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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 15:43:01
#1441 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@cgutjahr

Quote:
How did we get from "Leaman is trying to make his own AmigaOS" to "open source is bad, people could fork!" in just one or two postings?


You completely misunderstood. Linux is open source and it is very clear who has been calling the shots from the very beginning until today. The companies behind the distributions also recognize the captain of the ship. (Linus)

For AmigaOS, everybody wants to be in charge and no-one is accepted as captain. So the open source ship will never leave the harbour. That's my point.

Quote:
First of all: so what? It already happens - just ask Mr. Amigakit.

You made it clear several times that this is your opinion. But that doesn't make it true.
Reimpementing those commands seems odd and useless. But at least it's a copy in functionaly. "Mr Amigakit" Didn't decide that the copy command should erase your harddrive because he knows better than others. A 24bit color clock seems to be a waste of effort as well. Yes, there's a new multiview. But are you trying to argue that Notepad++ shouldn't exist as a third party prog because there's already Notepad? All the other components are extensions. But "Mr. Amigakit" is not in control of the OS. So running those extensions is an option, not a fork of OS4. This situation is totally different when everybody start to write their own version of amigaos4. Imagine the mess on os4depot when certain programs and libraries only work on certain distributions or even processor architectures. See MorphOS vs AmigaOS as an extreme example.

Quote:
Open sourcing AmigaOS would be about stopping shady entities from keeping it hostage


Open sourcing will be the final nail to the coffin. The os will be at drift. There was no consensus about Hyperion as leader. There is no consensus about Aeon as leader. There will be no consensus about Cloanto as leader. The funny thing is that one of the most likely distributions will come from "Mr Amigakit" anyways. Because he has proven with enhancer that he's willing to invest. Exactly the one that you critisize so much. Let's call it karma if it happens.

That you don't agree with what either Hyperion or "Mr Amigakit" are doing is exactly why I'm talking about all those captains who know it all better. And why it will become one big mess.

Quote:
Literally anything would be better than the status quo. Not sure which events from the last three decades make you think a company "willing and able to move the platform forward" is going to show up.


I know that you have a blind spot for what Aeon has actually been doing for AmigaOS4. But the biggest improvements in the past decades came from them. They have proven to invest literaly a million+ without return of investment. They have given us faster hardware and better gfx. You have respect for HDR and that's good. But do you think that we would be here today if Aeon wasn't actually funding that development? But Captain Gutjahr (the C cannot be a coincidence ) has a different opinion and would have done things differently. Like all those captains waiting for the os4 source.

So I'm looking forward to see the Captain Gutjahr OS4 in action.

Last edited by geen_naam on 02-Jun-2021 at 07:50 PM.
Last edited by geen_naam on 02-Jun-2021 at 04:01 PM.
Last edited by geen_naam on 02-Jun-2021 at 03:59 PM.
Last edited by geen_naam on 02-Jun-2021 at 03:58 PM.

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bison 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 17:42:03
#1442 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1864
From: N-Space

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Literally anything would be better than the status quo. Not sure which events from the last three decades make you think a company "willing and able to move the platform forward" is going to show up.

Agreed. Amiga source code in the hands of another small company is just another 10 years of false hope.

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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 18:22:25
#1443 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@bison

Even the suggestion that some big company will show up is false hope either.

Trusting that all different camps and captains will suddenly agree to work together in the ooen source scenario is false hope too.

So you're suggesting that there's no hope at all.

I put my faith in those who are actually doing something at the moment.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 19:15:22
#1444 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 941
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

For AmigaOS, everybody wants to be in charge and no-one is accepted as captain.

That's simply not true - the 3.2 team has managed to come up with what looks like a very respectable release - with zero input from Hyperion or anybody else. Everything they do suggests to me there's a functioning team at work here.

It's true that there's no shortage of wannabe dictators in this market. There's two reasons for that: lack of actual leadership for more than three decades - and greed. The first one will always be a problem - for some reason, nobody wants to listen to Captain Gutjahr.

But open sourcing AmigaOS might actually address the second problem: it sends a very clear message to all the "developers need be paid" and "professional investors" and "let's be as secretive as possible" wannabe-managers that actually created this whole mess. Open sourcing AmigaOS is the equivalent of saying (amongst other things): "Let's take a step back, look at this from a technical perspective and have a honest and open conversation about what could or should be next".

