Ok, this clarifies things somewhat.

There is still one question in my mind, and I hope someone from Hyperion could answer.

If one wants to have OS4 running in their hardware, what is the correct procedure to follow and how to get that port done? Who to contact and in which order to get things done? Who requires payments and license fees?

Why can't it just be that some hw producer show intrest and gives required documentation for Hyperion, Hyperion creates port if they see it viable, sell it to users of that hardware (or creates some bundle option with hw-producers) and Amiga gets some slice from sells for the Name?

Or in more words, could it be following in near future, or is it already something like this:
1) Get OK from Amiga Inc for HW and to allow Hyperion to proceed.
2a) If Hyperion sees it easy enough, they could just make the port for this new hardware and sell it seperately for it by themselves, directly getting money and giving some license money to Amiga, or allow hw producer to bundle it with new hardware with some payment / machine.
2b) If it requires more work, Hyperion requires upfront some money from 3rd party to do conversion, and only after this do the same as in 2a.

I'm not sure if I'm talking about something irrelevant, or if this has been explained somewhere, but I think that this information would intrest possible hw-makers?

Last edited by quenthal on 20-Sep-2006 at 06:32 PM.

@Chris_Y

Well said!

Just to let you know: we're talking about an OS that's outdated in every aspects (and I mean *every* aspects) when compared with any today non-hobby OS. We're talking about an OS that currentlty has barely 1000 users (yes ! one *thousand*, in the whole world !).

And every developper seem to want to protect any line of C code he has written, by using, it belongs to me, you need to get a licence...

Maybe you should open your eyes ? And stop behaving like this ? I guess even Apple doesn't protect stuff like this... So, why should you ? What you use your so called ExecSG kernel for if OS4 wasn't there ? Who would use Roadshow if there was no OS4... And the same goes for every OS4 parts people seem to own, have rights,... I really don't get it: people are working for the same project, should want the same goal and still, they protect their stuff as if there were all working on a different project...

Just my two cents...

Leo.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

Quote:

I'm not sure if I'm talking about something irrelevant, or if this has been explained somewhere, but I think that this information would intrest possible hw-makers?

The first port of contact is known (from previous answers given to questions regarding porting to hardware) to be Amiga Inc. I'm sure once Amiga Inc have given that their blessing to any port that they will be able to either initiate the necessary actions or point the hardware developer in the direction of Hyperion or any other parties that need to be involved.

Until someone has passed that first hurdle, anything else is academic anyway.

@Rogue

Quote:

I'm sorry, but yes, they do. If it hadn't been for Hyperion, the whole project would have NEVER EVER come to be.

I didn't say that their praise was undeserved. I said I didn't have the facts to make
that opinion. Your response certainly gives me more information to make a more
educated opinion. Please remember that most of us are not privledged to the same
information that you have access to. That's why people read between the lines with
many statements that are made, though with my response, I was trying to do the
opposite. As far as I know, the Hyperion management could be overworking you and
not paying your salary in a timely manner. Obviously this is not the case, but hopefully
this clarifies my statement. I just want to make sure that any praise I give is to the
right people.

C Snyder

Last edited by bigsnyder on 20-Sep-2006 at 07:08 PM.

_________________
"Space Mountain might be the oldest ride in the park, but it still has one of the longest lines!" - Ric Flair

@MikeyC and all

Wayne Hunt has just posted a clarification from Amiga. Please read this:

http://www.amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6970

Hi!
GOOD to ear that things...
Only one thing to say:
As someone else sayd I hope that an Update5 will be released before final because another 4/5 months without any update wasnt so nice...
And OS4upd4 have some critical aspect to be solved like the lacking overlay support on Radeon boards...
Dont you think that?

GOOD WORK!

Tuxedo.

P.S. I hope too that more final release wait to be done more possibility we have to see included OpenGL on it...
I think development will be boosted by that thing...

Last edited by Tuxedo on 20-Sep-2006 at 07:18 PM.

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Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

Quote:

Quote: what's really in question (and worrisome) is the ownership of the various pieces of the OS, What exactly is worrisome about that? There are contracts in place that regulate what can be done and what not, there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

The worrisome thing is that a single product and it's sources belongs to a plethora of individuals instead of one company.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

Quote:

i think rogue has already addressed this as they(hyperion) have a contract to use ExecSG. when bound by a contract they cannot just pull the program out of os4. the worst thing that could happen is for them not to sign a new contract for4.1,4.2 etc but os4 is safe.

