@fabio

Quote:

LONG there means "long word" as on a 68k architecture, which means 32 bits. Windows uses the same approach, except that it calls it DWORD

But we aren't on a 68k anymore. Anyone reading the PowerPC processor manual will always see "word" when they refer to a CPU word. The types "int32" and "uint32" are completely unambigious - it clearly states that it is (signed or unsigned) 32 bit quantity. No discussion about what a word is (16 vs. 32. vs 64 bits).

DWORD in Windows comes from "double word", which is a testament to Windows' 16 bit legacy.

Quote:

This goal was already achieved well before the "old" AmigaOS types have been deprecated by Hyperion.

No it wasn't. There had been a lot of discussion on this topic on the developer mailing list, but no one came up with a good name for the 64 bit integer types. No surprise really, how do you name it? 'QUAD'? 'LONGLONG' 'ULONGLONG'?

Now there is a very simple pattern:

[u] int [8|16|32|64]

That will always work, and is completely unambigious, especially if you have developers that are new to the Amiga.

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@ fabio

Quote:

Windows uses the same approach, except that it calls it DWORD

Yeah, because Windows, like the Amiga types, have their root in 16 bit.

Quote:

This goal was already achieved well before the "old" AmigaOS types have been deprecated by Hyperion

If you know AmigaOS, maybe. If you don't, you'll be confused, especially if you have a PowerPC background.

I don't really understand why you're so upset with this. The old types are still there, so what's the problem ?

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@ Codesmith

Quote:

'm starting to think that you're just pissed off that the new typedefs introduce source incompatibility with AROS, and that is the real reason why you don't like the deprecation of the typedefs (I'm not going to go into religious territory, but that reason has also crossed my mind)

That has never been the intention.

The whole issue came up when we wanted to include 64 bit integer type that was needed for timer.device. We discussed this on the internal mailing list, and there where several proposals, like QUAD, ULONG64, ULONGLONG, etc. In the end, the discussion revolved around exaclty these problems: Why a QUAD ? It was proposed, but actually, a 64 bit integer it 8 bytes, so it should be called an OCT ? Sound stupid, right ? A QUAD means 4 WORDs, but a word on the PPC is 32 bit.

ULONG64: Why suddenly a number behind the type ? No other type had this.
ULONGLONG: Perhaps the best proposal, but hard to read and a bit long (no pun intended )

In the end, we just decided to go for the method we have now, and "drop" the old types alltogether. It definitely made things easier to understand.

In the whole discussion, neither AROS or any other AmigaOS clone was ever mentioned nor considered. Given the fact that it's easy to provide these types in any "compatibility" type header file (like you said yourself), it would also be stupid to use this as a weapon against a competitor. The same weapon would also backfire on us because using this to make AROS source incompatible would also mean making OS3 source code incompatible. OS3 source code compatibiltiy has always been a goal, so why artificially make it more difficult ?

The step was a necessity to make type names more consistent, and I think the regular pattern for creating these type names makes them easy to understand, so why not ? Just because you're used to BYTE, WORD and LONG ? If you want to, continue to use them. Nobody is stopping you, most of all not us.

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

Quote:

The reasoning is already clearly explained in the "AmigaOS 4 Migration Guide" which is included with the SDK all OS4 developers will be accessing shortly.

Obviously I won't have access to that "migration guide", or else I wouln't have asked the question in the 1st place.

Don't anything bad in asking the question here.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Quote:

Really? I admire your certainty. Have you ever gone to a programming class, or are you one of those rare gifted individuals who could write a shell sort before he knew how to walk?

Sigh... why is it that it's almost always impossible to have with you a calm discussion about something? Did you really need to question my programming abilities, or even if I ever went to a "programming class"? Besides, what has that got anything to do with what we're talking about?

Anyway, to answer your question: I went to more than one programming class, and I still go nowadays (you know, you never stop learning), and yes, I learned programming much earlier than the majority of people, but I fail to see, as said, what has this got to do with anything.

Quote:

For the sake of expediency I'm going to just assume that you're correct, and that is what "LONG" really means (as opposed to, say, "the same type as 'long' in the compiler used in-house to write AmigaOS 1.0").

Why assume? That is exactly what it's meant to mean. It mirrors the 68k types: byte, word and long. If you ever programmed something in 68k asm, you'd know that every mnemonic has a size modifier, which can be one of b, w or l, which stand for byte, word and long, which are, respectively, 8, 16 and 32 bits wide.

