@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @BrianK Quote: I agree. Because in States with gay marriage, marriage isn't under threat. Absolute lie. Marriage has been lowered in a small splattering of U.S. States to include people of the same sex thereby giving no importance to the complimentary nature of the two sexes and further damaging the link between marriage, consummation and it being the best environment to bring up children. Next you'll be spouting feminist rubbish such as a belief that there is no difference between the two sexes The two sexes are complimentary and very important for parenting and raising the next generation to relate well to both men and women.

Marriage is under threat from divorce not gays, always has been. You refuse to take a firm stance on this, though many from the Bible quote your God as being against this.

And as for kids in gay 2 parent home.. Many families are not the most perfect, sure I agree with that. That a gay 2 parent home is noteably worse is not proven. And certainly look at Sweden and Denmark who have low rates of marriage yet poll as the happiest citizens. So people can do well and end up happy being raised with non traditional parents.

@Nimrod

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Or to put it another way, we have already dealt with this LIE. Marriage in this country is not under threat from the principle of homosexual equality.

Equality has already been granted through civil partnerships. You can continue to hammer home the lie that it hasn't but that doesn't change the fact that is has.

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The fall in marriage was occurring in Spain and the Netherlands anyway for reasons entirely unconnected with the homosexuals in either country.

So what do you do when marriage is struggling against being considered irrelevant? Oh yeah put the last nails in the coffin by destroying it special position as the best relationship to bring up children, set apart from all other relationships for that reason.

You're putting too much emphasis on the U.S. State stats. Those dubious rulings to legalise same-sex marriage will hopefully be overhauled in the next decade perferably before the marriage rate plummets.

It's a shame George W. Bush didn't manage to change the constitution to enshrine marriage as between one man and one women. He gets a lot of respect from me for trying.

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@BigD

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So basically your argument is that Hitler mentions God in his book so he must be a Christian?! You really are clutching at straws!

Wow, you took the delusional baton and just kept running didn't you?

Clutching at straws? Me?

You claim he was an atheist based on NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, then when I post out the massive amounts of evidence that he most certainly believed in a god, perhaps not the one that you claim to believe in (though he certainly used the same source material), I'm the one that's clutching?

An atheist wouldn't think the Spear of Destiny would give him god's protection. An atheist wouldn't talk about a divine mission, an atheist wouldn't fill his speeches and manifesto to the praising of god and it's followers.

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But a sick twisted atheist using religion for his own means seems the most probable explanation.

What? You mean like you?

You've displayed less Christian values in this thread than many an atheist, myself included. You twist the words of the Bible to suit yourself and your arguments and then you have the nerve to call another "sick" for doing the same?

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@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Thread Hopefully, we'll have one of these protests here. Maybe then you'll all understand the level of opposition to this redefinition; BBC News: Mass Paris Rally Against Same-Sex Marriage

Interestingly the article you link to contains the following Quote:

An opinion poll of almost 1,000 people published by Le Nouvel Observateur newspaper at the weekend suggested that 56% supported gay marriage, while 50% disapproved of gay adoption. The poll also said that 52% of those questioned disapproved of the Church's stand against the legislation. Earlier polls had indicated stronger support for the legalisation of gay marriage.

So we have 56% in favour of same gender marriage, and 52% disapproving of the opposition by religious groups. It doesn't matter how loud mouthed and obnoxious the minority is they are still not the majority Religion no longer gives its supporters a veto over democracy.

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@BigD

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Equality has already been granted through civil partnerships You can continue to hammer home the lie that it hasn't but that doesn't change the fact that is has.

I will once again quote the comment by SpaceDruid
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So are you going to just keep doing this? You make a post, somebody proves it to be nonsensical, you pretend the post didn't happen and make no reference to it (presumably because you have no answer for it). Then you repeat the claim,

I have already cited two important differences between the rights of a spouse on the death of their "other half" and tose of a civil partner. I have also pointed out that when a woman gets married and chooses to use her husbands surname the presentation of a marriage certificate is sufficient to change the name on driving licence, passport, bank account etc. this is not the case with civil partners who have to go to the inconvenience and expense of using deed poll name change.
This proves that the two situations are not equal in law so you can keep trying to hammer home the lie that they are but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't.
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So what do you do when marriage is struggling against being considered irrelevant?

