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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 7-Aug-2021 9:08:00
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@matthey

Quote:
Everyone could write for one virtual processor/hardware or intermediate code but these exist and usually aren't popular because they are less efficient than real hardware. If your intent is AmigaNowhere then that is already as available as it will never be.


As you pointed out python is hugely popular cross platform language, does not need to be compiled, but can also be compiled. Other languages like Javascript is also where popular as cross platform language.

The C/C++ language of course is nether big nor little endian, compilers are good, often produce better code the some hard core assembler fanatics can write, if c code is good, if the c code is bad, then the result will of course be bad too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBjjnqG0BP8

Amos Kittens is running Amos programs many times faster on PowerPC then, the Amos programs will be running on slower clocked 680x0 cpu’s, even when they are compiled. Amos was written Assembler and Amos Kittens is written in pure C code.

You spend all the time in word optimizing for a slower CPU, the code will never run faster on slower CPU than an higher clocked CPU.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2021 at 09:15 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2021 at 09:11 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 7-Aug-2021 9:17:54
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1870
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Well, VxWorks is NOT Amiga - I was merely pointing out that Linux is going places. Unlike Amiga.

Maybe I too shall throw around links…
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20200002390

A lot of the use of Linux a NASA stems from back in the days when they used various UNIX - Linux provided compatibility, old scripts written for Ultrix and old SunOS could continue to work. I have been to Linux cons in California and been approached by both JPL and SpaceX representatives looking for admins, “hackers” and programmers to hire, all because of Linux skills. NASA pays a lot of attention when making software to make sure is is not tied to VxWorks, but also can run on other operating systems - primarily Linux. Check out their github.

Last edited by kolla on 07-Aug-2021 at 09:19 AM.

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Rose 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 7-Aug-2021 9:25:45
#23 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 936
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:
Ingenuity is *not* mission critical so they could use an OS which is less reliable, less responsive and more wasteful of performance and energy like Linux. The ARM based SoC can be clocked up to 2.2GHz while the Perseverance main computer only runs at a max clock of 200MHz using a PPC BAE RAD750 (PPC G3) and VxWorks OS. The RAD750 CPUs (there is a 2nd on Perseverance for redundancy) cost in the neighborhood of 10,000 times more than the Snapdragon but reliability has a price tag.


It's not like they are using it because it's about only game in the town when you are looking for radiation hardened CPU's.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 7-Aug-2021 9:48:04
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@saimo

Quote:
namely, achieving what would be unthinkable through the OS


System friendly cooper list is of Couse possible, so most of the tricks will work in a system friendly way.
The extra over head of having a OS in the background should negated by people having faster hardware like Vampires, Buffees and other upgrades, that makes CPU lot faster.
Quote:
Fun, satisfaction


The person playing your game don’t know howto code, can’t appraise your skill, the only thing he cares about is why they can't save the hiscore, way can’t use USB gamepad, or way can’t download some files while playing your game, or way need to goteck and need to reboot his computer to play it. of course someone will hack it work in whdload after a while.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2021 at 10:00 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2021 at 09:58 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2021 at 09:51 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2021 at 09:50 AM.

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saimo 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 8-Aug-2021 12:13:00
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2367
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

You cherry-picked from reply, thus distorting/minimizing the sense of what I said. So, first of all, I'll report the whole quote (it's short, after all):

"Crusade" bothers me. You're entitled to have your own view and express/promote it, but it should not be forced onto others. Your points about system-compliant software are valid, but that's only one side of the story: also hardware-banging software has its advantages - namely, achieving what would be unthinkable through the OS, better/maximum exploitation of the hardware resources, the fun of programming the hardware directly, the satisfaction of getting the machine to do incredible things

Moreover, your answers narrow the discussion to suit your view, but that ain't fair as well.

Let's get into the details...


Quote:
NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@saimo

Quote:
namely, achieving what would be unthinkable through the OS


System friendly cooper list is of Couse possible, so most of the tricks will work in a system friendly way.
The extra over head of having a OS in the background should negated by people having faster hardware like Vampires, Buffees and other upgrades, that makes CPU lot faster.

