@ Wegster

Quote:

PS3s as 'something special

Imagine a student buying a 500 dollar (or potentially cheaper in the future) PS3, being able to install and use Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice.org, etc for free for school work. The student can even connect a cheap TV as a display instead of a monitor.

Linux options for the PS3 will only get better over time, the hardware components will remain largely the same and probably software will become increasingly optimsed (You should not experience driver headaches like with ever changing, half supported PCs). IMO the potential use of the system as for instance a cheap desktop replacement looks hard to deny. Industry wide support for the system will probably remain for at least the coming decade.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-Nov-2006 at 08:29 PM.

@ Wegster

Quote:

PS3s as 'something special

Compared to the usual desktop PC, its extremely silent and pretty small, it's also better suited as a DVD / Blue Ray movie player.

Of course the media and most people will judge the PS3 based on its future high definition games, but don't think it's only usable as a games box. I still remember the days when Amigans hated it when people said it was "just" a games machine due to its roots (personally I thought: just let them talk, I know better, using Scala, Dpaint, Word Worth, etc). Sure you can use a high quality spreadsheet, word processor or webbrowser on this nice little PS3 computer and if you're interested in this then IMO don't listen to anyone who tells you differently!

Last edited by MikeB on 20-Nov-2006 at 09:03 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 20-Nov-2006 at 09:01 PM.

@ whingers

Registered Amiga puritans can just make little red and white chequer patterns on some paper, cut them out and glue them over their oh-so-easily offended eyes. Just wait guys, in a few more years you'll be complaining bitterly about all those rude things on tv without ever thinking to just turn it off.

Last edited by peroxidechicken on 21-Nov-2006 at 02:32 AM.

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Mike- except it's not 'cheap' as a desktop replacement. Dell beats PS3 by a wide margin there.

Your example gave the 'poor student' as an example, who being 'poor' by definition, doesn't 'need' Blu-Ray, or a PS3 he can't buy games for.

Plus, the 256MB RAM limit is pretty tough. Open Firefox with a dozen tabs, then leave it alone. Come back a day or two later and check RAM usage. I'm unsure I've ever run OO.org on a 256MB system..might be done, but I wouldn't want firefox and my normal apps open on a 256MB system.

It's an interesting piece of hardware, but it has limits in usefulness for 'normal desktop usage.'

Most 'driver headaches' are pretty rapidly dealt with under Linux nowadays, so that's mostly a moot point, at least a month or two after a system comes out..

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

Quote:

Plus, the 256MB RAM limit is pretty tough. Open Firefox with a dozen tabs, then leave it alone. Come back a day or two later and check RAM usage. I'm unsure I've ever run OO.org on a 256MB system..might be done, but I wouldn't want firefox and my normal apps open on a 256MB system.

That's when a OS like Amiga OS is a perfect match, when used with akin apps it could be a good match... I don't know how's sputniks mem usage, but it could present a good solution...

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

What would be the best way to run Amiga OS on the PS3?

A) Linux -> Mac on Linux -> Mac OS X -> Virtual PC -> Window$ -> WinUAE -> Amiga OS3.9

B) Amiga OS4 (as Other OS)

Cheers
Amiguero

Quote:

Quote: Quote: Plus, the 256MB RAM limit is pretty tough. Open Firefox with a dozen tabs, then leave it alone. Come back a day or two later and check RAM usage. I'm unsure I've ever run OO.org on a 256MB system..might be done, but I wouldn't want firefox and my normal apps open on a 256MB system. That's when a OS like Amiga OS is a perfect match, when used with akin apps it could be a good match... I don't know how's sputniks mem usage, but it could present a good solution...

I agree, with respect to OS4...or a stripped Linux distro, but only to a point. It's not a compelling purchase as a 'general user desktop' the way Mike wants people to believe. It's more compelling as a stripped system, with DSL + perhaps a lighter weight browser than firefox, but not at the price.

As a piece of OS4 hardware/hobbyist system, sure...and it would be the end of 'we STILL need hardware' at least for a while, or when you need more RAM for specific tasks. it would certainly make a better OS4 platform that anything we've had to date.. for a number of reasons.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

Quote:

I'm unsure I've ever run OO.org on a 256MB system..might be done, but I wouldn't want firefox and my normal apps open on a 256MB system.

I did run Linux with 128 mb RAM for a few months when I got my A1.
The speed was decent (=usable).
This was with 256 mb of swap.
Both Mozilla and O.O did work.

