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TRIPOS 
Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 18:49:26
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

Many of us raised our eyebrows when it became known that Cloanto had bought the Commodore Amiga copyrights (among other Commodore IP) and began selling slightly updated versions of Workbench 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1 as a complement to their Amiga Forever package. What could it mean that Cloanto is now the owner of the Amiga copyrights, that even Amiga Inc had to get a license from Cloanto to use OS components, instead of the other way around?

One thing it meant was a Hyperion on the warpath. In October last year Hyperion released a Workbench 3.1 product, even using the "Workbench" trademark that is owned by Cloanto. An obvious offensive attack, which resulted in Cloanto immediately pulled the UAE OS4.1 PowerUP product from their web store, and responded to the infringement as well, causing Hyperion to remove it (but they left the Kickstart, which is kind of telling). So a conflict was obvious, causing Cloanto to react on trademark infringement (and possibly copyright infringement as well). Recently it became known that Cloanto is on their way of securing the Amiga trademark as well, which caused Ben Hermans not only to stall it/formally oppose it, but also to try to file for trademark registrations of the Cloanto marks "Workbench" and "Amiga Forever" in other jurisdictions. It's now obvious that the conflict is indeed an open war.

When that war is over, when the dust settles, a new Amiga Landscape may very well become visible. Does any of you realize that?

Cloanto owns the copyright to the OS which has been used to build OS4. There is no way of stripping Cloanto's property from OS4, the 3.1 is literally the bricks used in the foundation on which OS4 has been built. Cloanto will most certainly own the Amiga trademark soon as well.

In this context it becomes interesting to listen to what Olaf "Olsen" Barthel has to say about the past, present and future situation of the OS. Olsen is the key developer (the only developer?) of the "Boing Ball Branch":


(Click for big picture)


In essence, you could say that Olaf Barthel molded the "Boing Ball Bricks" from the "Commodore Checkmark Clay", the very bricks used as a foundation for any post-Commodore OS building based on the Commodore Copyrighted IP. You will find his posts I'm referring to in the very interesting "Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA" thread.

So, about the past, present and future, Olaf Barthel said (and I quote): "the Amiga as a hobby, and as something to care for, went wrong, and this cannot and should not stand". In other words, something is broken and needs to be fixed.

AFAIK, some (much?) of the IP on top of 3.1 that constitutes "OS4" is owned by more or less unpaid developers, let's call them "those who currently take care of the operating system" (Hyperion is merely a Publisher). Also, many are the developers who left the OS4 effort over the years, not always under happy circumstances.

My interpretation of what he is saying in that thread is that he suggests approaching "those who currently take care of the operating system" and present to them a future plan, a future they can buy into and accept. On a very long term (explicitly: not now), his vision of a sustainable long term future even includes an Open Source option, but again, that's very distant.

The thing is that Cloanto has approached developers directly before in order to circumvent a stalled publisher. Establishing copyright licenses directly with individual developers was how they managed to circumvent the legal/license nightmare situation concerning H&P's stalled and revoked 3.9 and save everything that is now available in their Workbench 3.X product (in other words: their take on 3.9+).

So who knows, when the war ends and the dust settles, maybe there will still be a future for an "OS4"? With a secured Amiga trademark, maybe it will even be called "Amiga OS", not by a robbed license but by the very owner of the OS? Maybe all IP will once again (after two decades of something that "went wrong, and this cannot and should not stand") be gathered under one single umbrella, held by a stable, good-hearted entity that the entire community could trust and evidently has proven its love for the platform since the first release of "Amiga Forever" in 1997, and years before that as a S/W developer for the same platform?

Barthel seems to be of the opinion that there is still money to be made from Amiga IP, which could be true, but that doesn't mean that enough money could be made to carry the cost of commercial development by full-time (or even part-time) paid developers. He says: "You can see the results of that lack of money play out", and "the operating system will need to be maintained, and it becomes harder and harder to find the people who can do this job by hiring them or through consulting gigs", and "Payment is always welcome, but you still need to make a product worth paying for, and somebody willing to spend on it". Maybe development could be done in a similar way as done in the MorphOS cooperative?

If not, it's good to know that the platform as a whole has three other legs to stand on...



However, in the discussion with references to Barthel above, I just realized I simply assumed that he spoke about both 3.1 and OS4 in his posts (because of his current affiliation with Hyperion), but it could be that Barthel didn't include OS4 at all in his discussions about "the operating system", and only spoke about 3.1 (maybe he has no personal interest in OS4)? There are some things suggesting that, including a direct mentioning of 3.1 in at least one of his posts!

