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FairBoy 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 8:10:54
#81 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2020
Posts: 50
From: Unknown

@Trixie
Quote:
@cgutjahr
Quote:
Thank god developing a commercial OS project from scratch isn't "complicated"...

Remember that the information about A-EON developing "their own operating system" is still based on speculation.

His very own speculation, to be precise and fair.

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agami 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 8:46:45
#82 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 719
From: Melbourne, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
Why don’t they buy out Hyperion

Because Hyperion's sell price is too high. It actually costs less money to develop/implement a different OS for the A-Eon HW. Though of course it takes a lot of time.

That said, I'm here for it. Bring it on. If I were running A-Eon, I would've looked to distance myself from Hyperion and their courtroom ways, way back when. It doesn't pay to have your business hitched to an entity that doesn't share your vision.

I would've gone down the AROS path. It's OK to have MorphOS compatible HW: It increases the target market. But if I wanted more control over the overall experience, and if I wanted to get some form of SMP or AMP into the OS so that the developers and users can take better advantage of the HW I'm producing, then I'd get an A-Eon AROS distro going.

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agami 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 8:51:57
#83 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 719
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Rose

Quote:
Amiga Liberation Front of Cardiff OS 4.2

Or is it Cardiff Liberation Front for Amiga?

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OlafS25 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 10:12:52
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5976
From: Unknown

@agami

of course they could use Aros as technical base if they want. The only price they would have to accept that they give back changes if they improve existing components/routines. If they add something it could be kept closed. I think it is fair. I do not know why they really want to recreate every wheel what they have to if they want to have something "clean room". Or they base it on 4.X installation but then what is the benefit? I really do not understand the strategy behind.

Of course it is difficult if you have no trust in the only entity offering you the OS you need for your hardware. Hardly anyone will buy X5000 just to run Linux and MorphOS on it. Also very strange to me that they obviously no longer have licenses to AmigaOS. What do they want to install on Tabor then?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 06-Jul-2021 at 10:16 AM.

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cgutjahr 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 11:46:38
#85 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@Trixie

Quote:

Remember that the information about A-EON developing "their own operating system" is still based on speculation.

"Enhancer available as a bootable system image"
"partiton [should be named] 'SystemV54:'"
"select the boot partition where you installed SystemV54"
"the OS4.1 files are complementing the main Enhancer Software System"

Seriously, they are storing the OS4 files they still need in a drawer called 'Legacy' - it's not like they're using a stealthy approach. Is this a case of "don't believe your lying eyes!"?

Famous last words: "That can't be real, they can't be that dumb!?"

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cgutjahr 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 12:05:49
#86 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

it happens to be my favorite color paint program

Of course it is. Honestly, I should have seen that one coming...

Quote:

I just think that there was intervening issues of which you are not aware

Well, obviously. I certainly didn't mean to imply they withheld it for nine years out of boredom. But let's not pretend a whole bunch of totally unexpected issues kept creeping up for nine years please.

Having five developers taking care of 328 software projects might be one of the issues? Deciding you need to create another closed source fork of AmigaOS probably wasn't kind to their resources either. Also: it's the Friedens - you do know what you're getting into when hiring the Friedens to port a big piece of software. We did an extensive field study on that two years before LibreOffice was announced. It was called "Timberwolf".

But even if all of this was out of their hands - the silent treatment is stupid. Last time AEONkit addressed LO was in 2018 (when I asked during Trevor's AmiWest Q&A), IIRC. The last public appearance was a presentation by AEONkits arch enemy at Amiga 34 in 2019.

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matthey 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 12:25:38
#87 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1287
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

That said, I'm here for it. Bring it on. If I were running A-Eon, I would've looked to distance myself from Hyperion and their courtroom ways, way back when. It doesn't pay to have your business hitched to an entity that doesn't share your vision.


But was it A-Eon's financial support of "Hyperion and their courtroom ways" which freed the PPC AmigaOS from Amiga Inc. for them to use? How did Hyperion go from being so poor that they needed rescuing by Amiga Inc. cash payments beyond the contract agreement to turning around and nuking from orbit the business partner that saved them?

agami Quote:

I would've gone down the AROS path. It's OK to have MorphOS compatible HW: It increases the target market. But if I wanted more control over the overall experience, and if I wanted to get some form of SMP or AMP into the OS so that the developers and users can take better advantage of the HW I'm producing, then I'd get an A-Eon AROS distro going.