Quote:

You made it clear several times that this is your opinion. But that doesn't make it true.

No, it's not my opinion. Here's what Matt posted in this very thread:

"As we have seen, agreements can be contested which puts development into jeopardy. This means that we cannot work on other entities' code base and develop it commercially as it is very unlikely we would see any financial remuneration to even cover basic costs."

Him not going to work on "other entities' code base" doesn't leave much room for speculation.

Quote:

This situation is totally different when everybody start to write their own version of amigaos4

That's the point: There will always be only one version of AmigaOS, because only one party can call its product "Amiga" OS (or at least not more parties than now). If you want to know how much difference that makes, ask the MorphOS team, who got mostly ignored ever since Bill Buck stopped handing out free Pegasos computers. Or the AROS crowd.

Quote:

There was no consenses about Hyperion as leader. There is no consensus about Aeon as leader.

You must live in a different reality than me. There always is consensus about who's the leader - until they #### up really, really bad. For about a decade or so. Then, maybe, some people will start to express their concern by no longer adding dancing bananas to everything they post here.

Quote:

But do you think that we would be here today if Aeon wasn't actually funding that development?

Define "here"? We still can't play HD video unless we sacrifice a lamb first, we still have a graphics subsystem from the stoneage despite plans being made a decade and a half ago to fix that - and instead of an open industry standard, we are using a proprietary solution for our 3D API. Plus, anybody who wants to use uptodate drivers is forced to finance Amigakit's wannabe OS replacement.

The fact that we still have experienced and motivated people like Hans (and maybe a dozen more devs) and abuse them like that - or worse, prevent them from contributing at all, for some extremely stupid reason - should anger you more than it angers me.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 19:34:39
#1445 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11235
From: In the village

@geen_naam

Just another quick note.

We have a business here "Amikit". Jan prolly wonders how he got dragged into this discussion. heh.

Perhaps for clarity we should stop using Amigakit, Amikit, A-eon, etc. interchangeably?
Not to mention the references to A-eonkit...

I'm not going to call Amiga Inc. "leader", but historically Hyperion and Eyetech were the Amigaone Partners and Amiga Inc. was tasked as the management arm of the triad.
At that point there was at least a hope of management equating to leadership.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 02-Jun-2021 at 07:40 PM.

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amigakit 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 20:39:06
#1446 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2412
From: www.amigakit.com

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Define "here"? We still can't play HD video unless we sacrifice a lamb first,


HD Video works perfectly fine since the Video Acceleration Library was introduced in the Enhancer Software. The retail price of the Enhancer Software is hardly akin to sacraficing a lamb.

Quote:
we still have a graphics subsystem from the stoneage despite plans being made a decade and a half ago to fix that -


The graphics library from AmigaOS is a 1980s design and I agree with you that it is archaic. Hans has worked around this.

Quote:
and instead of an open industry standard, we are using a proprietary solution for our 3D API. Plus, anybody who wants to use uptodate drivers is forced to finance Amigakit's wannabe OS replacement.


Clearly you do not understand the costs and scope of development.

Your assertions are not factually correct: 100 percent of the revenues of the Enhancer Software goes to finance the 2D/3D graphics sub systems and drivers. AK-Datatypes, system commands and some gadgets have been contributed to the Enhancer Software by AmigaKit Ltd at no cost. The other items are funded by A-EON using other revenues. It would be a mistake to think that significant graphics development in this small market would be fully funded by the ticket price Enhancer Software. Why do you think other parties have not funded this development instead ? A hint: six figure costs may have something to do with it...

Quote:
The fact that we still have experienced and motivated people like Hans


Why do you think Hans is motivated and focussed on a development plan?

Hans has been a beneficiary of everyone that pays for an Enhancer Software licence. This is no doubt a major factor motivating him to further improve the graphics system. Without this commercial model it is likely that some developers who work on the Enhancer Software would leave.

[quote[ (and maybe a dozen more devs) and abuse them like that - or worse, prevent them from contributing at all, for some extremely stupid reason - should anger you more than it angers me.[/quote]

None of our developers are being "abused": they receive remuneration and are free to contribute if they so wish. We don't expect any free lunches.

