amigang Quote:

Yes but your missing one big part of this, many are not even aware an Amiga desktop can look like this and do the stuff it can do in the Os, a fairly big part of retro scene only even remember the Amiga as a games machine. The Os if they remember it, many will think of it as a boring, plan grey and blue desktop, I shown a few friends what a modern Amiga looks like and they kinda blown away by the customisation you can do. Plus the in Amiga terms it’s fast vs Pi terms it’s slow, we’ll actually i played with a few linux pi images and I tell you some of them are very slow, where simple things like open a folder and the window will slowly renders in, I question why they are on pi hardware when the gui struggles to runs.

I'm skeptical the Amiga running at no more than 1/3 of low end hardware performance is the way to showcase a more modern Amiga. While the Amiga is responsive, heavier processes would likely reveal the 1/3 performance and could make the Amiga look bad.

OlafS25 Quote:

I know we disagree about where the platform should go. Finally you need developers who do it. Either they do it for fun or for money (or both). The fastest way would be to pay developers for it but that would cost a lot of money. For that you need investors giving you the money. I would like to know how you would like to persuade investors to give you the money and where it differentiates from competing much bigger platforms. Why do you think people would be interested in such a system and spend money for it? That are questions people would ask you. I am skeptical there. Amiga today is retro, as I said 68k and topics like gaming fit in that context and 68k Aros running on RPi would be very nice and hopefully create more interest. There is a lot of development in the 68k market today. I see a healthy growing retro market as a big chance. Everything else is pure dreaming.

Many retro hardware recreations have sold well. The Raspberry Pi has sold well. Low end hardware can be produced cheap enough to be toys appealing to compulsive buyers. AmigaOne development and production has likely required millions of dollars in investment. How much money has been wasted on Amiga lawsuits? Even opening a nice restaurant can cost millions of dollars today. In my opinion, it would be better to raise enough money to make a professional competitive mass produced product than piddle around with emulators, virtual processors and bastard AmigaOS hybrids looking for a host to raise Amiga awareness. Amiga Forever has been around for almost 25 years and hasn't revived the Amiga. Emu68 is just a little more efficient emulator for low end hardware but is going to change the Amiga world?

@matthey

change the world is too much

I think there is a niche for it and a niche can be big too. It will certainly not change the world. I like about amiga (next to retro of course ;) ), simplicity and concepts like datatypes or installuing drivers by copying files in a directory. Some of that certainly could also be implemented on a different new platform but the more "modern" something has to be the more bloated it will become. If the end result is different enough to attract new users (and that would be certainly the goal) is difficult for me to say. I have enough "modern stuff" already personally and do not need another "modern platform" to be happy. Amiga (or in my case Aros) is a playground. Just my personal view.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 19-Nov-2021 at 10:44 AM.

What made me buy an A500, was that it could do a lot for an entry level price tag.
Lot of games
Lots of utilities
Many graphical/musical software
And a lot of fun discovering how to code in C/asm.

Now you can get an entry level computer for some hundreds of euros, with a lightweight linux distro, you can do a lot.

Actually I don't see how an Amiga system could make a come back, with a technology completely outdated.

- Would not use it on x86 arm as a daily basis, because it lacks a lot for a "modern" use (aka everything is in a browser now)
- Would not use it on a RPi, because there is already a lot of linux distros available with those I can do whatever I want/need
- We have a lot of possibilities for retro computing right now

OlafS25 Quote:

change the world is too much

Did the Raspberry Pi change the computing world? Many people thought it was a toy at such low prices yet it rocked the hobby, educational and embedded markets and has even penetrated into the unpenetrable desktop market albeit at the low end. Surprisingly, the toy has been successful with practical functionality at a low price and not entertainment from gaming and retro markets which are still untapped at such a low price level. The Raspberry Pi may even be vulnerable to competition at the lowest level which taps into the gaming and retro markets.

OlafS25 Quote:

I think there is a niche for it and a niche can be big too. It will certainly not change the world. I like about amiga (next to retro of course ;) ), simplicity and concepts like datatypes or installing drivers by copying files in a directory. Some of that certainly could also be implemented on a different new platform but the more "modern" something has to be the more bloated it will become. If the end result is different enough to attract new users (and that would be certainly the goal) is difficult for me to say. I have enough "modern stuff" already personally and do not need another "modern platform" to be happy. Amiga (or in my case Aros) is a playground. Just my personal view.

Maybe Amiga "Workbench" should be renamed Amiga "Playground". I like the concept of the Amiga as a simple and cheap toy. I just don't see an Amiga parasite feeding off of, and dependent on a host toy, as being particularly attractive. I'm not criticizing but rather scrutinizing.