_________________
Site admins are people too..pooff!

@ wegster

I think it's best to see the PS3 with linux in action. Sure I agree, AmigaOS4 would probably be able to excellently multitask at good speed between many applications compared to Linux and it's more popular software base. But there is virtual memory support.

And there are students which aren't that poor, I know because our family business rents rooms to hundreds of students, many mostly just lack the space, during the weekend many return back to stay with their parents living in other cities and villages.

The PS3 may be excellent for Linux, developers would probably do their best to optimise software and make their software become more memory efficient.

The base price of the PS3 will go down eventually. I think some months down the road you will better understand what I am talking about.

@Tomazkid/but mostly MikeB
I don't know why you keep persisting..

Mike- I'm aware of what to expect from console and other hardware price drops, and quite familiar with 'what to expect of Linux.' I've been using and developing for Linux for over 10 years now, started with Linux in '93 with a 0.6X or so kernel. I'm pretty confident in saying, 'Ok, I have enough experience with Linux.'

Not every student is 'poor,' but that was YOUR example- to somehow sell a Linux PS3 as a 'desktop replacement.' No go there, it just isn't a suitable desktop replacement for real use. And recall the pricing on the PS1 and PS2- they don't announce drastic price cuts for quite some time...during which time, Dell with their low cost PCs, will continue to beat the PS3 for a 'desktop system' for bang/buck. And by 'some months,' Sony _may_ or may not react to XBox360 and Wii pricing and drop $50-$100. So what? Wait a few _years_ for the price drop you seem to be expecting, enough to make it a real difference.

Why you seem to continue to really want to push Linux on PS3 as something of real interest, let alone a desktop replacement system, is beyond me. Yes, it's possible to run ancient distros on low amounts of RAM. It's also possible to run modern kernels and stripped or specialty distros in low amounts of RAM. I ran Linux and X with fvwm for ages on a 4MB 386 system, but that doesn't mean you can, or _should_ do the same today. It's not the core that's the problem- you can get Damned Small Linux running quite nicely in 128MB or less...it's the apps, and what people want to DO with the apps.

I like the PS3. I love Linux. However, it's a curiosity or hobby more than anything else that Linux on PS3 is likely to 'become.' Some specialty purposes may also fit in there, depending on how well the Cell architecture works for a given problem, but in the end, for a _desktop system_ (the one you continue to push, seeming to think somehow 'everyone will be wrong, and eventually see the light'), users are going to want to run apps, and manipulate data.

That data may likely be video and audio, whether from the web or their own devices (camcorder, mp3, etc), will certainly include web browsing, which will very likely also include Java apps and applets, flash, etc. How much RAM do you think you have now, or how much is swapped in a day of casual use? Add a half dozen tabs to Firefox. Open the GIMP, and use it. Open OpenOffice.org. How much is 'left' now? (Hint- you're already swapping). Now, tell me again why someone would choose the PS3 as a desktop system, when they could cure the lagginess from swapping for $50-$100 on any inexpensive Dell or other system?

It IS too bad Sony didn't leave a way to expand the RAM. If they had, it could render much of the above a non-argument. But, as it is...you'd best find a different tact if you plan on trying to sell these, because a desktop system for normal users, it will never be. The best you could hope for is a slimmer browser and suite of apps, like DSL uses, to run on it, and at which point you have an 'OK for casual use (or kiosk, etc), but limited' system. Find something the Cell can excel at, and sell it into a specialty market, and you'd have better luck.

Again, it might be a nice Tivo replacement or media manager as well...but that is not a desktop system, either.

Regarding developers optimizing their software to make it more memory efficient..the question becomes, 'Why would they?' I write commercial software, and sadly as time goes on in the tech industry, there is less and less time to 'revise' code for maintenance. Profiling code isn't 'the norm,' or spending significant time on optimizing nearly _any_ code that works, except in a very few fields. So, what compelling reason is there for some unnamed developers (you don't mention apps, either), to try to optimize code to fit in the PS3 limitations? PPC Linux hasn't exactly been a huge success overall, either. I certainly don't see OO.org saying, 'Oh no, we now have to redo everything to run on PS3 better!' The project is simply too big.

That isn't to say that NO projects optimize code, or work in limited resources, so you can still piggyback off the DSL distro...but will still fall short of your 'compelling desktop replacement' system.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@ wegster

Quote:

Dell with their low cost PCs

What $500-$600 computer has a Blue Ray drive?

What $500-$600 computer can run a game at 1080p?

If you look at the system as a whole, it's has potential.