Amiga Corporation has rights to use AmigaOS sources up to AmigaOS 3.1 and has been talking about open sourcing anyway (open sourcing may *not* mean free to use though). Amiga Corporation, A-Eon and AmigaKit together could provide most of an enhanced AmigaOS. AROS is a valuable resource for what it is missing but AmigaOS is more efficient and compatible.

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thinkchip 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 13:22:10
#88 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1175
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@NutsAboutAmiga

I don't know a lot about operating systems, but from what I've heard they have a hard time implementing "modern" operating system features (modern is a very relative thing) because it breaks existing software. They could have classic software (everything up to 4.1) run in a sandbox. The "new" operating system (4.2, 5.x, ?) wouldn't look very new, but there would be a definite discontinuity.

_________________
X5000 / microA1(OS4.1 FE U2) / CodeBench / Imagine / Blender
Lightwave 2019 / Microsoft Visual C++

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eliyahu 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 13:53:07
#89 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1873
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@cgutjahr

Quote:
But even if all of this was out of their hands - the silent treatment is stupid. Last time AEONkit addressed LO was in 2018 (when I asked during Trevor's AmiWest Q&A), IIRC. The last public appearance was a presentation by AEONkits arch enemy at Amiga 34 in 2019.

On that we certainly agree. I do not understand why keeping our small community in the dark seems to be standard operating procedure around here. It's silly. Especially when progress is being made. Regular updates can be hugely beneficial for all involved, and it prevents unhealthy speculation.

And I wasn't kidding about Personal Paint or being disingenuous. I used it and found it my favorite long before A-EON bought it.

-- eliyahu

_________________
Multicore support is still a priority

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cgutjahr 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 14:06:32
#90 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

And I wasn't kidding about Personal Paint or being disingenuous.

Ah, apologies - I wasn't implying that. More like: to put up with all that crap, you do have to love what they're doing. Otherwise you'd have walked ages away ago, like so many others.

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broadblues 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 14:07:06
#91 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4429
From: Portsmouth England

@cgutjahr

Quote:

It's an 8 bit paint program that already ran on OS4


It didn't actually work properly though. Working on it enabled fixing a few graphics.library bugs and also fixing quite a few ppaint bugs, I'm sure I added a couple of new ones too! (Fixed most of those I hope)

I rarely use it myself, prefering SketchBlock :-0

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

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eliyahu 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 14:42:47
#92 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1873
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@broadblues

I love SketchBlock, too. But it's a very different use-case for me. Doing pixel-editing for things like icons is much easier for me in Personal Paint. Plus once you finally get used to the interface -- which took some doing -- it's very intuitive.

@cgutjahr

No worries! There have been plenty of points where I had to walk away for a bit given the behavior of certain actors in our community. Unfortunately it's just part of the landscape. And even some of the behaviors I don't like come from people I very much do. It's why events like Amiwest or Amiga34 are so important: they remind us that the people around the Amiga are (for the most part) good folks even if/when we disagree with them.

-- eliyahu

_________________
Multicore support is still a priority

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Hypex 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 15:14:21
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10354
From: Greensborough, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
ARP is only a partial re-implementation of parts of AmigaOS but that is what the AmigaKit distribution is currently. What ARP lacked in completeness it made up for in influence as most of the enhancements were adopted into AmigaOS.


Except the difference is you could get it for free. Even Enhancer, which I had with OS1.3, was a free upgrade included by Commodore.

Even so AmigaKit could still be in the process of designing their own ARP. The AmigaKit Replacement Project!

Last edited by Hypex on 08-Jul-2021 at 03:29 PM.

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bison 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 15:15:12
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1959
From: N-Space

@thinkchip

It's far too late to start over and create a modern Amiga-like operating system. Enhancing AmigaOS as a legacy system is viable, but if a modern OS is the goal, Linux already exists.

Last edited by bison on 06-Jul-2021 at 03:16 PM.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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Hypex 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 15:34:36
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10354
From: Greensborough, Australia

@abalaban

Another thing I don't see mentioned in this double indirection debate is the difference between 68K and PPC. Possibly less of an issue on 68K. So taking that function call, the high word then low word of Exec interface is loaded in. This is like a 68K $4 move for function table. A function jump is loaded in. It then moves it to a callable register and calls it. PPC lacks indirect jumps the way everything is register based.

The interface, which acts like a self pointer, is set as first argument. Confuses compiler errors. But it should never be on the stack. No need. First argument. Only other arguments that don't fit in ABI registers. Which I think is less than 68K ABI.

