regarding post-launch Xbox 360 technical issues: "We have received a few isolated reports of consoles not working as expected. The call rate is well below what you'd expect for a consumer electronics product of this complexity."

Amazing.... I wonder with what "complex" electronics product they are comparing the XBox 360 with? Can't be DVD players or the PS3.



5 minute search on google, 10 comments out of many thousands:

"My XBOX60 scratches my discs without moving the console. After a few hours of playing a game (random times), the game freezes and will not reboot. In some instances, only certain boards/options won't work - in others, the game is completely unplayable. When the disc is removed, it has a bunch of small scratches along the outter 1/4-1/2 inch of the disc.

4MY-XBOX was kind enough to tell me that it just doesn't do it by itself, and that the new 1-year warranty doesn't cover this problem - which somehow is not under "manufacturing defects".

Everyone keeps talking about scratches as a result of moving the console. My Madden 07 (twice) and Call of Duty 3 (three times) have each been scratched, yet my other games have not. Best Buy has been kind enough to replace my games (no questions asked at the exchange counter). Provided I return my games w/in 3 months, I can keep doing this forever. But what happens if an old game gets scratched?"

"Ok, I play Oblivion every now and then when I have time, and randomly the disc just stops moving you can hear it, the game freezes for a slight moment and then the 360 becomes silent. The game seemed fine so I just play on and when I am done playing, I look at the back to see if the disc is fine. I look and damn 1 big ass scratch and like 4 small scratches..."

"My Xbox 360 has been leaving scratches on my discs. On some of my discs it is leaving small scratches which don't effect gameplay at all. On one of my discs, which happens to be Halo 2, has left a large, deep, circular scratch around my disc. Now my game is unplayable," EthanDM said. "Supposedly Microsoft will not cover my game, but they say they can take my Xbox 360 to run tests and fix what they can. This Xbox 360 has really ticked me off, it also randomly freezes and crashes."

"I was playing Gears of War in the verical position as well. 1/2 way through the training mission the drive starts vibrating like crazy and I get a can not read disc. I ejected it and behold, a nice ring. I called up support and was told they have NEVER received one complaint of this happening unless you move it while its running. So I am screwed. Cost me $12 per min to play for 5 min. Thanks Microsoft! Complain people or nothing can be fixed with this issue!"

"So Im not the only one..Bought Gears of War yesterday, played it for 1hr and by disc drive starts hauling but and then game stops and tells me the disc is unreadable and clean with cloth. So I take the disc out and behold a scratch all the way around on the outer part of the CD. Well I say its a fluke, thought maybe it was there when I bought it. Took it back and got the game replaced with a new one. Played that one 30min and stopped just to check the disc. Same scratch in the same place and never touched the 360."

"I have had Gears of War for about 3 weeks. Up until yesterday it was playin great. I took the 360 and the game to a friends house, they knocked it over a few times, but the game played fine. Then today, after playing the game for 2 hours, I get that same unreadable disk screen, NOT KNOCKING IT OVER in that period of time, and open the drive to find a huge white ring close to the outer rim of the disk. Don't have the original receipt either... go figure."

"I purchased my 360 a month after launch and have had 9 discs rendered unreadable with the circular scratches. At first I thought, perhaps, it was user error, and that somehow I must have moved the 360 while it was running. 8 discs later I now know it's not me. I was told by 360 support that I should stand the unit up-right as apposed to horizontal... still the thing scratches my discs. Most recently my GH2 disc was ruined... totally ticked me off, and on top of that I have one of the guitars that have the whammy bar issue. My luck sucks."

"My 360 has put perfectly circular scratches on four of my disks, rendering each of them unplayable. NEVER has the xbox been moved from the well ventilated position it started in. I've owned many gaming councels since Atari, and I assure you this is not a result of user error."

"Microsoft have just replaced my 360. The 3 games I got for it were unplayable after a few weeks with disc scratches. I replaced 2 then they both became unplayable after another few weeks with the same scratches (not full circular ones but little rounded ones like in that video). Hope I have more luck with the new one! (and I never once moved the box either, always been horizontal)"

"man. this is effing ####. mine stays horizontal and I NEVER move it, but the 360 scratches my games. I just got off the phone with MS, and the guy literally kept repeating "Honestly dude, this would only happen if you move the console itself, or if there are vibrations around it such as sound from nearby speakers." He was basically saying it was my fault when it wasn't. #### THIS"

Again, impressive customer care there M$.......

Last edited by MikeB on 23-Jul-2007 at 02:05 PM.

Article on the lawsuit in California:

"Microsoft did not comment, but when asked about the Florida filing last week, spokesman Jack Evans said: "Out of the millions of Xbox consoles in use, Microsoft has not received any widespread reports of Xbox 360s scratching discs."

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=10167

Amazing......

Here in the Netherlands hundreds of users submitted complaints to a consumer protection agency. In reply to the TV program investigating the issue, over on thousand additional complaints followed.

I think that's pretty significant for a small country like the Netherlands!

Just because the web is overcrowded with Red Ring of Death stories doesn't mean this isn't a severe issue to deall with as well...

@jtsiren

XBox 360 user jumping off the sinking ship

@MikeB

Quote:

The devil is in the details, notice the terminator eye.

How cute, you must really adore the guy!

@jtsiren

The devil is in the details, notice the terminator eye.





I can't imagine Sony execs like Jack Tretton or Phil Harrison sending out messages like this to PS3 users.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-Jul-2007 at 09:10 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

In honour of Jeff Bell!

You're slipping Mike, some of the old pictures were actually funny. This was just pointless.

@MikeB

Quote:

The general IQ drop due to a mass troll flood happened much later. I am not a shy guy feeling in no need of hiding, but when people respond maliciously off topic just because a posting is signed MikeB, nomatter the actual content IMO it's not such a strange idea.

Without really wanting to approve anonymous debating in order to hide your identity and position within the debate (which I don't really approve of at all, I do approve and understand the need for anonymity otherwise though), have you ever thought that the Microsoft guy might have been in a similar position to yours - meaning not being taken as he would like if his true identity was known?

If I remember correctly you used several aliases on Moobunny as well, this clouds things even further because it creates the illusion of multiple discussion participants. But true, you are not a spokes-person for a multi-billion dollar company - only the unofficial ex-spokes-person for the third most known brand in Europe... (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

What this Microsoft guy did, not cool at all even though I guess it happens all around all the time.

Last edited by jtsiren on 20-Jul-2007 at 08:42 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Seems to be a way of the world and I'd rather live without it.

You can never tell who's posting on forums, companies do it all the time, we know because they are occasionally caught. Occasionally you see them catching themselves out, I seen a guy on OSnews give himself away once. This seems to be something similar.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@jtsiren

Well, I've been a Moobunny poster since during its golden years, when there still were many in depth technical messages being posted.

The general IQ drop due to a mass troll flood happened much later. I am not a shy guy feeling in no need of hiding, but when people respond maliciously off topic just because a posting is signed MikeB, nomatter the actual content IMO it's not such a strange idea.

Quote:

Saying about pot kettle?

I don't make millions a year for being a spokesman for a multi-billion mammoth company. The guy should be more professional than that. And BTW what Master Ninja said was pretty harmless (calling him to be a comedian), nowhere near the abuse people receive over at Moobunny.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-Jul-2007 at 08:04 PM.

@MikeB

Nooooooooo... MikeB... you of all people shouldn't know NOBODY does anonymous posting to hide their true identity on Moobunny, sorry, NeoGAF. Saying about pot kettle?

Having said that, I'd prefer Jeff not doing that if that's what he did. I dislike also the alleged Hydra project from the Blu-ray backers which does similar things on a more organized level, if those reports are true. Our own Amiga community saw recent example when allegedly Hyperion posted about the Amiga Inc. lawsuit in alias. Seems to be a way of the world and I'd rather live without it.

Last edited by jtsiren on 20-Jul-2007 at 07:38 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 20-Jul-2007 at 07:35 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

So that must account for well over a million XBox 360 units before consumer sales actually hit 10 million

That'd be 12-15% well far under the 50%+ number you've tried to push. Luckily Microsoft has deep pockets so the 360 will be around tomorrow.


@Lou
Not sure what was redesigned after launch to cheapen the consoles. But, we all know that even launch consoles had issues so it seems the issues are longer lasting. The one hard thing to tell is what % of new 360s or Elites are issues compared to what % of say launch consoles.

Quote:

If they write-off future legal fees to the "legal department" then they can still claim profitability - I guess

Or they could include the DVD player in the 3 year recall which would likely kill the lawsuit but unfortunately not replace the games. Obviously they need to do something about damaged games.

Quote:

Also, with sales slowing, they have less units to fix.

If one looks at vgcharts the 360 slowed last summer too. Also looking at graphs the rate of sale is at or slightly above the PS3. Since summer is the slow time for everyone I'd put more weight into Jan08 results of this Holiday season then July/Aug. The later are important but they aren't the power sales that the holiday and spring seasons are for consoles. Check vgcharts again onthe 360 and you'll see the large upswing last holiday season. They've a good bunch o' games coming this fall I think everyone is expecting console upswings this holiday of sizes clearly outstripping July sales.

Quote:

Software sales have been what's keeping the platform alive. An analyst recently predicted that the 360 may sell about as well as the original Xbox. That would not be good for MS. If that is the cast, the 360 could still be a net loss.

Actually that could be good forthe 360. Don't forget Microsoft makes money off the games. The 360, it's claimed, has the highest attach rates out of any console. As long as more games sell this gen then last gen Microsoft will consider it a win. Heck they've considered it enough to commit to their 3rd console.

Quote:

How much !Live content do they need to push/sell to remain afloat in this industry. That does seem to be there ultimate goal.

Live is currently the #1 HD content online reseller in the world.