"Use" is not "ownership", which means that there is no possibility for further development unless the Friedens agree to do it, subcontract someone else to do it for them, or decide to sell their sources, and therefore ownership, to someone else that can/wants to take this on.

The worst case scenario is that ExecSG is sold or lost to someone that sits on it indefinately or wishes to can it, which would mean no further development of AOS4.x beyond 4.0 would be possible.

This is hardly an ideal situation IMHO.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

Quote:

if they lost ExecSG they would just commission a new one or create it in house.

Yeah, assuming they had the money and/or interest to wait another 6 years for it! ...not likely. AOS4.x would effectively be dead, plain and simple.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

@elatour
Quote:

The worst case scenario is that ExecSG is sold or lost

I start to think that some comments are made on purpose to make some people angry. Come on, you know that this *can't* happen. We are talking about the Frieden brothers here.
They did a lot of work on this baby and they won't let it down for sure.

Next comment please.

Last edited by elwood on 20-Sep-2006 at 10:18 PM.

_________________
Philippe 'Elwood' Ferrucci
Sam460 1.10 Ghz
AmigaOS 4 betatester
Amiga Translator Organisation

@elwood
Quote:

I start to think that some comments are made on purpose to make some people angry.

Get real. I don't know about you or others here, but I have better things to do with my life than to waste any time in trying to find new ways to make people angry.

Quote:

Come on, you know that this *can't* happen. We are talking about the Frieden brothers here. They did a lot of work on this baby and they won't let it down for sure.

I'm not saying that they have the intent to do this any time soon, if ever. Let's be realistic though, at some point, whether 1 year or 5 years from now, someone might make them an offer they can't refuse and they'll take it, and who could blame them. There are a million reasons why they might do this, all of them very reasonable and understandable. For instance, they may run into hard times, eventually either loose interest or simply not have enough time to work on something that is either less profitable or not profitable at all anymore, at which point nobody could blame them for wanting to have a life outside of all of this heavenly environment. What might be even worse, is if Hyperion and/or some other key OS4 developers with some of the key components go under, then ExecSG becomes pretty much useless or at the very least ALOT less valuabe without having to pour an awful lot of money, work and/or time into buying and/or recreating some of the components lost, that is even IF they could or even wanted to afford to navigate the legal minefields to do so.

What I am trying to get accross here is that different people owning different parts of the whole greatly increases the likelihood that the OS will not survive over the long term in it's current ownership scheme. I'm not saying that this will happen, just that there is a high risk that it will happen at some point. All one has to do is look what has been shed along the way each time the the Amiga IP and brand name has changed hands, to see that this has already happened and will most likely happen again and again until there is nothing left worth having. The Amiga is certainly not unique in this regard, it's just the reality of business in the technology world that such things have, do and will continue to happen all of the time.

I won't even get into what some potential technology partners or investors would say if they knew about this fractured binary, source code, and IP ownership issue. This would sound alarm bells and strike fear of future liabilities, lawsuits, product availibity risks, etc.? Imagine trying to negotiate enhancements to the OS for your consumer product that depends on OS4 and having to potentially negotiate with up 40 individuals, assuming they're still around and interested in doing the work!

LIke I said before, I for one find this very worrisome, at least for the future of the OS anyway.

This is of course only IMHO, and pretty much all it can be seeing as we don't exactly have any clue, and probably and understandably never will, as to what each contract between AInc., Hyperion and each of the 40 or so contractors contains.

Last edited by elatour on 21-Sep-2006 at 02:40 AM.
Last edited by elatour on 21-Sep-2006 at 02:36 AM.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

@elatour

I agree with your concerns, I have the same ones. Geez, I've posted as much about it as anyone. I posted because I was concerned about bad things happening to something that we have waited so long to see. (And Rogue, I'm sorry I got you angry). But for now, and especially since Hyperion have assured us that there is no cause for alarm over the development and release of OS4, and Amiga Inc have essentially said the same thing in their clarification statement, we have to give them our trust.

I will since both parties have stepped forward to clear things up. I still don't like it (the source code thing)... but I'm going to trust that the lawyers for both parties are going to be sure things are squared up in a way that will not leave either one in a bad situation.