One plausible outcome will indeed be that we end up with:

  • 1a) Workbench 1.3 / 2.1 / 3.1 "Checkmark Branch", meaning more or less untouched Commodore OS's for the 68k preservationist retro enthusiasts (collecting "the real", mint, untouched Commodore H/W, wanting the real Commodore Workbench, or emulationists wanting the same thing)

  • 1b) Workbench 3.X (or perhaps indeed "Amiga OS" when Cloanto's Amiga(TM) registration is finished, given the post-Commodore positioning of the product?), meaning a maintained, improved and further developed 68k OS, once again with an evolving version numbering (by Barthel and others?) for the 68k evolutionist retro enthusiasts (owners of old "Franken-miga" beasts, emulationists, Apollo users or users of other FPGA projects, etc)

  • 2) AROS, for anyone favoring Open Source or whatever features of AROS that appeals to them, like multi platform, steps towards true Next Generation, etc

  • 3) MorphOS, the most polished and feature rich Next Generation option that also has a path beyond PPC towards true Next Generation, etc


I'd be fine with that as well! That would about fully cover every single need in the Amiga platform IMHO!




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cgutjahr 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 19:08:51
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

That must be the longest flamebait in the history of flamebaits - I even copied it into my text editor to get a word count (1153 - impressive).

Guys, don't discuss OS4 with Takemehomegrandma.

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Amiboy 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 19:15:06
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Dec-2003
Posts: 1036
From: At home (probably)

@cgutjahr

Somethings telling me this thread could go one of two ways......neither of them necesserily good.

_________________
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iggy 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 19:30:41
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Guys, don't discuss OS4 with Takemehomegrandma.


What in the world has a MorphOS enthusiast got to do with this hot mess?
Hyperion and Cloanto are like two dogs fighting over a well worn bone, but it doesn't affect MorphOS, except for the potential need for 3.1 roms for UAE (both now, and especially when the OS migrates to X64 and loses legacy capabilities).

The only people that need to worry about this situation are those pinning their hopes on OS4.1, 4.2, or any future Hyperion development.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 20:58:53
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11927
From: Norway

@iggy

But I think some people like to have source code for free, so that developer can write code for free, so this people don't need to pay for anything, they don't care if the development stops, because the developer is forced to spend time on other things.

I think this people are happy to see anything AmigaOS implode, make you wonder if they are really Atari users with Amiga vendetta.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jun-2017 at 09:04 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jun-2017 at 09:01 PM.

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Rob 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 21:01:17
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6079
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=41775&forum=2&start=180&viewmode=flat&order=0#798535

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Rob 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 21:03:36
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6079
From: S.Wales

@cgutjahr

Quote:
That must be the longest flamebait in the history of flamebaits - I even copied it into my text editor to get a word count (1153 - impressive).


I put it through a translator and it came out as "waah, waah, OS4 sucks".

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 22:16:38
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

I think it's kind of impressive to count the words to realize there are 1153 of them, only to dismiss it all without actually reading any of it.

Thanks for your valuable contribution.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 22:21:32
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@Amiboy

Quote:

Amiboy wrote:
@cgutjahr

Somethings telling me this thread could go one of two ways......neither of them necesserily good.


Kind of funny how you comment about the existence of the thread instead of what's being discussed.

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iggy 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 22:22:39
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I think this people are happy to see anything AmigaOS implode


Its more like some people just want to see Ben Hermans suffer, but they fail to realize that the OS4 situation affects the end users as well.

Either way, I'll still be able to buy 3.1 roms, so...

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 22:25:29
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@iggy

Are you telling us what I am allowed to talk about based on your perception of my interests?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 22:37:11
#12 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@TRIPOS

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=41775&forum=2&start=180&viewmode=flat&order=0#798535


1) In 2012 perhaps? http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-02-00027-EN.html

2) You are obviously asking the wrong guy...



Quote:
Quote:
That must be the longest flamebait in the history of flamebaits - I even copied it into my text editor to get a word count (1153 - impressive).


I put it through a translator and it came out as "waah, waah, OS4 sucks".


You don't agree with the analysis of the current situation? You don't agree with any of the links that was used as reference? You don't agree with the mentioned plausible outcomes? Or are you just trolling?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 22:58:11
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I think this people are happy to see anything AmigaOS implode


Its more like some people just want to see Ben Hermans suffer, but they fail to realize that the OS4 situation affects the end users as well.


In case you missed it, the aim of the original post was to describe the present situation and to present some plausible options of a future. If you don't agree, feel fre to contribute with your view, that's what discussion forums are for. But please don't try to pin any "suffering" on me, I'm just describing the situation here, not causing it. Any and all misery of Amiga, the stagnation, the lack of a realistic and sustainable future, etc during the last 15 years is signed Ben Hermans, Hyperion and Amiga Inc. Don't shoot the messenger!

Maybe this situation can lead to something positive for the platform in the end?



Quote:
Either way, I'll still be able to buy 3.1 roms, so...


Of course, and not only the ROM's in various shapes and forms, the whole OS is available, several versions of it (including workbench.library and icon.library):

http://www.vesalia.de/e_kickstart%5B8707%5D.htm
http://www.vesalia.de/e_workbench31%5B8568%5D.htm
http://www.vesalia.de/e_workbench31cfedition%5B8561%5D.htm

Etc, etc...