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BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 21:31:13
#1447 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5893
From: UK

@number6

Quote:
I'm not going to call Amiga Inc. "leader", but historically Hyperion and Eyetech were the Amigaone Partners and Amiga Inc. was tasked as the management arm of the triad. At that point there was at least a hope of management equating to leadership.


Amiga Inc should not be used in the same sentence as ‘leadership’. They went about spending Pentti Kouri’s investment and the only thing of note produced from them was a Christmas Card maker! They were a joke and deserved to lose control of AmigaOS IMHO. They couldn’t even secure the Workbench 3.1 sources for Hyperion to work from! They did manage to commission some lovely Amiga branded mugs though!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:07:35
#1448 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11826
From: Norway

@BigD

When they talk about Amiga Inc, they tend to forget about coupon scam, T- Shirts that was never delivered.

Amiga Inc was no angles.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:08 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:13:30
#1449 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

geen_naam Quote:

You completely misunderstood. Linux is open source and it is very clear who has been calling the shots from the very beginning until today. The companies behind the distributions also recognize the captain of the ship. (Linus)

For AmigaOS, everybody wants to be in charge and no-one is accepted as captain. So the open source ship will never leave the harbour. That's my point.


The owner of the AmigaOS ship is now Michele Battilana even if the pirate Ben Hermans has tried to steal the ship after it was loaned to him by the previous owner. The owner of the ship is allowed to appoint (hire) the captain. It would be a good idea to discuss how the ship might make money before setting sail though. It will likely require investment to prepare and outfit the ship prior to the voyage. Investors should get some say in their investment.

geen_naam Quote:

You made it clear several times that this is your opinion. But that doesn't make it true.
Reimplementing those commands seems odd and useless. But at least it's a copy in functionality. "Mr Amikit" Didn't decide that the copy command should erase your harddrive because he knows better than others. A 24bit color clock seems to be a waste of effort as well. Yes, there's a new multiview. But are you trying to argue that Notepad++ shouldn't exist as a third party prog because there's already Notepad? All the other components are extensions. But "Mr. Amikit" is not in control of the OS. So running those extensions is an option, not a fork of OS4. This situation is totally different when everybody start to write their own version of amigaos4. Imagine the mess on os4depot when certain programs and libraries only work on certain distributions or even processor architectures. See MorphOS vs AmigaOS as an extreme example.


AmiKit is a 68k Amiga distribution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmiKit

The AmigaKit Enhancer Software is fine until new functionality is added to AmigaOS modules with the same name. Hyperion may enhance the modules in a different way in the future causing incompatibility as only a minimum library number is asked for but the two modules may have different functionality. This has the disadvantages of a fork. AmigaOS 3.2 could be thought of as a fork of AmigaOS 4 too. Even though the API is becoming closer, they will likely not converge completely. This means some modules will be incompatible (at the source level) with a disadvantage similar to a fork. Porting AmigaOS 4 to another architecture like ARM and making it a proper NG desktop OS would also mean a different API with a similar disadvantage to forking. At least MorphOS called their OS something other than AmigaOS although they made the same mistake of not updating the AmigaOS API for modern desktop features from the start. It is easier and cheaper to develop for a single architecture and standard hardware than multiple architectures and a wide range of hardware. Expanding AmigaOS development to more architectures and adding modern desktop features are a dream of many Amiga fans but this is really difficult and likely not profitable anyway. There aren't very many profitable OSs, especially on the desktop.

geen_naam Quote:

Open sourcing will be the final nail to the coffin. The os will be at drift. There was no consensus about Hyperion as leader. There is no consensus about Aeon as leader. There will be no consensus about Cloanto as leader. The funny thing is that one of the most likely distributions will come from "Mr Amikit" anyways. Because he has proven with enhancer that he's willing to invest. Exactly the one that you critisize so much. Let's call it karma if it happens.

That you don't agree with what either Hyperion or "Mr Amikit" are doing is exactly why I'm talking about all those captains who know it all better. And why it will become one big mess.