Quote:

If we wanted AmigaOS to stay a 3.1 clone for ever, that would make perfect sense. However, AmigaOS is now a PPC OS, and PPC is quickly going 64 bit. What type do we use to represent a 64 bit integer, ie the natural machine word size? QWORD?

QUAD. AROS uses QUAD, as I already told you, it has done so for 7 years: you see, someone was there first and invented a solution. That someone also thought about how to represent pointers as integers in a portable way, well before c99 came about, and that solution was to define a type named IPTR. You see, another problem, another solution.

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If a machine word is 64 bits wide already, what does the Q stand for?

You seem to confuse things abit... you constantly forget that the old types just mean something about their size, ans nothing else, so QUAD would stand for QUAD WORD, were a WORD would be 16 bits. Is that really so difficult to get?

Quote:

If you look at the drafts for the new "longhorn" Windows APIs, you'll see that Microsoft also wants to get rid of the old 16 bit baggage. In fact, in C# a "long" is a 64 bit integer.

That's a completely different issue. You're talking about a compiler's builtin type, not about a system-wide type.

Quote:

I'm starting to think that you're just pissed off that the new typedefs introduce source incompatibility with AROS, and that is the real reason why you don't like the deprecation of the typedefs (I'm not going to go into religious territory, but that reason has also crossed my mind). In the time it took you to write your "I want my old typedefs back" post, you could have written an "os4types.h" file, which would have made this whole thing a non-issue for AROS. I guess getting it off your chest gave you more satisfaction.

What to say... Clearly the one with a strange (to say the least) attitude here is you, certainly not me. First you question my programming abilities, then you make innuendo about my motives for asking such a little question, and then you even make it appear as if I were stupid and couldn't think of the (obvious) solution myself.

Mr. Smith, how about calming down, taking a deep breath, and realizing that you've made a big fuss about such a minor issue? Why getting upset about it at all? Is it so unforgivable, in your view, that I ask such a tiny question or - gasp - dare questioning such a thing?

Can I say "grow up" ?

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Quote:

However, the old ones are still available. We just thought that it was a good idea to clean up with this.

Well, it's indeed a good idea to have also available types with an explicit bit number in their name, however the word deprecated had me worried there: you deprecate something so that you can get rid of it later on.

As for the confusion: when one programs in C, he doesn't care about what the underlying processor ABI calls certain types with certain sizes, he only cares abou what C types mean, and what system-wide types mean. Thus, if one knows that WORD is 16 bit, as it's always been, then there's no confusion. IMHO, of course.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Quote:

No it wasn't. There had been a lot of discussion on this topic on the developer mailing list, but no one came up with a good name for the 64 bit integer types. No surprise really, how do you name it? 'QUAD'? 'LONGLONG' 'ULONGLONG'?

QUAD, I dare say, as that was alredy chosen by someone else in the community. Just like IPTR.

I mean, someone was there first, got in the problem and found the solution.

You're likely to get problems by using the types you want to use now, because they're not standard, and many programs define their own with that exact name. Better would have been capitalizing them, or even just use the c99 types (although they have the "ugly" trailing _t).

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Quote:

Why a QUAD ? It was proposed, but actually, a 64 bit integer it 8 bytes, so it should be called an OCT ? Sound stupid, right ? A QUAD means 4 WORDs, but a word on the PPC is 32 bit.

But since WORD means 16 bits in AmigaOS, and even in AmigaOS4, or so I understand, QUAD would have meant 64 bits. Anyway, this is going quite farter than I wanted... I just wanted to ask a question, and get the answer

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

I never liked purple screen with AmigaOS4 text you weer using for default wallpaper and AmigaOS presentations :(

You can get some examples I created how default wallpaper should look like. Simple with not so big AmigaOS4 letters! Get them from here [1600x1200]:

http://www.djnick.org/aos4-0.jpg
http://www.djnick.org/aos4-1.jpg
http://www.djnick.org/aos4-2.jpg
http://www.djnick.org/aos4-3.jpg

And Icons looks terrible [sorry]. There are at least 3 different types of icons - old fashion, GlowIcons and GlowIcons like with black outline!

Not pro to me :(

dj.

_________________
nykk | deetronic.rs | youtube.com/djnykk | gfx.river | mamavolibebu.com

@ fabio

Quote:

QUAD, I dare say, as that was alredy chosen by someone else in the community. Just like IPTR.