In fact, now that I've had time to think about it some more, I am glad that they have lawyers to sort out their contract and paperwork. Bill insists that both sides are working things out in a friendly manner. Hyperion assures us that things will progress with OS4 final, and Amiga Inc tells us that OS4 will come about as well, and fits with their short term and long term plans.

That's why I say we have to give them our trust. Give them time to complete the negotiations and get everything on a proper working term that they both can agree to. We can move forward from there.

Quote:

To be fair - even with a unified company running the show - to invest in the Amiga as a user would still be a risk as the platform is so fragile with next to no users and no mainstream support.

I have no problem taking some risks, but it is a whole different question when i know that it is doomed because of no future updates.

Quote:

but I'm going to trust that the lawyers for both parties are going to be sure things are squared up in a way that will not leave either one in a bad situation.

Boy, I wish that were true! The only one that always ends up squared up and not in a bad situation is the lawyers! For the other two parties in this disagreement, it is a crap shoot, and I don't think any of us on the forums knows enough to guess who is going to come out on top, or if both will be satisfied with the outcome.

I really hope that they can come to a mutual agreement without losing too much to the f*#&ing lawyers. If not, it could be bad for all of us, not just the disatisfied party.

Rogue's comments seem pretty p!ssed off at AInc's answers to those 25 ???'s so far, and that is not a good sign.

Last edited by amigadave on 21-Sep-2006 at 04:22 AM.

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Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

Quote:

we are gonna end up with the MorphOS vs AmigaOS4 wars but this time it will be split 3 ways.

Yes, the community split even more, now is MorphOS vs AmigaOS4 vs AmigaOS5 vs AROS.Anybody more can contribute to split even more and make their own AmigaOS clone?

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

Quote:

That sounds pretty dead end to me. At least it could be in that senario.

It does so because you want it to. You are looking to misinterpret things to your liking. You have absolutely no idea how the contract looks, it might be that it grants Hyperion special rights in case we want to pull out of it.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

Quote:

What would stop you from deciding that you didn't want Hyperion to use ExecSG in OS4 anymore, and pull your code from them?

Uhm, maybe the fact that we have a CONTRACT with them that gives them a license to use it in OS4 ? Maybe the fact that we can't terminate that from one side ? Maybe you should give Hyperion more credit, since they aren't stupid and would not go into a license where one side can simply pull the plug on anything that they are basing their stuff on ?

Quote:

Do you not understand how the thought of this can be worrisome for your projected user base?

No, I can't. There is a contract. I (and Hyperion, too) usually stick to contracts I signed.

Quote:

t already happed with the similiar situation of MorphOS where part of the coders took their code and broke up the OS.

No, that's plain and simply wrong. There has been a dispute about the contract in question (alledgedly, some people haven't been paid), and this subsequently made some people pull out of their contracts.

Quote:

I'm sorry, but until Hyperion or Amiga either one can say "we own the sources 100%", I won't be buying anything.

Oh come on.

Did you buy OS3.1 ? Do you know that ARexx was a third party product that has been licensed ?

Did you buy OS3.5 ? Do you know that the fonts, Reaction, CrossDOS etc were licensed products

Fact is ALMOST NO VERSION of AmigaOS have ever been without licensed components.
So why the frell is that suddenly a big problem for you ?

Oh, and did you buy Windows XP ? Guess how many parts of Windows XP are licensed, not only as code, but as patent licenses, too.

I'm sorry, but you are blowing this whole situation completely out of proportions. Deals such as this (licensing something in binary form) are absolutely common in the computer industry, and contracts are used to prevent such projects from collapsing.

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

Quote:

It makes you yet another legal and/or financial stumbling block to anyone who wants to get OS4 ported. This doesn't benefit OS4 in any way, just you and your brother. Your relationship with Hyperion could go South at any time in a variety of ways, effectively splitting OS4.

Sorry, that's rubbish. No previous version of AmigaOS was without licensed third-party components (AREXX, Reaction to name a few).

Quote:

Way to go, guys!

Thank you. I've spent a frigging five years on the project, so spare me your cynism.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

Quote:

Poster: Toaks Date: 20-Sep-2006 16:30:20 Quote: Rogue said that they did have the 3.5 and 3.9 sources. erm, ok if you say so.

Yes I said so. I said we had the OS 3.5 and 3.9 sources except for those that where done by H&P, who didn't want to give them to us.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail