@Wiffy

Quote:

Wiffy wrote: @klesterjr Atheism is not a religion.

uuh yes it is. not organized into a religion but is religious in itself since athiesm is the belief of no god.

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@Wiffy
Quote:

Definition: 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. 2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. 3. Godlessness; immorality.

Nice try -- but Atheism is a set of "beliefs" (as your definition points out).

If you don't have the stomach for this -- that's fine -- it's your call.

@jkirk

Quote:

jkirk wrote: @Wiffy Quote: Wiffy wrote: @klesterjr Atheism is not a religion. uuh yes it is. not organized into a religion but is religious in itself since athiesm is the belief of no god.

Incorrect.

A = Without.
Theism = Religion.

Look it up in an English dictionary. (Yes, and ENGLISH one, not an American one)

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@klesterjr

Quote:

klesterjr wrote: @Wiffy Quote: Definition: 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. 2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. 3. Godlessness; immorality. Nice try -- but Atheism is a set of "beliefs" (as your definition points out). If you don't have the stomach for this -- that's fine -- it's your call.

The word "Atheism" by it very meaning has no beliefs.

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@nicholas

if it makes you feel better.

Last edited by jkirk on 24-May-2005 at 02:30 PM.

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@jkirk

Its a point of disbelief, not belief, an application of occams razor combined with the need for proof before coming to a conclusion.

Besides, belief does not equal religion, directly.

Belief:

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

Religion:

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

The closest definition you can get is Religion.4 approximating to Belief.3, using the strict definition of tenet:

"An opinion, doctrine, or principle held as being true by a person or especially by an organization. See Synonyms at doctrine."

But even then, that would be too close to relying on vagueries to be a truthful line of deductive reasoning.

So no, Atheists are not Religious.

@Wiffy

so in other words anti-religion is good
religion is bad
is this what you are saying?

Last edited by jkirk on 24-May-2005 at 02:33 PM.

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@Wiffy

Atheist Definition from you:
Quote:

Definition: 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. 2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. 3. Godlessness; immorality.

We might want to include the Definition of religion as some undoubtly will claim that belief is a religion.
1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
1b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion


So, while atheist might be considered a religion via 4 it's not the same as Christiantiy which it typically all 1-4.

@jkirk

Quote:

jkirk wrote: @Wiffy so in other words anti-religion is good religion is bad is this what you are saying?

Without-Religion != Anti-Religion

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@jkirk

No, that would be a very stupid assertion. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Im saying that the promotion of ones beliefs whilst denegrating another or a group of people is 'bad'.

@Wiffy

Did you know I just posted an illegal post on this very thread?

Go back and look at my " " "joke". See if you can suss out what I did there?

@nicholas
Quote:

The word "Atheism" by it very meaning has no beliefs.

Which in and of itself is a set of beliefs -- remedial philosophy.

Quote:

jkirk wrote: Quote: Wiffy wrote: Atheism is not a religion. uuh yes it is. not organized into a religion but is religious in itself since athiesm is the belief of no god.

Bzzzt! I'm sorry but that's the wrong answer, but thank you for playing.

Athiesm is not generally speaking a religion as such, it is more a philosophical viewpoint of the universe around the athiest. If you hang around alt.athiesm for any length of time you may spot (between the flames, counter-flames, trolls and religious rantings from Xian funnymentalists) the terms "weak atheist" and "strong athiest", and no this is no measure of how much the individual athiests can benchpress.

WEAK ATHIESTS - Those who do not believe in the existance of God(ess)(s/es).
STRONG ATHIESTS - Those who believe that God(ess)(s/es) do not and can not exist.

The difference is not immediately obvious (to most of the whackos who intrude into alt.athiesm at any rate), but is crucial in that one position is essentially a passive worldview in many respects while the other is a more active point of view.

For the record I was a weak atheist, am now a strong atheist.



Doug

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@klesterjr

The absense of one thing is the antithesis of the presense of that one thing. So no.

@klesterjr

Quote:

klesterjr wrote: @nicholas Quote: The word "Atheism" by it very meaning has no beliefs. Which in and of itself is a set of beliefs -- remedial philosophy.

One must have beliefs to be religious but not all beliefs are religious.

@Wiffy
Quote:

So no, Atheists are not Religious.

Whatever you say -- you da' boss!

(Out here in the real world it's every bit as much a religion as any group that claims to be religious.)

@klesterjr

Quote:

klesterjr wrote: @nicholas Quote: The word "Atheism" by it very meaning has no beliefs. Which in and of itself is a set of beliefs -- remedial philosophy.

How do you jump to that conclusion?

No one atheist beleives the same as another athiest. They don't BELEIVE there is no God..

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@klesterjr

Quote:

klesterjr wrote: @Wiffy Quote: So no, Atheists are not Religious. Whatever you say -- you da' boss! (Out here in the real world it's every bit as much a religion as any group that claims to be religious.)

Again, please explain what you mean. It really makes no sense.

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@Wiffy

so regardless of whether it is religious or not putting down someone's beliefs is bad.
two way street.

i'm wasn't attacking you this is literally the interpretation of where this thread is going. I just wanted it cleared up because some believe that attacking religion is fine but voicing religion is not good.

eliminating religious references but allowing non religious(anti religious) statements in sigs would be unfair.

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@jkirk

I agree. It would be unfair.