QUAD is a bad choice. QUAD implies something with '4'. It's not a QUAD, it's either 8 bytes, or two longs, but assuming it's 4 words is completely alien. 32 bit CPUs have 32 bit words. Just because we have a legacy in 68k doesn't mean we have to carry it's nomenclature around for ages.

Quote:

I mean, someone was there first, got in the problem and found the solution.

Ahh, so now we know why you're upset. You think that you should be the one to decide for the whole Amiga "community", because AROS chose QUAD ?

I'm sorry if I sound rude now (It's not intentional), but it's not AROS responsibility to make decisions for OS4. WE decide what we do in OS4.

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You're likely to get problems by using the types you want to use now, because they're not standard

Huh ? Just like UBYTE, APTR and BPTR which are a standard ?

Quote:

Better would have been capitalizing them

Ah, so you think that somebody else would use an uint32 in his own program, but not an UINT32 ? I can't really follow *that* logic. With these new types, there's one thing you can't do: You can't mistake them for something else. They clearly define what they are. Nobody would typedef an uint32 as a signed char, but an ULONG might end up being an unsigned long long in some program.

Quote:

or even just use the c99 types (although they have the "ugly" trailing _t)

And make them clash with other headers defining them ?

No, we had to find a solution, and we chose one that we thought was the best.

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

Quote:

But sinde WORD means 16 bits in AmigaOS, and even in AmigaOS4, or so I understand, QUAD would have meant 64 bits.

And where does the type "QUAD" in any way express that it's 4 WORDs ? Right, it doesn't. So QUAD is the wrong choice, as simple as that.

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@ djnick

The icons in the SDK archive are consistent, i.e. all of them glowicons.

And as the SDK is just that (developer information), there's also no background.

Last but not least, the screenshots where not made by a pro, but by a developer who wanted to show what's in the SDK. I think it's a bit unfair to tell him his workbench looks ugly (you should see mine )

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@fabio

Quote:

which stand for byte, word and long, which are, respectively, 8, 16 and 32 bits wide.

Wrong. The PowerPC manual uses 'word' to signify a 32 bit machine word, NOT a 16 bit word.

Quote:

QUAD. AROS uses QUAD, as I already told you,

So basically you are upset because we didn't copy AROS' names? Sorry, but what if we had named it QUAD? You would probably go on to complain we copied from AROS, wouldn't you (don't answer, it's a rhetorical question)

Quote:

it has done so for 7 years: you see, someone was there first and invented a solution.

You're upset because you where "there first" and we didn't "respect" your choice? Sorry to say so, and you're probably going to call me arrogant now (you wouldn't be the first for today ), but AROS' decisions are AROS' decisions, and not AmigaOS 4's decisions. You might think that QUAD is a good idea; we don't. Like I said (repeatedly now) a word in PowerPC means 32 bits. It was therefore the only viable alternative to get rid of this misleading thing.

Quote:

so QUAD would stand for QUAD WORD, were a WORD would be 16 bits. Is that really so difficult to get?

As usual, you overlook the detail that a word isn't 16 bits. Of course you chose to ignore this because it does not fit your reasoning. Any seasoned Amiga programmer will probably know that a WORD used to mean 16 bits, but anyone else will have a hard time understanding why a WORD would only be half the machine's word size. (32 bits).

Therefore the types have been replaced by type names that EVERYONE will understand. You will probably not deny that an int32 or int64 is completely unambigious when it comes to understand their size, or would you?

_________________
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Sorry, if I upset you.

I'll tell you a secret though, the SDK is not affected at all by the type of icons or background you use in your Workbench.

The Glowicons-like with a border around are part of a set I'm designing, the Glowicons ones are the default and the old style ones are from Aminet apps I've installed to make my life easier.

I haven't bothered to make icons for all the Aminet apps yet, just give me a couple of 2174915 days and I'll do that...

_________________
Nicolas Mendoza

Quote:

QUAD, I dare say, as that was alredy chosen by someone else in the community. Just like IPTR. I mean, someone was there first, got in the problem and found the solution.

Someone was there first in 1985 and found the 68k CPU as a solution.

Where does that get us? Nowhere. The 68k is quite obviously dead as a doorknob. Time to move on to a different solution, obviously. I don't understand why you need to make such a fuss about it; obviously AROS has taken a different route in the first place, so what are you worrying about? Or is this just about your Ego, because you think we should have followed the same decision as you did?