I would like to see the AmigaOS source open but with a license which discourages forks. I believe this is possible as that is the way the vbcc compiler is. I would not have helped develop that project if the source was not open and I believe this is true for others too. You have complained about lack of documentation for AmigaOS drivers in another thread and how the existing ones were behind a NDA wall. I don't believe open sourcing the Amiga would mean chaos (even though the Amiga evolved from CaOS which ironically had resource tracking). It would be helpful if a management and standards committee was created for a more open AmigaOS.

geen_naam Quote:

I know that you have a blind spot for what Aeon has actually been doing for AmigaOS4. But the biggest improvements in the past decades came from them. They have proven to invest literaly a million+ without return of investment. They have given us faster hardware and better gfx. You have respect for HDR and that's good. But do you think that we would be here today if Aeon wasn't actually funding that development? But Captain Gutjahr (the C cannot be a coincidence ) has a different opinion and would have done things differently. Like all those captains waiting for the os4 source.


Trevor Dickinson has likely been investing in the Amiga with the hope to turn it around, make it profitable and proliferate the Amiga. That is what investors try to do instead of looking for a tax deduction which is just a consequence of the failures. While his efforts should be appreciated for the benefits to Amiga users, I doubt they have been successful and likely can't continue indefinitely. It is very difficult for niche market computer hardware manufacturers to survive. Economies of scale are too important for computer hardware.

geen_naam Quote:

Even the suggestion that some big company will show up is false hope either.

Trusting that all different camps and captains will suddenly agree to work together in the open source scenario is false hope too.

So you're suggesting that there's no hope at all.

I put my faith in those who are actually doing something at the moment.


In my opinion, there is not much value in the AmigaOS by itself and especially on the desktop because it can't be sold for much and isn't competitive. There is value is in the Amiga brand, the Amiga community (users and developers), the AmigaOS embedded in products and in Amiga 68k games for the retro (toy) market. There may be value in the embedded market for very small footprint systems.

The Amiga businesses will likely continue stepping on each others feet as separate businesses like they are doing now. They would be better off pooling their resources and working together. If the Amiga brand is put back together, the cooperators should consider a merger as "Amiga Corporation" along with allowing others investors to buy stock. They do need to decide where the ship will sail and the route to get to there.

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bison 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:29:56
#1450 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1864
From: N-Space

@geen_naam

Quote:
So you're suggesting that there's no hope at all.

Your straw man said that, not me.

My hope is that Amiga Corporation prevails in court and releases the source code. Mike Battilana has already indicated that he would be open to doing that.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:45:00
#1451 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11826
From: Norway

@matthey

I wonder if there is any chance for two companies can be forced to merge, by some government. I know it happens to banks from time to time.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 22:46:19
#1452 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11826
From: Norway

@bison

Yes make it free, so that he does need to pay developers. Make just like AROS, no founding. kill it off, more abandonware for Cloanto to sell on his Amiga for never CD

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:55 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:50 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Jun-2021 at 10:48 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 23:18:36
#1453 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

I wonder if there is any chance for two companies can be forced to merge, by some government. I know it happens to banks from time to time.


Forced mergers or buyouts are very rare here in the U.S. I did not think it was legal here until the 2008/2009 mortgage crisis when the banks in the best financial shape were practically forced to buy bad mortgage originators. They should have stood up against regulators and told them no as it wasn't worth it but the regulators likely would have bailed them out if necessary and practically did with nearly forced loans too. Crazy stuff for a supposedly capitalist nation like the U.S. Other nations with more micro-managed economies do force mergers and buyouts to strengthen businesses so they compete globally better. Japan comes to mind. Mazda had to do some political maneuvering at one time to remain independent when the government decided they didn't make the cut of biggest and most competitive automobile manufacturers.

Last edited by matthey on 02-Jun-2021 at 11:49 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 7:37:38
#1454 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1789
From: Trondheim, Norway

I don’t care if open sourcing means even more “forking”, we already got plenty of that going on. I just want to be able to do everything myself, for myself, without insane licensing conditions, without having to sign any NDA or adhere to whacky ideas by certain “official” developers. It won’t “hurt” anyone, since I have absolutely zero plans of distributing my own builds, since that would also result in support requests which I have neither time nor interest in. Anyone interested my changes, could just pick commits from my source repos if they wish. This is what open source is about - freedom. Not “business” or “product development” - F dat sh!t.

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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 8:43:50
#1455 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@cgutjahr

Quote:
That's simply not true - the 3.2 team has managed to come up with what looks like a very respectable release - with zero input from Hyperion or anybody else. Everything they do suggests to me there's a functioning team at work here

I haven't followed the release of 3.2 closely but isn't it true that a large part of OS3.2 is actually a backport of os4 code? In that case Hyperion was definitly involved in the direction.