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Trixie 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 19:09:23
#96 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2036
From: Czech Republic

@cgutjahr

Quote:
"Enhancer available as a bootable system image"
"partiton [should be named] 'SystemV54:'"
"select the boot partition where you installed SystemV54"
"the OS4.1 files are complementing the main Enhancer Software System"

This still sounds to me like an AmigaOS4 distribution rather than a new OS.

Quote:
the silent treatment is stupid

Yes, the policy of silence is really annoying

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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TRIPOS 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 20:23:09
#97 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1159
From: Unknown

@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote:
@cgutjahr

Quote:
"Enhancer available as a bootable system image"
"partiton [should be named] 'SystemV54:'"
"select the boot partition where you installed SystemV54"
"the OS4.1 files are complementing the main Enhancer Software System"

This still sounds to me like an AmigaOS4 distribution rather than a new OS.


Potejto potaato, call it what you want; ”distribution”, “Enhancer”, ”System 54”, “AeonKit OS” or whatever final formal name the OS will receive in the future when (if ever) it becomes a real product targeted for the consumer, it is a new OS re-implementation, it’s for god’s sake spelled out as clear as possible without actually using the word OS! The whole point of Lemans triumphant posts is that a milestone has now obviously been reached; now you no longer install “Enhancer” on top of OS4, now it’s the other way around, the “Enhancer” is now the base and then a custom installer program in the enhancer package cherry-picks needed components from an OS4 that has not yet been re-implemented by “AeonKit” in their “System 54” and copies them over in order to fill the missing gaps and thus create a usable system/distribution in the meantime while those components are re-implemented natively in the new OS. Just like how it was done when developing AROS, MorphOS, and OS4 at early stages. When the gaps are finally filled at some point in the future, there will be no more need to copy OS4 components to the "Legacy" folder in "System 54" because then it will all be re-implemented by native "System 54" components and there will be no more need for OS4, "System 54" will be a stand-alone OS. Look at the text in the second image. Leman is telling you exactly this. And he also underscores that "there is a surprising amount of GPL software in OS4 too", as part of the explanation of how this will be achieved “over the next few months”. They will definitely look at AROS IMHO.

Last edited by TRIPOS on 06-Jul-2021 at 09:28 PM.

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abalaban 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 21:06:47
#98 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1109
From: France

@TRIPOS

With your definition as Ubuntu and Debian are targeted for the consumer then they are two different OSes?
Sometimes a distribution may just be that: the bundling of several pieces of software together already installed ready to be used for the consumer...

_________________
AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it !
Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

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matthey 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 21:38:02
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1287
From: Kansas

Hypex Quote:

Except the difference is you could get it for free. Even Enhancer, which I had with OS1.3, was a free upgrade included by Commodore.

Even so AmigaKit could still be in the process of designing their own ARP. The AmigaKit Replacement Project!


lol

Hypex Quote:

Another thing I don't see mentioned in this double indirection debate is the difference between 68K and PPC. Possibly less of an issue on 68K. So taking that function call, the high word then low word of Exec interface is loaded in. This is like a 68K $4 move for function table. A function jump is loaded in. It then moves it to a callable register and calls it. PPC lacks indirect jumps the way everything is register based.


I'm a little rusty but let me give the 68k code a try.

Assuming *ctx is in a0, *SysBase is in a1 and DebugPrintF() is an external function in a library with its two arguments in registers a0 and a1.

trapCode:
move.l a6,-(sp)
move.l a2,-(sp)
move.l a1,a6
lea (ExceptionContext_ip,a0),a2
lea .LC0,a0
move.l a2,a1
jsr (_LVODebugPrintF,a6)
addq.l #4,(a2)
moveq #1,d0
move.l (sp)+,a2
move.l (sp)+,a6
rts

Even on the 68k it is better to avoid accessing location $4 as much as possible. In the trapCode function we have it passed in as an argument which is nice.

Hypex Quote:

The interface, which acts like a self pointer, is set as first argument. Confuses compiler errors. But it should never be on the stack. No need. First argument. Only other arguments that don't fit in ABI registers. Which I think is less than 68K ABI.


The stack register in PPC is r1. The trapCode function has the following instructions using the stack.

stwu %r1,-32(%r1)
stw %r8,36(%r1)
stw %r8,36(%r1)
stw %r3,8(%r1)
lwz %r0,36(%r1)
lwz %r29,20(%r1)
addi %r1,%r1,32

PPC has the overhead of setting up the stack frame for every function accessing the stack so there are no small functions. It is better to do lots of inlining but this reduces code sharing and makes the code more difficult to read especially on lower optimization levels when trying to debug the code. This program was likely compiled at a lower optimization level as trapCode() is not inlined in main(). However, the DebugPrintF() may be inlined into trapCode() judging from the size of trapCode() which defeats the purpose of the example of a "jump to subroutine" in an Amiga shared library and an Amiga shared library call normally can't be inlined. We could look closer at the PPC code to see. Let's start at the beginning.

mflr %r8

PPC mnemonics use acronyms and this is an alias to another acronym which is called a simplified mnemonic in PPC assembler.