Kai Staats: "I cannot emphasize enough that the PS3 is designed for Linux and [is] far more than a game box,"

"Personally, I plan to remove my home DVD and CD decks and use instead a PS3 attached with my home theater for DVD, CD, MP3, and home computer—attached to a 5:1 14 speaker system with HD LCD. Elegant, simple, and powerful."

How can we forget the power and usability we were able to harvest from the classic Amigas? The PS3 is by far more powerful and resourceful. Does the Amiga community have a patent for doing the great things we have achieved? I don't think so.

Last edited by MikeB on 22-Nov-2006 at 08:23 AM.

The PS3 has wireless does it not?

Give me a remote control for the thing and there's an MP3 player playing MP3's from one of the other systems in the house.

I was considering finding a touchscreen flat panel x86 box as a media centre, just hang it on the wall and stream audio/video from it etc but the PS3 seems to fit the bill nicely. The only thing I don't like is running MP3's on a TV screen.

_________________
[quote]Amiga were also offered Amithlon before anyone else. I was the first to run it. It ROCKED HARD. I begged them to use it, we had a WINNER and could sell a bajillion of them. We owned all the rights to it! But sadly, Bill and Fleecy didn't want peopl

Quote:

It IS too bad Sony didn't leave a way to expand the RAM. If they had, it could render much of the above a non-argument. But, as it is...you'd best find a different tact if you plan on trying to sell these, because a desktop system for normal users, it will never be.

This rather depends on how you describe "normal user". I notice most people who argue PS3 will be a weak desktop are what I'd describe as "power users", for these people, no the PS3 will not make a good desktop replacement.

However "power users" are a small minority of overall users. Most people don't even know what Firefox tabs are never mind use 6 of them. For these sort of people - who make up 90% of the PC market - the PS3 will make a fine desktop replacement.

As for expanded RAM I wouldn't be surprised of Sony released a version with more or expandable RAM, they've already said the PS3 spec will change with time.

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Whyzzat?

@MikeB

media box != 'replacement desktop system,' which is the part of what you keep saying I'm taking issue with.

Media box? Sure.

Compelling desktop replacement, nope.

If Sony does up the RAM at some point (which would be interesting, not really done on consoles), then it becomes a contender, although will have to see regarding performance on normal tasks (although I think it will be certainly 'good enough).

Regarding Dells or other system, no to blu-ray at this point, but yeah, they can certainly output 1080p..

For your 'replacement desktop system' argument to hold water, please explain why people would need BluRay on their home PC, besides for media purposes, at which point it's a media player, and not the 'desktop replacement' you keep on about.

So, just stop pretending it's a worthwhile desktop computer, and we can leave it at it CAN be a useful media/STB.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

they can certainly output 1080p

Maybe some simple games, but not anything like Factor 5's Lair, also not at lower resolutions.

@ Wegster

Quote:

So, just stop pretending it's a worthwhile desktop computer, and we can leave it at it CAN be a useful media/STB

The c64 became a useful homecomputer and of course so can the PS3.

Quote:

The c64 became a useful homecomputer and of course so can the PS3.

Yes but the difference is that the C64 rocked.

I don't see that happening. The PC is in far too strong a position. As a home computer it is cheaper and more powerful as well as able to run far better productivity software.

Wegster is totally on the mark no matter how many people wrongly - and rather sadly - see the PS3 as some sort of born-again A500 which it so very certainly isn't.

Actually - compared to the 360 it is very underwhelming even as a games machine.

_________________
Sam

@ -Sam-

Quote:

Yes but the difference is that the C64 rocked

The Commodore 64 was released in1982, two years after the VIC20, initial software released wasn't impressive. Its better years were from 1984-1991.

1984 Boulder Dash
1984 Impossible Mission
1985 Monty on the Run
1985 The Way of the Exploding Fist
1985 Kung-Fu Master
1985 Yie Ar Kung-Fu
1985 Commando
1986 Paperboy
1986 Ghosts'n Goblins
1886 Fist 2
1986 Outrun
1987 Bubble Bobble
1987 The Last Ninja
1987 The great Giana Sisters
1988 LED Storm
1989 Turbo Outrun
1990 Turrican
1990 Creatures
1991 Turrican 2
1992 First Samurai
1992 Creatures 2
1993 Mayhem in Monsterland

My point being that IMO you cannot solely judge a gaming platform merely on the basis of some ported launch titles or a few updateable bugs.

More people comparing the PS3 / Linux with Amiga:

http://forums.ngemu.com/hardware-discussion/81175-ps3-amiga-parrallels.html