Quote:

You're likely to get problems by using the types you want to use now, because they're not standard,

Now you are becoming ridiculous. It isn't as if WORD and LONG and friends are "standard" by any means. They're used exclusively in AmigaOS. The old typedefs are still there, so you can still use them for legacy code, but other than that, the new naming scheme *is* the new standard for AmigaOS.

I really don't understand your problem with this.

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Quote:

But sinde WORD means 16 bits in AmigaOS, and even in AmigaOS4, or so I understand, QUAD would have meant 64 bits

WORD does not mean 16 bits in AmigaOS 4; the typedef is reproduced for compatibility reasons, and will vanish as soon as possible.

Plainly, we make the standards. We listen to input as much as we can, but some decisions are simply made. I am not going to tell you that QUAD in AROS is a problem, but in AmigaOS a 64 bit quantity is an int64 (signed) or uint64 (unsigned).

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@ djnick

As usual, I love your backdrops Especially aos4-3.jpg.

However, this is always a matter of taste. Please remember that this is the default look, and I am quite certain that in a few days time from release, we'll have seen at least a dozend different workbench shots from people that customized their workbench. That is what the Amiga has always stood for (variety).

Same goes for Icons.

_________________
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Quote:

QUAD is a bad choice. QUAD implies something with '4'.

True: 4 words. What's difficult about it?

Quote:

It's not a QUAD, it's either 8 bytes, or two longs, but assuming it's 4 words is completely alien.

Even assuming one word is completely alien, as you say, since a WORD on ppc is 32 bits, but you still have WORD, or so you say.

Quote:

32 bit CPUs have 32 bit words. Just because we have a legacy in 68k doesn't mean we have to carry it's nomenclature around for ages.

Windows does the same, and windows (well, some versions of it) runs on PPC too. The types have stayed the same.

Quote:

Ahh, so now we know why you're upset. You think that you should be the one to decide for the whole Amiga "community", because AROS chose QUAD ?

Me upset? When did I show to be upset? Au contraire, it seems I managed to set upset quite a lot of you, just by questioning a decision which I don't deem appropriate. I'm not upset at all, it's just that, as said, someone was there first, and it would have made sense to not reinvent the wheel.

Quote:

I'm sorry if I sound rude now (It's not intentional), but it's not AROS responsibility to make decisions for OS4. WE decide what we do in OS4.

Entirely your right to do so, but you are right now coming out quite arrogant. I never said you HAD to chose what AROS has chosen, I just said that it would have made sense.

Quote:

Huh ? Just like UBYTE, APTR and BPTR which are a standard ?

Stop for a moment, please, and try to reflect about a simple issue: you can't export the new types to other apps than AmigaOS ones anyway. You can't make, for instance, posix apps see those types, because the standard doesn't define them. If you do, you'll get a great chance of incurring in clashes. You can't even export the old types, for that matter, and GCC is a good example of SW that doesn't like the old types, because it defines its own.

But, UBYTE and friends are standard within the AmigaOS set of SW, whilst uint8 and friends are not.

Quote:

Ah, so you think that somebody else would use an uint32 in his own program, but not an UINT32 ? I can't really follow *that* logic.

It's less likely that a fully capitalized type name clashes with other type names. Anyway, this is a minor issue, really, don't get too focused on it.

Quote:

With these new types, there's one thing you can't do: You can't mistake them for something else. They clearly define what they are. Nobody would typedef an uint32 as a signed char, but an ULONG might end up being an unsigned long long in some program.

But since you can't export those types anyway, ULONG will never be redefined by anything, the system-default definition will be used, and that will always be a 32 bit type.

Quote:

or even just use the c99 types (although they have the "ugly" trailing _t) And make them clash with other headers defining them ?

Ehum... they are defined in stdint.h, they come with the compiler, you don't have to even care about defining them, they're defined for you. Just include stdint.h in exec/types.h, and that's it.

Quote:

No, we had to find a solution, and we chose one that we thought was the best.

Well, as you can see, not everyone thinks it's the best

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Quote:

And where does the type "QUAD" in any way express that it's 4 WORDs ? Right, it doesn't. So QUAD is the wrong choice, as simple as that.

Uh?! QUAD stands for QUAD WORD, and LONG stands for LONG WORD. Where's the difficulty in that?!

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Okey thread, don't make this QUAD business into a long draw "I know best" battle. State your position on the matter and then be done with it. repeating or explaining things ad infinitum won't do anyone any good. Things are as they are, it's as simple as that, and you can't force people into having the same opinion as youselves.

/Björn