1. My observations weren't limited to just Copper.
2. I didn't say that it isn't possible to do some Copper stuff in an OS-friendly way.
3. There's plenty of tricks that aren't done by means of Copper (and that "most tricks" are done by the Copper is arguable).
4. You're now artificially restricting the plaforms to the (more) powerful ones, but your crusade is general (from your post #8: the only crusade is topic of writing code that bangs the hardware, my believe is that should always have a software API) and thus it involves also the less/least powerful machines - your point about OS overhead being overcome by means of hardware power does not apply to them.
5. There are things that the OS just cannot do - and not necessarily only because of hardware limitations, but also because it doesn't even contemplate them and/or doesn't offer a way to do them.

I'll reword what I said in a more precise way: the weaker the machine, the more direct hardware programming allows to get the most out of it and achieve what would be impossible through the OS


Quote:
Quote:
Fun, satisfaction


The person playing your game don’t know howto code, can’t appraise your skill, the only thing he cares about is why they can't save the hiscore, way can’t use USB gamepad, or way can’t download some files while playing your game, or way need to goteck and need to reboot his computer to play it. of course someone will hack it work in whdload after a while.

1. The whole context of "fun" and "statisfaction" is: the fun of programming the hardware directly, the satisfaction of getting the machine to do incredible things - this has nothing to do with users understanding the technical aspects, nor with their (supposed) struggles, but it's relative entirely to the developer - i.e. I'm talking about the fun and satisfaction experienced by the developer during the creation process; how could you or anybody else ever tell me what's more enjoyable and satisfying for me (and whoever else enjoys direct hardware programming)?
2. You re-state the points in favour of OS-compliant programming: not only they aren't related to the developer's fun and satistaction, but I had already acknowledged them (Your points about system-compliant software are valid), so there was no need to repeat them.


Look, again, no problem with you preferring and promoting OS-compliant programming, but, please, don't deny the advantages of direct hardware programming nor try to enforce your view on others. That's all there is to it.

Last edited by saimo on 08-Aug-2021 at 12:41 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 8-Aug-2021 14:24:17
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5942
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

I do not really understand the discussion

If someone wants to earn the money for living he or she would not develop anything for any amiga-platform because it simply makes no sense. Developing on PC with modern environments is a lot more easier, you have much bigger resources available than on any amiga platform (including OS4 and PPC) and you can easily port it to different supported platforms (similar as with Hollywood).

So people develop something for amiga because it is fun for them. In best case they get some money for it but never enough to compensate the invested time.

Obviously it is more fun for many developers to directly hit the amiga hardware and examine what is possible, even if that needs more efforts than using more sophisticated platforms. But if they would think that way they would certainly also drop PPC and use something really modern.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 8-Aug-2021 18:17:40
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11921
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
I do not really understand the discussion


Clearly people coming from different places here.
Quote:
If someone wants to earn the money for living he or she would not develop anything for any amiga-platform because it simply makes no sense. Developing on PC with modern environments is a lot easier, you have much bigger resources available than on any amiga platform (including OS4 and PPC) and you can easily port it to different supported platforms (similar as with Hollywood).


There no wall between AmigaOS3 and AmigaOS4, if write software in way is system friendly it will work on AmigaOS4, (for the most part).

Clearly copper list, blitter, paula and cia is not supported, but everything else is, there few things you need to keep in mind most 68K software works on planar graphics, and AmigaOS4 software defaults to chunky graphics.

Hypex and Me have are thinking / working on way to run less system friendly things, but there clear limits to what can be done about it.

Sure you develop for SDL and Allegro, and you get larger market, you write code in Python and get larger market, there many way you can get larger market, if not interested in AmigaOS / AROS / MorphOS at all, you use different OS, and use one of the game engines.

Quote:
So people develop something for amiga because it is fun for them. In best case they get some money for it but never enough to compensate the invested time.

This mens also more likely to do something that unnecessary compared to something necessary.
Quote:
Obviously it is more fun for many developers to directly hit the amiga hardware and examine what is possible, even if that needs more efforts than using more sophisticated platforms.