The "mflr %r8" simplified mnemonic acronym is "Move From Link Register" which is translated to "mfspr %r8,8" and the full mnemonic acronym is for "Move From Special Purpose Register". This moves the link register to r8. This could have been allowed to be written like the following.

mov r8,lr

Not much thought was put into PPC assembler because compilers were going to be so great that assembler would be obsolete. Sophisticated RISC compilers were the secret weapon to win the battle against CISC but it backfired when x86-64 programmers were able to use assembler to optimize their code (despite it being more difficult to read than 68k assembler) while PPC programmers didn't know what was going on under the hood. In fact, where are the PPC assembler programmers to interpret this code for us?

Last edited by matthey on 07-Jul-2021 at 09:30 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 06-Jul-2021 at 09:48 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: A-EON is internally testing Alpha releases of their own operating system
Posted on 6-Jul-2021 22:59:04
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1159
From: Unknown

@abalaban

Quote:

abalaban wrote:
@TRIPOS

With your definition as Ubuntu and Debian are targeted for the consumer then they are two different OSes?


MY definition?!



OK, so by YOUR definition, MorphOS and AROS are also "distributions", and OS4 as well for that matter? They are not separate OS re-implementations made by different entities of developers, with different goals, priorities, agendas, etc? If so, then fine, if that floats your boat (and have fun trying to get the Wayfarer browser or Iris e-mail client run on the OS4- or AROS "distribution" ). But I don't think many people here view it like that, but rather different OS options albeit based on the same Amiga platform and history, hence within the same community.

Quote:
Sometimes a distribution may just be that: the bundling of several pieces of software together already installed ready to be used for the consumer...


What was described in Leman's posts (the copying of OS4 components to a "Legacy"(!) folder in "System 54") was a procedure only needed in the Alpha-release targeted to developers and testers, in order to create a stand-alone system; the gaps currently needs to be filled with something, and in this case components from OS4 gets cherry-picked. I seriously doubt that any consumer will have to bother with this. The obvious point of recreating and rewriting a new OS is to break free and get independent from OS4 and Hyperion, and a consumer product still relying on OS4 CD's will go against this ambition. As Leaman writes in his post, they have been working "steadfastly" since 2015 towards this. If you ever wondered why on earth AeonKit has been releasing replacement components meant to overwrite the OS4 native ones, then now you should know!

"System 54" should be telling you a lot about AeonKit's view of this.

Version 40 was Kickstart 3.1. Version 44 was OS 3.5, version 45 was OS 3.9. After that things got split up in parallel evolutions. AROS uses a separate versioning scheme, MorphOS uses a separate versioning scheme, OS4 uses a separate versioning scheme. In case of OS4, version 50 was the first version of OS4, version 53 was the last one (this far).

So when "AeonKit" calls their new OS "System 54" they tell us they consider their OS to be an evolution of OS4. But they are NOT Hyperion. Hence they DON'T update OS4. Instead it's just yet another OS re-implementation (the fourth) with yet another parallel versioning scheme.

They could have called their fourth OS re-implementation "System 50", "System 60", "System 100" or "System 1" for that matter, since it's a new OS development on its own with its own parallel versioning scheme. But they choose "System 54" as a marketing punch, in order to create an image of evolution and continuation, despite it's a new development from a new entity of developers, just like MorphOS and AROS (and OS4).

In the meantime, Amiga Corp could come to an agreement with Hyperion (or they could simply win), they could license for example the old or the new MorphOS kernel (or base it from AROS, which probably was some kind of inspiration for "Exec SG" anyway) as an "Exec SG" replacement, they could negotiate deals with old/existing OS4 developers to license their (updated) software, including network stack, file system, and other key things. And then Amiga Corp could release OS4.2 as their "System 54", and that one would be the true evolution of OS4, in other words THE REAL "System 54". Please note, I'm not at all suggesting that any of this will happen (), I'm just trying to illustrate to you how the "AeonKit" OS effort is yet another parallel OS re-implementation, the fourth in a row since AROS first set sails (was it in 1997?).

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