@Massi

Quote:

I do believe Amiga programming is more demanding

Why is that? We have a rather comfortable IDE (Codebench), we get a lot of helpful stuff (like link libraries) ported over from the Linux world that saves programming time and effort - has the 8bit crowd got the same? (I have no idea.) But whatever - I'm fine with AmigaOS programming being demanding as long as it produces modern(ish), sophisticated-enough applications

Quote:

I must 100% agree here ... a lot of time is actually being wasted producing only gossip and nothing else

Not that I want to defend trolls and whiners but let's be frank - Hyperion themselves give them a lot of fuel with their secretive, NDA-ridden policïes and incompetent CRM.

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The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

@Hypex

I wonder about you sometimes bloke. For every normal/rational comment you make, you say something equally bizarre
Do you have an evil twin brother? Or perhaps some sort of multiple personality disorder?

Seriously, pc users are sheep?
The vast majority of "NG" hardware comes from intel/amd/NVidia.
AGP bus, Intel. PCI express, Intel. Controller chips,SiS. Sata controllers, Intel/amd. Supported gfx hardware, AMD. South bridge on a1xe, AMD

There's a few exceptions, but sans cpu architecture, the ppc "ng" system users are just as much sheep by your definition. In fact possibly moreso, as it's copying/using what was created for use elsewhere.

Also, you aspire to argb32? You do realise that higher color precision has existed for over a decade right?

Last edited by fishy_fis on 07-May-2015 at 03:09 PM.

@OlafS25

The OCD in me couldn't refrain.....

Quote:

it is funny that you say I am apathic

The word is apathetic

@Trixie

Yes Amiga programming (both modern and old) is more demanding (= difficult) than C64 in the sense that it requires much skill and effort.

Can you for example compare programming A500 vs C64 at hardware level?

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@OlafS25

I didn't mean you personally of course - I meant the community as a whole.

@Massi

Quote:

Yes Amiga programming (both modern and old) is more demanding (= difficult) than C64 in the sense that it requires much skill and effort.

Are you seriously suggesting that getting something decent out of an C64 doesn't require skill or effort?

Quote:

Can you for example compare programming A500 vs C64 at hardware level?

I can, and I'm guessing you haven't programmed on either.

@Britelite

Im with you here. Developing for amiga/amiga-oid systems is easier than developing for c64.
Things like Hollywood, AMOS, Blitz, HiSoft Basic, and the plethora of other RAD tools simply don't exist for c64.
Also the amiga/amiga-oid systems have the huge advantage of many current development tools and apis.

If you want to develop something decent for c64 asm is the only real option, which means needing to learn the machine reasonably well.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 08-May-2015 at 06:33 AM.

@fishy_fis

Quote:

Im with you here. Developing for amiga/amiga-oid systems is easier than developing for c64.

I wouldn't say either platform is easier than the other, they just pose different challenges.

@Britelite

Hehe, in that case I retract my previous agreeance

I truly believe developing something worthwhile on the c64 is a bigger challenge.

The simple task of displaying graphics for example..... on an amiga/amiga-oid system you simply load graphics data/bitmap, and then set the viewport.

On c64 you have to define your graphics through a series of redefined chars (if not using bitmaps), and also rearrange memory areas (in multiple blocks) to be able to store said gfx data. This must all be done by manually setting data.

Obviously this isn't the place for more elaborate descriptions/explanations, and the above is simplified, but point being doing anything cool on c64 requires low level knowledge. This isn't the case for the amiga/amiga-oid systems where there's simple to use functions for gfx/sound, along with Intuition, taglists, and so on.

And this is even disregarding the much friendlier development environments available to amiga-oids.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 08-May-2015 at 04:58 PM.
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Last edited by fishy_fis on 08-May-2015 at 04:52 PM.

@fishy_fis

Quote:

I truly believe developing something worthwhile on the c64 is a bigger challenge.

I think it depends on the definition of "worthwile", I'd say it's huge challenge on both C64 and Amiga to develop something that's on par with the best releases on respective platforms.