When you make something and publish it, music, art, programs, or whatever, if you are trying to sell it, you drum up publicity, and you get offended when you don’t not get the response you hoped for, because of choices you made.

too few views, to few likes, or too many dislikes, how do you react?

Saimo has product he like to sell. His prospect (me) telling him the deal breaker it has to be “system-compliant software”. He tells me I should not force that, and should buy software anyway.
So I tell why it’s a deal breaker, what I expect from his software. Now Saimo is now only interested in selling to the owner of the slowest systems. To sell to people with slowest systems, he must optimize it.

So we are talking about here is about squeezing out every single clock cycle to sell It to the slowest systems, despite people own upgrades, in my option this is for personal vanity.

Quote:
But if they would think that way, they would certainly also drop PPC and use something really modern.


so for years talking CPU’s because we can’t use ARM or x86, well if you don’t have content, how you going to sell it, you need portable code, interesting programs and tools and games, until people change how they do things, moving to more modern CPU’s make little or no point. the community is divided by people do not want move forward and people who does not.


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saimo 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 8-Aug-2021 19:17:58
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2367
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Saimo has product he like to sell. His prospect (me) telling him the deal breaker it has to be “system-compliant software”. He tells me I should not force that, and should buy software anyway.

Man, I don't appreciate this additional and unfair twist.
I never, ever, in this thread talked about or hinted at selling (my) software - actually, I didn't even remotely think about it!
And certainly I never told you - neither here or anywhere else - that you "should buy software anyway".
Finally, I didn't even think about - let alone mention - my software: I joined the discussion purely for "philosphical" reasons.

Also, the way you put it, makes it look like I'm particularly focused only selling software - well, on my itch.io page, I have:
* for classic Amigas: 4 games, 1 demo and 1 library for developers, and only 1 game is paid-for (and the price hasn't even been set by me, but by the publisher of the physical edition);
* for AmigaOS 4 and Windows: 4 games, and only 2 of them are paid-for;
* for Commodore 64: 3 games, and only 1 of them is paid-for (and v1.0 of the same game is free).
On top of everything, I continuously update/expand my software and release free updates.

In short: please don't try anymore to make me look like I'm in this discussion for commercial reasons.

Quote:
So I tell why it’s a deal breaker, what I expect from his software.

If you don't like my software, don't download/buy it. I'm perfectly fine with that.

Quote:
Now Saimo is now only interested in selling to the owner of the slowest systems.

How do you know that? And, by the way, that's factually wrong: I'm more than happy if also people with more powerful hardware enjoy my software.

Quote:
To sell to people with slowest systems, he must optimize it.

And I deeply enjoy doing that.

Quote:
So we are talking about here is about squeezing out every single clock cycle to sell It to the slowest systems, despite people own upgrades, in my option this is for personal vanity.

Your opinion is wrong again. Not only you can't possibly read my mind, but I even expressly declared, in this very thread, that I get fun and satisfaction from programming directly the hardware (and achieving what I couldn't achieve by means of the OS).

Please stop twisting my words and throwing deceiving arguments into the discussion. I clearly summarized all I wanted to say already in my previous post (which you didn't answer to) - here, for your convenience:

Look, again, no problem with you preferring and promoting OS-compliant programming, but, please, don't deny the advantages of direct hardware programming nor try to enforce your view on others. That's all there is to it.

Edits: minor fixes.

Last edited by saimo on 09-Aug-2021 at 11:26 AM.
Last edited by saimo on 09-Aug-2021 at 11:25 AM.
Last edited by saimo on 08-Aug-2021 at 09:12 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 08-Aug-2021 at 08:38 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 08-Aug-2021 at 08:32 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 08-Aug-2021 at 08:32 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 08-Aug-2021 at 08:29 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 8:15:25
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 366
From: Unknown

@saimo

There is always more problems with hardware banging than gains.
Hardware banging is acceptable only when there is only one model of computer.
Every change in hardware made problems.
There was too much problems with this crap with A500 to A1200 transition.
With better Amigas there was even more problems.

On Amiga hardware banging is acceptable only in software made in good old style of Amiga 500.
0.5MB RAM 0.5 MB SLOW copper, blitter, floopy only.
Something like 30 years ago.

