I like the idea of a "War forum", where angry threads (which don't quite violate the TOS) can be moved, which would also remove them from the front page. Most probably any thread over 10 pages should go there too!

I also agree that the TOS should be updated, if people's (legal) behaviour is wrecking Amigaworld.net . But I'm not yet convinced that there IS a big problem, so certainly it should be taken as a last resort. Just look what happened to ANN.lu when they made a big change to stop the trolls...

Oh, and if BBRV aren't violating the TOS on the Amiga Too thread, but keep pushing the thread towards unpleasant arguments, then either that should be covered by the TOS (which is tricky since it's very subjective), or the moderator's should just be patient until BBRV *do* hang themselves with their own words (it can't be long to wait).

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@falemagn

Done that

@koksa

Quote:

No, I am not that stupid. I wanted just to show thread an example of Mike_C technique: entering a pacific thread to destroy it. They have trained a lot on other sites, you know.

You're playing with fire here... some moderators can not be questioned

_________________
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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Mikey_C

Quote:

EDIT: In short: Amigaworld: Pro Amiga or Not?

Pro Amiga. But not to unreasonable extents.

Was the announcement of Genesi's "sublaptop" an Anti-Amiga event? I didn't think so, but it got moderated that way, and some other Amiga fans felt it was unacceptable. I'm still not sure why.

I think level-headed discussion should be allowed, even when itleans in the direction of Genesi or MorphOS. They've done certain things well, Amiga Inc has made certain mistakes, and vice-versa. Regardless of what side of the chasm you live on, it's foolish to pretend the bad things on your side or the good things on the other side don't exist, and you shouldn't ignore these as knowing such things can help improve your own situation.

What hardware ideas have worked for whome, and what can we learn from that? What business policies have worked and which have not done so well, and what can we learn from that? I'm not saying anything about "Peg2 is good, everyone should buy that and stop developing competing hardware because only Genesi is capable of that" or other such rediculous nonsense. I'm more concerned with good and bad politics, how they help or hinder our small market, hardware concepts and markets and where we might fit in with certain industries, and which industries we fit with better than others.

A number of people feel the AmigaOne is a failure, and some seem to think that Eyetech is thus incompetent and unable to ever make anything good happen. The availability of AmigaOnes tends to speak toward the success level of that product, but I don't think Eyetech are incompetent. You don't need to be a systems design engineer in order to bring new products to market. They could contract out the implementation of another design, using a less controversial northbridge, and end up with a great result, and find success with it. And there's nothing wrong with that. Does bbrv design Genesi's products, or is that farmed out to their friends at bplan? It's just not a bad business model to contract out these things to those with the expertise, even if a lot of comments I've seen seem to indicate it's a bad idea.

I don't think that running OS4 on Peg2 is a flawed concept or bad idea. But nagging and nagging and nagging to have it done after being told "no" so many times is unproductive and annoying. bbrv going on and on about how interested they are, yet at the same time saying they are unwilling to invest in this "interest" of theirs as there is no financial benefit in it, is stupid. There's little level-headed discussion available in such topics as it all burned out years ago, and I don't think reason can return to it until some degree of professionalism is present in the articles posted about it. And I think that is lacking in bbrv's recent blog linked to in another thread. But if they posted reasonable things on AW.net, I wouldn't consider that unwelcome. Same for MorphOS users.

The problem is that the "fundamentalists", on BOTH sides, seem to enjoy fishing for flamewars, and give the moderators here and on other sites a lot of headaches. While I'd like to see AW.net remain more of an Amiga site, I don't welcome posts which unreasonably flame those on the other side of the chasm. We shoudlnt' stick our heads in the sand and ignore what's going on elsewhere. Nor should we make it mandatory to be unpleasant to MOS or Peg users for no other reason that they use MOS or Peg. That said, those MOS/Peg users shouldn't come here to unreasonably pester OS4 or AmigaOne users. Reasonable discussions should be allowed, as should facts and reasonable comments from either side. "Other-siders" should not be banned just because of what side they're on. Neither side should go on and on and on about items already beaten to death, where no new discussion is really possible. Neither Genesi nor Hyperion/Amiga are willing to make OS4 for Peg2, so there's really no point in continuing that topic, as one example. If Genesi changes their mind, or Hyperion does, and there's something new to say, great. But until there's actually any new stuff to say, dead topics are best left dead, and neither side should keep trying to raise the zombies over and over again just to keep the flamewars burning.

And I think this should go for all sites, not just AW.net. But unfortunately it's human nature to meddle, to pick fights, and to be unreasonable, and moderators will always have an unenviable job to attempt to keep the peace.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

I like MOS users, and I even like the platform, I think it's great. It so happens I prefer the AOS route when the community divided many years ago. I am not sure why we should oust the MOS side of things, this is AmigaWORLD not AmigaCountry.

Let them in, hell, give them their own dedicated forum. Its all good fun!

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

@ChrisH

Quote:

I like the idea of a "War forum",

I think that would just encourage bad things.

Quote:

look what happened to ANN.lu when they made a big change

IMHO Ann had already suffered damaged credibility before the site registration became compulsory. It became a breeding ground for petty squabbles.

_________________
Sam

Mikey - I don't think you are doing yourself any favours.

As you know I slated bbrv for his offer to Hyperion, but at the same time some of us have tried to keep things on topic.

With this thread you created, you've broadened it into Red vs. Blue, pro- and anti- Amiga, the purpose of AmigaWorld.... it's a bloody troll's wonderland.

Why couldn't you just make everyone to keep their comments in the one thread and away from the rest of AmigaWorld, try not to escalate the argument or piss off Blue trolls, and let things die down? Personally, I think you're just making things worse.

Chris

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

Everyone, and I mean everyone, wants to see a bright future for the Amiga platform. Let's not lose sight of this. They just express it in different ways and want their views respected.

Indeed...

Thumbs up for the insightful post...

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@hatschi

Quote:

Why? 90% of the thread was really interesting, without any flaming and with civil discussion.

my personal gripe about that thread was the first two posts by bbrv was actually just a link to his blog that is not moderated. if he wants to post then post don't start a thread with a link and no substance. to me it seemed he was just generating hits on his site nothing more.

yes the majority of the posts were interesting and i have no problem with the content but bbrv's post really hit a raw nerve (especially since that was one of the reasons billsey was kicked)

despite that i am not sure that even i would moderate his post since some people do tend to do these things when the article is self explanatory. especially when a warning would suffice.

Last edited by jkirk on 03-Jan-2006 at 08:11 PM.

_________________
Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

This is actually an interesting thread. Maybe not the thread itself, but the fact that one of the long time amigaworld members felt the need to bring it up, and that a lot of people agreed with the first posts.

Like many of you I came to aw when the bs got a bit overwhelming at amiga.org and the likes. Amigaworld was like a safe haven for those who wanted to talk about the AMIGA's future and not one of the spinoffs, or listen to the same old arguments over and over again.

Like I've already pointed out about a year ago, amigaworld have had a steady heading to the same inevitable faith as the others had. And hatschi, it's not about the threads like you mention, not at all. Like ssolie already pointed out it's about the constant bickering every 10 seconds. As soon as something good about A1/OS4 comes up, you can bet your grandma's sweet potato pie that there's someone there to bitch about it. Always the same nicknames, as already pointed out I'm willing to bet that 90% of some ppl's posts are pure "Anti Amiga posts". And please don't take my word for it, browse the forums for yourself. If this is an Amiga forum - why are You here?!! (no, not you you, the 90% anti guys )


About a year ago I had to take a break. It was probably after one of my run in's with falemagn. Some of my friends agreed with me that aw was becoming a hostile environment so we started our own local forum. I've posted about 7000 posts/pm's in the first year and a half, with 230 members this became our new oasis. Then I realized that why the heck should I leave aw?! I like Amigaworld, heck I Love AmigaWorld! So please, if we're going to set our foot down it has to be now.

It's quite obvious that aw.net is now being used by bbrv in yet another PR stunt. Just read the blogs, it sounds all grand and the peg is being discussed at osnews, amigaworld, ... But if you actually sit down and read the posts you don't really get that warm fuzzy feeling they want you to have, do you?
And everytime there's the fan-squad to defend every word they say. And funny enough they always begin their sentences with "I'm not a bbrv fanboy - but, ..."

Personally I don't mind the pegasos, it's probably a cool piece of hardware. I don't even mind morphos. It's the constant Anti-Amiga FUD and crap that some members of that community keeps throwing my way, over and over again. And now they're in my back yard bitching.

And regarding bbrv. The knife... It still hurts.

But again, if company X licenses the peg design, labels it 'AmigaNG' or whatever, led or no led, that's all good. More hardware for OS4 and more developers for OS4. That's two big arguments to lick those wounds.


Sorry for getting a bit OT there at the end, but it's still the same discussion I guess. I just wonder how long we have to think about it. For me, it's up to 'them'. Stop picking at every little Amiga-argument you see, and we might just get along. But this statement has to be made. And it has to be clear.


/shoe
--www.amigbg.com (heads up..)