You say that a team was able to create a respectable 3.2 release. But they did that while operating under the wings of Hyperion. Doesn't this contradict with the "popular believe" that the OS is held hostage? And that the open source discussion is redundant?

Quote:
for some reason, nobody wants to listen to Captain Gutjahr.


lol! Selfmockery. I like that. Should be done more often on aw.net

Quote:
"Let's take a step back, look at this from a technical perspective and have a honest and open conversation about what could or should be next"


I have no indication that the captains suddenly come to their senses and start working together. I fear that it's equal to handing out the holy grail and all the captains will go full Smeagol mode on it.

But when you say power to the engineers instead of to the managers than I'm with you. But I don't think the amiga world is mature enough given the continued fighting, bickering and bitterness.

Quote:
Him not going to work on "other entities' code base" doesn't leave much room for speculation.


It depends on your view I guess. The way I read this is that he doesn't want to get dragged into the legal mess. And that's a wise decision imho.


Quote:
If you want to know how much difference that makes, ask the MorphOS team, who got mostly ignored ever since Bill Buck stopped handing out free Pegasos computers. Or the AROS crowd.


The brand surely played a role back than. But I'm not entirely convinced that that's the only factor in play here.

AROS was amigaos3.0 at best and ran on intel x86. Intel was an issue for a lot of people back then. Half if not more of the amiga's had an intel outside sticker attached to it
I remember that Amithlon was gaining a lot of momentum. Not sure why they had to stop. But the link to AMD in the name instead of intel was enough for a lot of people to give it a try. We amigans like underdogs apparently

MorphOS had some very unlikeable followers (including BBRV) posting unacceptable things in fora (calling Amigaos4 developers "code monkeys" for example). And there was the childish Moobunny. At least for me that was the reason to go to the red camp. Not MorphOS being "unofficial" per se.



Quote:
You must live in a different reality than me. There always is consensus about who's the leader


The mere existance of MorphOS proves the opposite. Hyperion and Bill McEwen's AmigaInc for that matter were never accepted as the leaders. Going forward with PPC and Hyperion as the one providing AmigaOS4 has torn the community into a classic, red and blue camp right from the start.


Quote:
We still can't play HD video unless we sacrifice a lamb first, we still have a graphics subsystem from the stoneage despite plans being made a decade and a half ago to fix that


HD movies play just fine on my X5000 with Radeon RX560 and RX570 cards. Virtually no CPU load either. Seems that you have some catching up to do.

Quote:
And instead of an open industry standard, we are using a proprietary solution for our 3D API. Plus, anybody who wants to use uptodate drivers is forced to finance Amigakit's wannabe OS replacement.


H&P, (also subject to community wars were some people liked to call them Hack&Patch) provided us with OpenGL as a third party. This industry standard also ran on top of warp3d iirc. We have miniGL. A popular subset op opengl back in the days. We have OpenGL ES2. This is an industry standard as well. And nothing is holding the community back from porting OpenGL3 or Vulkan to AmigaOS. It will run perfectly well on top of Warp3Dnova. But I do ask myself why those dormant OpenGL porters will suddenly start working on it if/once AmigaOS is open sourced. Afterall, they do not need the source for AmigaOS to do this. But let's wait an see what happens.

Quote:
lus, anybody who wants to use uptodate drivers is forced to finance Amigakit's wannabe OS replacement.


You do realise that the revenue gained from Enhancer is used to fund the development of those 3D drivers and APIs?

But since when is it unusual to pay for quality software in the first place? I remember having to pay for Cybergraphics, P96, MUI, DOpus and so on. Directory Opus was even cabaple to run as a Workbench replacement. And I never heard anyone complaining that those coders were trying to overwrite the OS with their own OS components.

Quote:
The fact that we still have experienced and motivated people like Hans (and maybe a dozen more devs) and abuse them like that - or worse, prevent them from contributing at all, for some extremely stupid reason - should anger you more than it angers me.


I have no indication that Enhancer coders are being abused. As a matter of facts, some of them are paid quite handsomely considering amiga standards. Part of it is possible due to Enhancer sales revenue.

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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 8:44:28
#1456 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@number6

Noted and corrected.