Everything else should be made for os.

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IridiumFX 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 9:39:27
#30 ]
Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2017
Posts: 67
From: London, UK

@ppcamiga1

But you may have to remember this is not a commercial venue. The Amiga if fundamentally individuals having fun with what they have.

There's no commercial venue, no support, no sales model, heck there's not even a company producing new models on a regular basis (note, sporadic 1 in a decade don't count).

You cannot dictate how a private wants to have fun in his own free time, on his own ideas.
The fact Saimo or Arne spend their time and share something (or sell, as an artesan manifactured item ...) is a plus

@Arne, Gunnar & Saimo, you guys rock. Keep up the incredible efforts, each of you on what makes you feel happy

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Birbo 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 12:04:43
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 590
From: Zurich, Switzerland

I’m with IridiumFX and Saimo.

ASM for 68k is fun and if you want to code it, just do it.

Why should there someone stopping you?

I personally like the video from Arne and Gunnar.

I never liked ppcamiga1.

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OldAmigan 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 12:07:05
#32 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2003
Posts: 659
From: Dumfries, Scotland

@thread

This started off as a bit of information for would be coders, or those who may be interested.

What a shame that this (and quite a few other threads on most Amiga sites) has to get highjacked by people who only seem to want an argument - similar to a pissing contest or a 'my d*cks bigger than yours' contest

Edit: spelling correction

Last edited by OldAmigan on 09-Aug-2021 at 12:07 PM.

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saimo 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 12:13:23
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2367
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
There is always more problems with hardware banging than gains.

This is questionable. Where's the study that proves such a claim?

This very forum probably wouldn't exist and probably many (or even all) of us wouldn't be still using Amiga(-like) systems without hardware banging because one of the reasons that made the Amiga great and users have so many fond memories of it is games and demos, and most of them have been written without using the OS (and couldn't have been written using the OS).

To look at it from another point of view, there are games and demos (and maybe even applications?) that wouldn't even exist without hardware banging; now, what's best:
* having those productions working fine only on some of all the Amiga systems around and not working (fine) on the other systems, or
* not having those productions at all?

As I have repeated already several times, direct hardware programming allows to create what the OS doesn't allow. That's a huge and undeniable gain which isn't cancelled by the (potential) compatibility problems.

Quote:
Hardware banging is acceptable only when there is only one model of computer.

Which is the authority that is entitled to define such a rule?
What would be the logic of such a rule, anyway? There are games that run on multiple Amiga models just fine.

Quote:
Every change in hardware made problems.
There was too much problems with this crap with A500 to A1200 transition.
With better Amigas there was even more problems.

It's undeniable that there have been and there are problems, but:
* lots (most?) of those problems are caused by bad programming (and bad programming can cause issues also to OS-legal software), not hardware banging per se;
* as long as the machine(s) a software is made for is clearly stated and the software is properly written for said machine(s), who tries to use such software on a different machine should be aware that the software might not work properly; likewise, a developer that goes for direct hardware programming is aware that his audience is restricted to those who own the target machine(s) and that issues might arise on modified machines.

Quote:
On Amiga hardware banging is acceptable only in software made in good old style of Amiga 500.
0.5MB RAM 0.5 MB SLOW copper, blitter, floopy only.
Something like 30 years ago.

Everything else should be made for os.

Which is the authority that is entitled to define such a rule?
Why would the A500 be acceptable, but not the other classic machines or any subset of them?

I decided to make some software for AGA Amigas only: why shouldn't I be allowed? Who on Earth is entitled to forbid me to do that?

Side notes (to avoid misunderstandings and/or malicious/distracting arguments):
* the fact that direct hardware programming is legit doesn't justify sloppy coding;
* I'm absolutely not against OS-legal programming.


@IridiumFX

Much appreciated, thank you!


Edit:

@Birbo

Thank you!