It appears that in true christian tradition you blame somebody else for your own failings and persecute them as a scapegoat. It is what you have been doing to the Jews for the last two thousand years.

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It's a shame George W. Bush didn't manage to change the constitution to enshrine marriage as between one man and one women. He gets a lot of respect from me for trying.

So, on the assumption that he been successful, should Americans just shoot people for the evil and unconstitutional crime of adultery, and how popular would this be among the Morons in Utah.

Edit: I also note that you cite male singular but female plural marriage between man and women. Is this to appease Mitt Romney &Co ?

Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 03:31 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 03:30 PM.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

I have already cited two important differences between the rights of a spouse on the death of their "other half" and tose of a civil partner. I have also pointed out that when a woman gets married and chooses to use her husbands surname the presentation of a marriage certificate is sufficient to change the name on driving licence, passport, bank account etc. this is not the case with civil partners who have to go to the inconvenience and expense of using deed poll name change.

Wow administration faff, is that the best you could come up with? How does that compare with Lillian Ladele and thousands more like her losing their jobs if the definition of marriage is redefined

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@BigD

Quote:

Wow administration faff, is that the best you could come up with? How does that compare with Lillian Ladele and thousands more like her losing their jobs if the definition of marriage is redefined

Oh look, another attempt to muddy the waters to avoid the issue.

Lillian Ladele refused to conduct Civil Partnerships, not marriages. Legalising same sex marriages would have ZERO effect on her and others of the same mindset.

(And where do you get "thousands" from? What is the source for these numbers?)

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 19-Jan-2013 at 03:41 PM.

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@SpaceDruid

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Lillian Ladele refused to conduct Civil Partnerships, not marriages. Legalising same sex marriages would have ZERO effect on her and others of the same mindset.

That's why I used the wording "thousands MORE"! Don't you think they'll be all manner of public sector workers that will fall foul of the new legislation if you get you way. Pain, misery and people losing their jobs that is what you are advocating and it's sick. Equality has already been achieved and all you want to do is persecute people that disagree with your world view that's all there is to it. Common sense, reasonable accommodation and all these good elements of our society will be thrown out the window as they were with Lillian Ladele to feed you idea of 'equality' which in reality plays out as repression and one step closer to authoritarianism.

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@BigD

Ah yes, now the attempt at fear making. If you can't win of facts, make some crazy fiction, right?

First same sex marriage would bring the end of civilisation, now you've reigned it back a bit to less apocalyptic proportions but still retained the fear element.

It's not surprising you fear so much when your understanding of the world is so limited. I suggested before you learn more about science. It would help you get some kind of perspective in your life. I know you've lived for a long while with hell and damnation, eternal torment and a vindictive god overlooking your every thought and action. The world must really be a scary place for you.

Nothing about what you've just posted makes the slightest bit of sense. Equality most certainly hasn't been reached, else your wife would earn the same as a male worker, women would be able to rise through the ranks of the Church of England and gay people wouldn't have people putting pipe bombs in their nightclubs.

The only persecution going on is yours over people that don't affect you in any way (unless you are gay). We've done all this already D. You know we have. You are just a stuck record.

If I was in a shop and said to a customer, "Sorry, I won't serve you because you are a Christian. I'll get somebody else to serve you". Do you think that would be acceptable? Of course you wouldn't and you'd be right to object because that would be illegal.

So why should it be acceptable for a gay person? The answer? It isn't. That's why the couple with the B&B were prosecuted and why the long running legal process in the European Courts did not find in favour of the two who were doing just that.

As long as you keep posting your lies and distortions, people here will keep correcting you. NOBODY is convinced by your claims. We never will be. Repeating them endlessly won't change that.

I'm aware a large part of any religion involves repetition. It's part of the mental process required to make you suggestible and therefore more likely to believe what you are being told.

That tactic doesn't work here. And it won't ever work because people will never be exposed to it for sufficient time for the effects to take. Instead, what we see are your lies and falsehoods exposed for what they are.

Edit: Oh and a correction. you said " will fall foul of the new legislation if you get you way."

I'm not gay so it's not my way. It has no effect on me, or you. This is a matter that only affects gay people and as such, they should be the only people to have any say on the matter.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 19-Jan-2013 at 04:21 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

Wow administration faff, is that the best you could come up with?

It doesn't matter how trivial you try to pretend the difference is, the simple fact remains that there is a difference, both at the beginning, and at the end of a lifelong relationship. At the times when a person is at their most emotionally charged, or at their most emotionally fragile, mindless and moronic bureaucracy impedes the smooth transition at the behest of a minority group whose sole reason for existence seems to be to amplify the distress for any but their own favoured and privileged friends. You keep ranting about "Liberal elites" but the only elitism on display is from the religious camp, who seek to impose their own mediaeval 'philosophy' on the rest of the world. And then expect the rest of the world to be grateful for being so graciously victimised.

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How does that compare with Lillian Ladele and thousands more like her losing their jobs if the definition of marriage is redefined

Just because a lazy self opinionated individual chooses to wave the religion card, it does not give them a divine right to ignore the law. She was paid to do a job and she refused to carry out the full and complete duties involved in that job. When the race relations act was passed, people who continued using derogatory terms for non-whites were arrested tried and convicted even if they did think that they were immune from prosecution. Landlords were also no longer permitted to exclude people from renting accomodation because of the colour of their skin. Just as your kind of person complained about restrictions to their liberty introduced by the race relations act, now you repeat the same bile and lies about granting equality to a section of the population who would have been jailed for admitting their predilection not so long ago. Ladele did not lose her job because she was of a particular religion, she refused to do the job she was paid to do. If she wants to perform marriages in a setting where only religious people are going to get married, I suggest that she try to become an ordained catholic priest. (Oops, I forgot, females are second class and not permitted to officiate as they have to remain silent in church)

The only reason that 'thousands of jobs' will be at risk is if thousands of people break the law. There is no law that guarantees the right of anybody to remain employed if they are unwilling to do the job that they are being paid to do.

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@BigD

Quote:

Equality has already been achieved and all you want to do is persecute people that disagree with your world view that's all there is to it.

In post #1862 you claimed "Equality has already been granted through civil partnerships.".
In post #1865 I stated that you were wrong and pointed out some differences.
You sought to belittle the facts in post#1866 and claimed that the right of Ladele to discriminate was more important than the right of her employer to expect her to do the job she was being well paid to perform. When SpaceDruid picked you up on Ladeles refusal to do a fair days work for a fair days pay, you repeated the lie that equality has been achived.
It took less than an hour for you to switch off your conscience (assuming you ever had one in the first place) and start knowingly and wilfully lying.

Did you honestly think you could pull the wool over our eyes so easily? You must really think that you have your personal deity under your thumb if you feel that he will have no choice but to forgive you for that level of arrogance.

Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 04:41 PM.

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@BigD

BigD wrote:

Quote:

That's why I used the wording "thousands MORE"! Don't you think they'll be all manner of public sector workers that will fall foul of the new legislation if you get you way. Pain, misery and people losing their jobs that is what you are advocating and it's sick. Equality has already been achieved and all you want to do is persecute people that disagree with your world view that's all there is to it. Common sense, reasonable accommodation and all these good elements of our society will be thrown out the window as they were with Lillian Ladele to feed you idea of 'equality' which in reality plays out as repression and one step closer to authoritarianism.

Chill Enoch otherwise your going to burst a blood vessel.

You have gone into full fearmongering mode considering you have no credible evidence to back any of your claims up. Your no better than the people that wonder around town centers with the "world will end" banners strapped to their chests and spouting anti everything propaganda.

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

I suggested before you learn more about science. It would help you get some kind of perspective in your life. I know you've lived for a long while with hell and damnation, eternal torment and a vindictive god overlooking your every thought and action. The world must really be a scary place for you.

I've got a degree in Geology and an avid interest in science, so you point was?

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@CritAnime

Persecuted Christians have been in the news this week at the European Court so the fears are valid and the situation is highly likely to get worse if this ill thought out legislation is passed!

Read all about it here if you don't believe me;

Mail Online: Judges' respect for the crucifix is paper-thin

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@BigD

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I've got a degree in Geology and an avid interest in science, so you point was?

You really want to dig this hole again?

I'll remind viewers that you tried to argue about the age of the Earth based on the ocean floor which any high school student paying attention in class would know was the youngest rock on the planet. And your complete and utter failure to understand the scientific process or basic terminology which you would HAVE to have understood to have passed any examination process would indicate that the only way you would have a degree was if you bought one from a website which was also selling plots of land on the moon.