Last edited by matthey on 19-Nov-2021 at 10:19 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 19-Nov-2021 at 06:05 PM.

Quote:

I'm skeptical the Amiga running at no more than 1/3 of low end hardware performance is the way to showcase a more modern Amiga. While the Amiga is responsive, heavier processes would likely reveal the 1/3 performance and could make the Amiga look bad.

I think your still thinking and targeting Amiga at the wrong market, the heavier processes software like maybe video encoding, 3d editing, 3d gaming etc I dont think we can really win in that market without huge investments. Like i said, in a real fantasy world/dream I would love Amiga to be the option over Windows, Mac or Linux.

But we are where we are, what I feel it could offer in my dream is a best in class modern retro system, the best system to make mods on, make 2d gaming/pixel art on, a great computer to learn basic programming on, run retro games etc, target our strengths, the rest can maybe come later if we ever get bigger. All these are easily possible on Pi hardware today, even with 1/3 of the power and the different in speed on these tasks are not something people really look at, you dont really see benchmarks on this kinda stuff, what people look at in these areas are features, easy of use, etc, even though Amiga programs are from the 90s, we hold are own on most of these tasks.

Last edited by amigang on 20-Nov-2021 at 11:02 AM.

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@amigang

Agreed!

Make it so A-EON (with retail/software support from Amigakit) and Cloanto! While we are talking about a way forward; Hyperion, please sell out to A-EON and concentrate on technology/IP litigation far away from the Amiga market. Great, let's get on with it!

Last edited by BigD on 20-Nov-2021 at 12:32 PM.

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@amigang

It is arm. It is like x86 commodity hardware.
You want commodity hardware, You have to provide something as good as win/lnx/osx.
On commodity hardware You compete with Microsoft/Google/Apple.
No matter if You like it or no.
The whole idea of emulator on arm is pure bs.
Nobody sane will waste their time on this when everything can be made many times faster on commodity os.

@amigang

IT IS like the britains still dreaming to become a empire again...

I exactly share your view. The whole idea of becoming a serious competitor to windows/mac/linux is completely dreaming and will never happen. It would need lots of changes and big investment. Also you must exactly say how and where you differentiate from competition. In my view there are already enough "professional OSs" on the market, nobody waits for another one. The situation is how it is. More realitstic is to look what we have and what can be done to grow the market.

@ppcamiga1

Oh ok we understood... you do not like 68k so drop it

You do not like commodity hardware because people couldf compare it then... drop it

What is left then?

Only a desktop sittiing on linux? As far as I know there are already amiga themes on linux. I do not think that this will motivate users or developers to do something.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 20-Nov-2021 at 03:23 PM.

@ppcamiga1
Quote:

On commodity hardware You compete with Microsoft/Google/Apple. No matter if You like it or no.

No you don't, the very fact that the Pi has created a successful hobbyist market proves this statement to be completely false!

I'm not saying being the best retro computer platform is going get us to capture even 1% of the current computer market, but if we could get even 0.5% of the market that would be a huge win for Amiga.

I said in another thread "What does success look like?" about a million users world wide would be huge win for the Amiga and be big enough to support commercial efforts, as mostly what we have is passion project which is great but to be really back we need commercial efforts be successful. A market of this size is not something the tech firms will even care about, but it be great for a community like ours!

I think having a smaller dream like this is much better way of viewing the Amiga now. Just my personal view.

Quote:

The whole idea of emulator on arm is pure bs. Nobody sane will waste their time on this when everything can be made many times faster on commodity os

Then why are you on Amiga forum? there must a be a reason you still use Amiga, it could be just nostalgia, but that's a powerful market. The biggest Amiga commercial venture in a while, the A500 mini, oh look at that its a Arm based computer running emulation. I guess a lot of people are going to waste there time on it, plus on all them other mini computers that had success, mini nes, mini ps1, min c64, all time wasted.

Of course I would like a native port to Arm, but emulation the best we can hope for at the moment. i would like to see efforts that push the Amiga forward, Rabbit Hole feature kind show of something not seen on other emulating platforms, is ideal, no, but nothing is in the current Amiga market :)

Last edited by amigang on 20-Nov-2021 at 04:44 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 20-Nov-2021 at 04:43 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 20-Nov-2021 at 04:38 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 20-Nov-2021 at 04:32 PM.

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Whatever the other particular details, I'd like a laptop. It's too difficult to spend much time in a computer cave where my desktop stuff is set up. At this point, I want my computer to come to/with me, not the other way around.

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amigang Quote:

I think your still thinking and targeting Amiga at the wrong market, the heavier processes software like maybe video encoding, 3d editing, 3d gaming etc I dont think we can really win in that market without huge investments. Like i said, in a real fantasy world/dream I would love Amiga to be the option over Windows, Mac or Linux.

I was thinking first of a web browser as heavier processing. Even lighter web browsers need some processing power and the lighter you go the fewer browsing features that people come to expect today are available. Lack of SMP and SIMD processing further reduces performance which even some lightweight browsers take advantage of to help close the performance gap with heavier browsers.

amigang Quote:

But we are where we are, what I feel it could offer in my dream is a best in class modern retro system, the best system to make mods on, make 2d gaming/pixel art on, a great computer to learn basic programming on, run retro games etc, target our strengths, the rest can maybe come later if we ever get bigger. All these are easily possible on Pi hardware today, even with 1/3 of the power and the different in speed on these tasks are not something people really look at, you dont really see benchmarks on this kinda stuff, what people look at in these areas are features, easy of use, etc, even though Amiga programs are from the 90s, we hold are own on most of these tasks.

I like your vision of retro meets modern computing. I believe your hope that people will migrate to the Amiga from running an emulator is flawed though. When has any mass platform migration occurred from people switching to the emulated environment they tried, especially one that runs at 1/3 performance at most?

OlafS25 Quote:

I exactly share your view. The whole idea of becoming a serious competitor to windows/mac/linux is completely dreaming and will never happen. It would need lots of changes and big investment. Also you must exactly say how and where you differentiate from competition. In my view there are already enough "professional OSs" on the market, nobody waits for another one. The situation is how it is. More realistic is to look what we have and what can be done to grow the market.

The Amiga should compete with the Raspberry Pi and Arduino. Some customers may find that a cheap overachieving toy is adequate for their PC needs though. This is how the Raspberry Pi is stealthily gaining some low end desktop market share.

@matthey


Quote:

When has any mass platform migration occurred from people switching to the emulated environment they tried,

Like I pointed out the mini retro console market has seen some success and created new fans of retro consoles, mini c64 was successful enough to get the full size one made, new fans, renewed interest and new games have come out as a result.

How it’s box’s, runs and presented is a big part because one big factor you forget for maybe 90% of the people who buy these type of computers they don’t care it’s emulated, as long as they can play the classic games it’s good enough. With out watching a teardown video you have no idea what the specs are, people don’t really care in this market. Mean do you know the specs difference of mini nes and mini ps1 no, just care if it ran the games. By they way they are all powered by Arm in emulation.

Quote:

especially one that runs at 1/3 performance at most?

Again like I pointed out the tasks I think Amiga should promote are not the things that get really benchmarked, I 100% could make a pixel art work in Dpaint on my pi400 as fast as I could make it in Gpaint or what ever linux program you gave me, actually I’d be quicker with Dpaint most likely as I know the program more. That’s kinda my point.

Last edited by amigang on 20-Nov-2021 at 09:01 PM.

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My choice is not up there. New platform relies on emulation, No. My personnel choice would be a much improved 68K CPU like Matthey is talking about, probably no less than 1 Ghz.

With that power you can open a " Rabbit Hole " and open up a modern app from another device until software shows up. Till that happens you still do stuff with another computer. Be it a Pi or a Tinker Board, you can still do something and not chew up electricity, costing more every day in California.

Chris

If they ever figure how to open a new task in another core. You can add one that ASIC.

@matthey

You propably heared of Michal doing emu68 currently for PiStorm and he is also Aros developer. If I think it to the end there will be Aros 68k running natively on RPi. It should outperform easily any other OS on RPi even with only using one core. That would be a nice little toy. Of course it is without chipset but it would offer new opportunities. And there are plenty of other options available already or in development. I am quiet optimistic now.

And regarding desktop... if you take what is available (in my case I use Aros 68k+Magellan+parts from Hollywood+amiga software and components) you can already do a lot and have a really comfortable environment.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 21-Nov-2021 at 10:59 AM.

@QuikSanz

Michals emu68 is in my view the best solution making it possible to run 68k almost native on different hardware

@OlafS25

Quote:

Only a desktop sittiing on linux? As far as I know there are already amiga themes on linux.

As has been said many times, those of us who would like to see Amiga running on Linux, or Unix, want more than just a desktop theme.

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@amigang

emu68k is emulator not a real thing.
Our community has better emulator.
uae has JIT since 2000.
Twenty one years and nothing.
Nobody sane will develop for emulator.

@bison

Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix,
Something like Mac Os X is the only way forward.

@ppcamiga1

You seem mot to understand what emulator means