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Rob 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 23:04:30
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6079
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

Quote:
1) In 2012 perhaps? http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-02-00027-EN.html


It mentions Cloanto's ownership of copyrights but nothing about IP being transferred to them and it was the IP I was challenging you about.

Quote:
2) You are obviously asking the wrong guy...


You're the one constantly trying to assert that you have the final authority on the facts, not some other guy.

Quote:
You don't agree with the analysis of the current situation?


I didn't even bother reading your post because you constantly bang the drum to the same tune. Your motivation for this obsessive compulsive posting of the same narrative and info-graphic is deep dislike of various people involved in the Amiga scene. You constantly need to post the same old story here to reassure yourself in your opinion that OS4 isn't a legitimate Amiga product.

Nobody else cares that much, we're just bored of the same old post being recycled over and over. It's long overdue the time that you realise you should just move on and enjoy the aspects of the Amiga scene that you enjoy and ignore those that you don't.

Last edited by Rob on 11-Jun-2017 at 11:04 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 23:05:23
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11927
From: Norway

@TRIPOS

I'm pretty sure there lot blame to trowed around. We are ally good at that in this community.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jun-2017 at 11:05 PM.

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number6 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 23:15:14
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Ben Hermans not only to stall it/formally oppose it, but also to try to file for trademark registrations of the Cloanto marks "Workbench" and "Amiga Forever" in other jurisdictions.


I suppose I owe you a response to:

this

While euipo and benelux are "other jurisdictions", I believe you have to look at them differently.

Cloanto's filing for euipo trademark (Workbench):
Registration date
11/01/2017

Source

Hyperion's filing for euipo trademark (Workbench):
Date of receipt
17/05/2017

Source

but...

Hyperion's filing for benelux trademark (Workbench):
Number, date and time of the filing
1345798 30-12-2016 , 17.51

Source

Don't ask me how an earlier filing for Benelux would or would not affect the other filings. That's for a trademark attorney to answer.

Minor trademark updates

#6

Last edited by number6 on 12-Jun-2017 at 12:24 AM.
Last edited by number6 on 11-Jun-2017 at 11:36 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 11-Jun-2017 23:21:42
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:
1) In 2012 perhaps? http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-02-00027-EN.html


It mentions Cloanto's ownership of copyrights but nothing about IP being transferred to them and it was the IP I was challenging you about.


Having heard you say that, it would be interesting to hear your definition of "Intellectual Property"?


Quote:
Quote:
You don't agree with the analysis of the current situation?


Your motivation for this obsessive compulsive posting of the same narrative and info-graphic is deep dislike of various people involved in the Amiga scene.


Is the picture erroneous in any way? Something I should correct? I have corrected errors in it on numerous occasions, so personally I actually feel it's quite accurate by now, but please feel free to contribute.

If it's indeed correct, maybe you should meditate a bit why you are using the words "deep dislike" to describe it...

Last edited by TRIPOS on 12-Jun-2017 at 12:10 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 12-Jun-2017 0:00:45
#18 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:

While euipo and benelux are "other jurisdictions", I believe you have to look at them differently.


Having a registered, well established trademark for a certain type of products (for a recognizable time) in one jurisdiction, usually brings pretty solid ground for opposition if a competitor tries to register the very same trademark for the very same kind of products elsewhere. Trade is global these days, and I'm sure there has been plenty of sales of both "Amiga Forever" and "Workbench" in whatever jurisdiction Ben Hermans choses for his Hybrid Warfare attacks.

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iggy 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 12-Jun-2017 0:11:21
#19 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Are you telling us what I am allowed....


NEVER, you carry right on.
my only point was that I really don't hold a stake in this.

Your opinions I'm sure you'll explain.

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Rob 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 12-Jun-2017 4:16:58
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6079
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

Quote:

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@TRIPOS

[quote]1) In 2012 perhaps? http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-02-00027-EN.html


It mentions Cloanto's ownership of copyrights but nothing about IP being transferred to them and it was the IP I was challenging you about.


Having heard you say that, it would be interesting to hear your definition of "Intellectual Property"?

IP is technology and ideas. The article you link talks about licenses, copyright, and trademarks that Cloanto have acquired. There is nothing in the article to suggest that they have acquired ownership of the IP behind the Amiga OS. You have been trying to assert that Cloanto own the Amiga OS IP for a while now but so far have only been able to point to an article that doesn't even suggest that to be the case let alone categorically state that.

I am perfectly happy to accept that Cloanto own said IP if you can prove it.

Hyperion currently have a license to the Amiga OS source code from Amiga Inc. That is fact and can easily be verified with publicly available court documents. Can you point me to a verified news story about the sale or transfer of ownership of the source code from Amiga Inc to Cloanto or, for that matter, a statement as much from Michael Battilana?

Last edited by Rob on 12-Jun-2017 at 06:12 AM.

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