Of course the graphical capabilities of the Amiga makes it easier to make something that looks kind of decent, but to actually make something that stands up to the best releases is still not trivial.

@Britelite et al

Surely there must be threads more suitable for discussing the challenges of Amiga development, or perhaps you could create a new one with this topic even? Because your discussion has nothing to do with the topic "Amiga name, assets and IP today"...

Back on topic then,....

As much as I wish I could say otherwise, my guess is roughly $27

Honestly, it's been dragged through the mud so much over the years, and has been attached to quite a few "nothing" type products that it's almost a laughing stock to those outside the circle.
Most of my computer enthusiast friends actually laugh when I talk about the amiga these days, and Im sure Im not the only one who can say that.

Even the C64 name, etc. would be worth more these days.

@Britelite

Quote:

Are you seriously suggesting that getting something decent out of an C64 doesn't require skill or effort?

Don' t misinterpret the thing ... Amiga is more advanced and powerful thus more skills are needed.

Quote:

I can, and I'm guessing you haven't programmed on either.

I programmed on both, much more on the Amiga (Commodore and NG) ... just in case you can open my profile ... so you poorly lost your bet!

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@Massi

That's a truly bizarre line of thought you have their....... Amiga is more advanced hence more skills are needed? Very backwards

By that reasoning stuff like 8088 MPH demo isn't impressive,...... it's just written for an 8bit 8088 cpu+cga,.... very, very basic hardware, so getting 1000+ colors onscreen at once must be easy, along with all the neat zoom effects and music. C64 scene demos as well.
It also suggests that Windows, Mac and Linux programming requires more skill than either.


Perhaps you want to rethink your,.... err, "logic" (chortle).

@fishy_fis

I don' t need to rethink my opinion. Perhaps you misunderstood.

Quote:

It also suggests that Windows, Mac and Linux programming requires more skill than either.

On these systems you don' t need just Assembly like on C64 ... there are plenty of programming languages, tools, APIs, concepts that you need to know because ... they are much more advanced.

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@Massi

I think this might be one of those situations where the forum medium confuses things a little.
In some ways we seem to be agreeing, in others not.

My point was simply that getting good results for something like a c64 requires more knowledge and skill of the machine than the more advanced systems.

Things like opengl, sdl, etc. require less skill and talent than directly controlling the hardware like is required on the c64.

Any moron can code for modern systems,.... theyre made to be easy to use, despite the hardware being more advanced.

Squeezing good results from a limited machine,.... now that takes skill, knowledge and dedication.

@fishy_fis

Quote:

Things like opengl, sdl, etc. require less skill and talent than directly controlling the hardware like is required on the c64.

I am now developing an audio driver for OS4, it does control the hardware ... why this requires less skill?

And I don' t think any moron as you say can for example program drivers for modern systems.

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SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, AmigaOS 4.1 Update 1

@fishy_fis

Quote:

Squeezing good results from a limited machine,.... now that takes skill, knowledge and dedication.

The Good'ol bashing metal art a la demoscene :)

However, despite the usual Easter demoparty bursts i would really like a more active Retro Classic amiga scene: i am trying to learn blitz basic to do something (takes time however, and life indeed goes in the middle), what about others here?

Last edited by saimon69 on 08-May-2015 at 06:51 PM.

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Scarabocchi Binari - Italian AROS Blog
Binary Doodles - English language AROS Blog

@Massi

Quote:

I am now developing an audio driver for OS4, it does control the hardware ... why this requires less skill?

I think Fishy is referring to less complicated programming, like apps games and demos; if writing drivers was indeed easy then the amigaworld and even the linux would not have their actual chronic problems :/

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Scarabocchi Binari - Italian AROS Blog
Binary Doodles - English language AROS Blog

@Massi

Clearly Im talking about more typical software development.
Heck even the quote you've used from me says as much.


@Saimon69

Ah, yes, I saw that thread over at eab. Pretty interesting reading. You seem to be making nice progress.