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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 9:10:21
#1457 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@matthey

Quote:
The owner of the AmigaOS ship is now Michele Battilana even if the pirate Ben Hermans has tried to steal the ship after it was loaned to him by the previous owner.


Afaik, this is the main subject of the lawsuit. So this is not a fact (yet)

Quote:
AmiKit is a 68k Amiga distribution.

Noted and corrected. (Maybe people should come up with originals names instad. All the ami- amiga-, -kit combinations are very confusing . )

Quote:
I would like to see the AmigaOS source open but with a license which discourages forks.


In that case people will make derivative work and decline that it's based on the original source code. It has happened before already. I like to have faith in the amiga community as a whole. But hystory tought me otherwise.

Quote:
It would be helpful if a management and standards committee was created for a more open AmigaOS.


LOL. The community will even fight over whether the right persons are in that commitee. And of course when different camps are invited then I can already forsee news items that captain x is leaving the comittee because he doesn't agree with captain Y. Captain X will take his followers with him and start their own fork.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions and if only os3.1 is open sourced I wish everybody involved good luck. But given the amigas hystory, I clearly have a different opinion on this matter.

Quote:
Trevor Dickinson has likely been investing in the Amiga with the hope to turn it around, make it profitable and proliferate the Amiga.


Trevor has stated multiple times that he did it for the love of his hobby. He never expected a return of investement.

Quote:
There is value is in the Amiga brand, the Amiga community (users and developers), the AmigaOS embedded in products and in Amiga 68k games for the retro (toy) market. There may be value in the embedded market for very small footprint systems.


A value to whom? Some remember commodore (64). Nobody outside current and formers users remember the amiga brand.

Amiga 68k games are not owned by AmigaInc. And you do not need amigaos sources to run those classic games. They run perfectly well on UAE directly with a licencened kickstart.

I cannot imagine anybody wanting to use amigaos on embedded devices. We have linux (with Qt) and FreeRTOS (with LVGL) for that.

Quote:
They would be better off pooling their resources and working together.

True, but this will not happen for the reasons stated above.

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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 9:41:59
#1458 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@bison

Quote:
My hope is that Amiga Corporation prevails in court and releases the source code. Mike Battilana has already indicated that he would be open to doing that.

I do not know Mike Battilana and I'm sure he's a nice guy with good intentions. But as the saying goes: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Number6 pointed me to this website. I read this text as an admission that he's done nothing for the amiga and personally won't do anything in the future either. His business is the emulator business. Advancing amigaos is not his ambition. But if others want to do so he's fine with it. (probably because it might benefit his emulator business.)

Thanks to you comment I now visualize him as a straw man waving the white flag while handing out the source code of amigaOS.

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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 9:43:18
#1459 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Yes make it free, so that he does need to pay developers. Make just like AROS, no founding. kill it off, more abandonware for Cloanto to sell on his Amiga for never CD

Exactly. But somehow this is not taking advantages of people willing to work for free.

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OlafS25 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 9:54:09
#1460 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5860
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

just a short comment...

as I understood the discussions 4.X code was used but also rewritten and improved. If a phrase like "large parts" is justified can only be answered by the involved developers but I do not think so. 3.2 is not designed as 4.X on 68k.

The second comment... always the discussions that open source is bad because it can be branched. Yes it can but as long the changes stay open all platforms can benefit. Take Aros as example... there is now the official main branch and the Vampire branch, One of the dev on main branch already said they would backport changes to the main branch and that it makes sense to have a seperate 68k branch that tests it on existing software. The requirements on 68k and "NG" are very different. One branch is not always advantage. On Open source general, if you have open source, some sort of foundation or something owned by a company, you need devs who are willing to contribute. To have something open makes it much easier to join than something closed. And if f.e. a company comes in financial trouble the OS is not affected (if open source). Assuming Cloanto wins it has to be seen what happens. I assume Mike B. already has ideas but all that depends on the court.

My idea always would have been all involved parties come at one table and agree to work together. The foundation should be identical on all platforms with common api and infrastructure (RTG, network, USB, PCI, drivers...) that is improved together and everyone creates its own desktop. That would have avoided wasting resources and improved that platform. But that became more and more difficult because all platforms head in different directions technically and will for a number of reasons not happen...

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Jun-2021 at 10:00 AM.

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