Since my english is not the best i'll keep this post short:

@all who think the fine against MS is wrong:

1. MS sells their products within the EU
2. MS has subcompanys within te EU (e.g. Microsoft Germany)
3. MS does know the anti-trust Laws in the EU (or at least their Lawyers do)
4. MS had the chance to change their behavior while the trial was going on

So why shouldn't they be judged as the EU laws allow it.
(btw the highest possible fine would have been 10% of their income = 3 Billion Euros )

Repeat after me: Monopolys are bad, Monopolys are bad, ...

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Netscape had to go from over half of their revenue being provided from browser purchases to virtually zero. This in part explains the "screw-ups" (lack of resources) in delivering a successful Netscape 6 product.

They could have refreshed Netscape 4 to 5 i.e. build on something that works.

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It has been proprietary format as with Word Prefect files. Microsoft is not the first company that breaks the compatibility with the older products.

For Heavens sake, Hammer! It doesn't justify, what MS is doing! And the difference from other cases is, that MS has monopoly!

Should we just sit back, us developers, and say, we can't make word processors, can't make spread sheets, can't make browsers, can't make media players, and so on and so on ... can't make software, because we can't make any money from it, because MS will just make something like it, and change Windows so our program won't work? Come on! MS has monopoly, and they exploit it against the law. Things have to change!

@DXE
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Repeat after me: Monopolys are bad, Monopolys are bad

Not necessarily It's bad when the monopolist abuses their monopoly position to maintain their monopoly and stifle competition.

monopoly monopoly monopoly monopoly!

@hammer
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They could have refreshed Netscape 4 to 5 i.e. build on something that works.

And then what? Where would they start making money?

Okay, with a statement like that I'm sure you must have some unique insight to the Netscape situation at the time that I'm not aware of, and could have saved Netscape with your infinite wisdom..?

Netscape created other products when they were forced out of browsers. They had to. They made enterprise-class web servers, and sold support for it. They had the portal thingy. But really, their core business was made worthless with zero compensation, whereas Microsoft could absorb the cost of IE within the sale price of every copy of windows sold.

- Paul

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Statement was made within the context of Windows not with the others. Secondly, MS has been dragging its feet with Mac IE 5.0 even before the Safari incident i.e. MS is just being lazy. Note that Safari is based on KDE's integrated html browser(1)? Reference; 1. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39145507,00.htm

I read the article but it just says that Safari is based on khtml?

What do you mean "Statement was made within the context of Windows"? Microsoft complained that Apple could make a better browser since Apple had access to the underlying operating system. You dont' find that ironic?

Of course, a decision like this is never down to just one reason. For one, Microsoft has won the browser wars. No need to continue to do a costly scorched-earth on alien fronts anymore.

- Paul

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Microsoft complained that Apple could make a better browser since Apple had access to the underlying operating system. You dont' find that ironic?

IE5.0 has been in a state flux before the Safari incident (i.e. not much movement in MS?s part). The argument was made to show the hypocrisy on one of complaint?s own arguments.

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Should we just sit back, us developers, and say, we can't make word processors, can't make spread sheets,

Note that, the current events didn?t stop SUN Microsystems in pouring R&D on StarOffice 7.

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can't make browsers

KDE?s browser is still round as I recall.

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Re: WMP. This isn't just about the software itself. It is about delivery channels, content distribution. The money in these players is not in registrations, but selling eg. access to media content, and royalties/licensing on setting up media delivery sites/companies/groups/networks that provide eg. streaming & on-demand content. If Microsoft is able to push WMP onto the masses, then they will conveniently have control over media content delivery channels. The future is in content delivery, and Microsoft wants to control that too. WMP, and restricting competition, is their solution.

IF that's was their argument, then the appropriate action should been the modification of WMP?s advertising channels and pay per view/download schemes. i.e. revert back to mediaplayer 6.4 status but with skin and plug-in (DSP, after effects) features sets.

Note that Australia has its monopoly infrastructure provider i.e. ACCC forced Telstra to share the infrastructure with its competitors. There?s no need for slice and dice.

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KDE?s browser is still round as I recall.

And are the KDE developers making a living off it?

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For Heavens sake, Hammer

Getting personal is irrelevant in this case.

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There?s no need for slice and dice.

Do you work for Microsoft?

Just kidding.

@Hammer

This is my last post in this thread.

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Note that, the current events didn?t stop SUN Microsystems in pouring R&D on StarOffice 7.

And how much money did (and do) Sun have to backup the StarOffice development? Yes, alot! And why do they do it, even if they loose money on it?

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KDE?s browser is still round as I recall.

And how much money do they make on the KDE browser?

Are you a MS employee or something? No, this question is not irrelevant, because if you are, I can better understand your points.

@csirac

Issues involved are;
1. How do we keep MS?s right to improve its products?
2. How do we help other competitors to have market access to the customers?

Sharing of infrastructure is a better proposition for everybody involved than restricting one party to include *improvements* while letting the other parties without restrictions on *improvements*.

Did you see Oz?s Gov/ACCC slicing and dicing Telstra (?monopoly?)? We saw a setup for sharing of infrastructure so that the competitors can have access to customers.
The main arguments were for the access for customers.

I feel the EU bureaucrats do not have the experience in dealing with monopolies without stifling innovations for all parties involve. The EU?s decision has now attracted the US Gov into this episode (a trade war is dangerous for all sides).

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And how much money did (and do) Sun have to backup the StarOffice development? Yes, alot! And why do they do it, even if they loose money on it?

Note that SUN has a near free labour access via OpenOffice scheme. StarOffice exist for other Sun?s based solutions. PS I personally like Sun?s StarOffice 7.0 since it unifies Windows, Solaris and Linux office environments.

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Do you work for Microsoft?

We use Oracle for the basis of developing MIS(business rules centric) systems. I would say no at this stage.

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And are the KDE developers making a living off it?

Red Hat Linux group is a billion company (and that?s a few years ago).

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@ csirac
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Not necessarily It's bad when the monopolist abuses their monopoly position to maintain their monopoly and stifle competition.

Monopolys are always Bad because without competition there there is no or at least only verry slow development.

@Hammer

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Red Hat Linux group is a billion company (and that?s a few years ago).

KDE && Linux != Redhat!!

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Note that SUN has a near free labour access via OpenOffice scheme. StarOffice exist for other Sun?s based solutions. PS I personally like Sun?s StarOffice 7.0 since it unifies Windows, Solaris and Linux office environments.

It doesnt' worry you that Microsoft has created an environment where the only product that can hope to compete has to a) work for free b) give product away for free?

- Paul