Last edited by saimo on 09-Aug-2021 at 04:14 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 09-Aug-2021 at 12:21 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 14:24:58
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10308
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

LOL. Thanks for watching the video for me. My internet is slow again so it would have taken me even longer to draw out a summary.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 20:45:56
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 366
From: Unknown

@IridiumFX

Of course not.
First we do not have to accept every crap because it is not commercial.
Second v4 is not for free. AGA hardware is not for free.
Prices for both are far away from what they are worth.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 21:07:53
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 366
From: Unknown

@saimo

There were valid reasons why operating systems were invented.
For example software runs on new hardware without changes.

Do what You want. But.
To be honest, Your software is not worth enough to justify buy AGA hardware.
It not Your fault prices of AGA hardware are insane.





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saimo 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 9-Aug-2021 22:16:18
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2367
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

I see that you didn't refute any of the points I made - I take it you couldn't.
Instead, you brought up two arguments: one that had been addressed already, and a new one. Well, let's see...

Quote:
There were valid reasons why operating systems were invented.
For example software runs on new hardware without changes.

So you're indirectly suggesting I don't know the purpose and advantages of OSes: OK, you don't know me, but do you really think that a software developer doesn't know that? Moreover, if I hadn't known, I wouldn't have repeatedly acknowledged the advantages of OS-legal programming (I had acknowledged what you said right in my first post in this thread) and gone as far as writing "to avoid misunderstandings and/or malicious/distracting arguments ... I'm absolutely not against OS-legal programming". But I see it was all useless.
That aside, the most important thing here is that your argument is meant to oppose direct hardware programming, but the logic is totally flawed: the advantages of OS-legal programming do not void in any way the advantages of direct hardware programming, and vice versa - I have already talked about that more than I would have ever imagined to be necessary, so I won't add anything else here.

Quote:
To be honest, Your software is not worth enough to justify buy AGA hardware.

And here's yet another specious argument that has nothing to do with neither counters what I said - but I won't let it go unanswered anyway:
* I didn't say, neither directly nor indirectly, that my software is worth enough to justify the purchase of AGA hardware;
* I didn't ask anybody to buy any kind of hardware to use my software;
* I don't write software to promote any kind of hardware;
* more in general, I never said that software written by means of direct hardware programming is a way to promote the purchase of the target hardware.

I write software as I please for the systems I please. Who is interested in my software and has the system(s) to run it is welcome to download/buy it. Who isn't interested in my software and/or doesn't have the system(s) to run it and/or doesn't like the way I create the software and/or doesn't like me and/or has any other reason against using my software is totally free to ignore it.
Nobody has the right to come and tell me how I should write my software and the system(s) I should target.
But that goes for every free developer, not just me. Therefore, the crusade against direct hardware programming is totally unacceptable (hence, my initial reply).
Anybody who doesn't like hardware-banging software just stay away from it. But don't try to impose your preferences on others.
As simple as that.

Last edited by saimo on 09-Aug-2021 at 10:17 PM.

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noXLar 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 10-Aug-2021 15:49:00
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-May-2003
Posts: 715
From: Norway

@saimo

dam must be frustrating the feed of logic with baby spoon. some just don't know how to use it. anyway. everything makes sence what you said and fully support you.

nox

Last edited by noXLar on 10-Aug-2021 at 03:50 PM.

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emeck 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 10-Aug-2021 18:26:40
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Apr-2003
Posts: 683
From: Barcelona, Spain

@saimo

Not need to explain more. Thanks for the software you have released for our systems!

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PowerBook 5.2 MorphOS 3.15
PowerBook 5.8 MorphOS 3.15
Amiga 1200 BPPC/BVision AOS4.1 FE

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matthey 
Re: Arne and Gunnars ASM course Twitch video
Posted on 11-Aug-2021 0:30:58
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1231
From: Kansas

I wish we had 68k hardware which was powerful enough (68060+ performance) and cheap enough (less than $100 for a board) to upgrade the Amiga base so banging the hardware is unnecessary. I don't fault CBM for releasing the Amiga hardware specs or programmers for banging the hardware to achieve more than would be possible otherwise. Like CBM, I encourage programmers to use the AmigaOS when possible. Properly multitasking games are cool, easier to debug and can better take advantage of 3rd party devices like USB and networking devices.

Last edited by matthey on 11-Aug-2021 at 12:35 AM.

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