(edit, spelling as usual)

Last edited by shoe on 03-Jan-2006 at 08:37 PM.

i want aw to be classic amiga/amiga os4 pro site.... thats why i joined in the first place... so i hope it will stay as a true amiga site in the future also... we have enough of there mixed news sites out there...

_________________
I was a ZX Spectrum owner....

@-Sam- who said Quote:

Quote: I like the idea of a "War forum", I think that would just encourage bad things.

The experience of a French site apparently shows just the opposite! And just think about it:

Since the "War forum" (which I guess is a bad translation, and should probably be termed "Argument forum") will not show on the front page, only those really interested in it will seek it out. They can vent their frustration there, along with others similarly willing to accept higher level of confrontation. The TOS would still apply, but not be as carefully applied (as the moderators would visit there less & be a little more lenient in any case).

This would be an improvement over the "Free For All" section, because threads would not START there. They would only be moved there if necessary. The people involved would still know about the thread, and could keep visiting it if they wanted. But it would no-longer be waved in front of everyone's face, where it would be likely to carry on until it got frozen.

Any thread over 10 pages should definitely get moved off the front page.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@ChrisH

Yes, i think this is the best solution.

Thanks balis.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@Dirk-B

I don't see the need myself - we're talking about 1 or 2 threads at most, even if they are long. No need to encourage flamewars...

@shoe

Well said, Stefan

_________________
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A4000 CS PPC 604e@233mhz '060@50mhz
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A1200 '030@50mhz
A500+ '030@40mhz

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

BigBentheAussie wrote: I'm probably going to say something that'll make me unpopular, ... So now that I have dissed practically everyone...... Everyone, and I mean everyone, wants to see a bright future for the Amiga platform. Let's not lose sight of this. They just express it in different ways and want their views respected.

Well said, I know my previous post was kind of emotional, but it's so hard to forget. I don't even remember the exact reasons or comments but I really truly hated bbrv back then. Them and everything they stood for.

All I remember is the post on moo or where ever where they wrote that they only sued Amiga Inc to put the final nail in their coffin. And then they claimed the rights for OS4?! It was just to much.

But like I said, if this (OS4 on peg2) could unite the community and "bring back" the ones that left (to mos). So be it. I'd be willing to forget. I guess

(unless falemagn or someone else posts a reply to my last post and piss me off again. Cos then I'll be back in my corner pouting )


/shoe
--www.amigbg.com (heads up..)

@Mikey_C

Yes I remember, I hope it focus don't change, MorphOS is not what I'm interested in, talk about MorphOS some where else, anyway I think in few years time no one is going talk about MorphOS if OS4 is ported to current Pegasus, if ported some other Pegasus then I don't know.

when the forum turn in to personal attacks, and forum about politics and not about computers then the forum is out of control, and has lost it's focus.

MorphOS user can read the forum if they like to, OS4 users can read MorphZone if they like, if most post on off-topic stuff do that on ANN.LU they love it over there.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2006 at 08:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jan-2006 at 08:33 PM.

_________________
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@ChrisH

Quote:

I don't have time to read this entire thread (sorry!), but I think it's right that Amigaworld.net remain OS4 *focused*, but that should not exclude related news & discussions. And trolls should still be kept on a tight leash (if not actually banned for repeated offences).

Agreed. I am an AmigaOne owner, and AmigaOS4 user. I have no qualm with Morphos or the Pegasos hardware, and for those who choose to use it. It is another alternative operating system in a sea of Microlinuxapple$oft.

@all
This is Amigaworld.net. AmigaOS4 has long been promoted here, and many members of this site came here to escape some of the trollishness (word?) of other forums. This is what I'd like some of the vocal Morphos advocates to remember. This is not intended to be negative. If anything, I'm just saying "bear in mind where you are". It's like saying a crude joke in front of your grand-mother... well, maybe not so bad...

_________________
After a decade away from the scene, I am back!

I can only agree. I came here because of all this dicussions getting started on other sites as soon as you mention A1 or OS4 in any of their threads. On AW it is possible to discuss OS4 related topics without getting an reply like "but XYZ can do it better" cr*p, or it was until now (in most cases).

I hope this will still be possible, but it is also noticeable, that AW is shifting in the other direction - pushed by a minority, I must add - which would be a real pitty. Keep it as it is and keep the spirit here.

_________________
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@shoe

Quote:

(unless falemagn or someone else posts a reply to my last post and piss me off again. Cos then I'll be back in my corner pouting )

Dude, you're so easily pissed off that I can't help but wonder if you ever thought that the problem might actually be in your own head?

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@billt:

Excellent post, couldn't agree more.

_________________
Robert
--
A1XE G4, OS4.1. Peg1 G3, MOS 1.4.
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