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@BigD

Quote:

I've got a degree in Geology and an avid interest in science, so you point was?

You may have purchased a geology degree from some online "college" and be interested in science, but you clearly have absolutely no understanding of the scientific principle. (or many other aspects of the word "principles") You have also blatantly discarded anything you may have learned about geology in favour of a few creationist fables that can be demonstrated to be entirely false.

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Persecuted Christians have been in the news this week at the European Court

The only thing you and yours know about persecution is how to dish it out. Once again the basis of the story is your belief that wearing a crucifix should give you and yours carte blanche to be as domineering and offensive as you wish with no thought to having to face any consequence, and then crying foul when the rest of the world do not submit to your every whim. The BA clerk won her case because the variation from the dress code was minor and caused no risk to herself or others. The nurse however was in a different situation. Do you have any idea how much effort the NHS has had to make to reduce the number of people who die each year of hospital acquired infections? How would you feel if somebody close to you died as a result of cross contamination. (pun intended) Do you really think that her right to wear a piece of personal adornment outweighs a patients right to get better?

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@BigD

Christian fired because she was the wrong kind of Christian. Ladele didn't do her job. This girl simply didn't believe in the right version of the Christianity.

Atheist indoctrination

Last edited by BrianK on 19-Jan-2013 at 07:50 PM.

@SpaceDruid

So have you studied science for three years at university yourself then? I am in a better position to comment on science and the Christian faith than you since I both have a science degree and am a Christian, two things you 'aint.

Back to the subject;
Looks like MPs are getting upset at being forced to engage in the democratic process on this issue

This is Cornwall: MP Sarah Newton gets hot under the collar because she has to answer to her constituents

Since when has defending marriage been offensive. Sarah Newton needs to wake up and listen to her constituents not some woolly Right Revd Whatisname adviser (I have my doubts about whether woolly Liberal Bishops are actually 'saved' Christians themselves). Since the best weapon you anti-marriage campaigners have is wayward backslidden Christians like him, the Quakers and the United Reformed Church.

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@BigD

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Back to the subject; Looks like MPs are getting upset at being forced to engage in the democratic process on this issue

I love the way that you call it "undemocratic" when your pressure group cannot push the 99% of the country who didn't sign your sorry pack of lies petition to surrender all thought processes and return to the dark ages.
The reason for this is that you have no concept of the democratic principle, just as you have no understanding of the scientific principle. Mainly because you have no principles.

The problem was that C4M chose to use pictures that they had no authorisation to use, to lend a false veneer of respectability to their campaign of misdirections, misrepresentations, and downright lies. This does not surprise me as it matches your own tendency to lie at every available opportunity.
From the article: Quote:

Truro and Falmouth MP Sarah Newton has submitted a formal complaint to the campaign group Coalition for Marriage over leaflets distributed in her constituency. This photo has been used without Mrs Newton's permission, and the MP said it gave the false impression that she was connected with the campaign.

. Let me give you a hint. You do not advance the cause of truth by telling lies.

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Since when has defending marriage been offensive.

and since when has the concept of accepting that homosexuals should be allowed to be treated as equals been a threat to marriage. Most marriages that fail do so as a result of heterosexual infidelity. Neither I nor my wife have any interest in partaking in homosexual activity, so homosexuals are no threat to our marriage, so what is it that you have to fear?

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(I have my doubts about whether woolly Liberal Bishops are actually 'saved' Christians themselves)

Just out of curiousity, is there anybody that you think is a real christian, apart from yourself that is? I have this mental image of you, in the afterlife, going up to יהוה and telling him to get his wooly liberal butt out of your chair, because he is not a true "born again" christian.

Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 11:28 PM.
Last edited by Nimrod on 19-Jan-2013 at 11:20 PM.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

Just out of curiousity, is there anybody that you think is a real christian, apart from yourself that is? I have this mental image of you, in the afterlife, going up to יהוה and telling him to get his wooly liberal butt out of your chair, because he is not a true "born again" christian.

I'm sorry but someone that sits in their big roomy cathedral taking a salary and pension off the state church while at the same time advising people that the Bible is compatible with redefining marriage is taking liberties with their faith if they ever were actually a Christian in the first place. Loads of vicars in the 17th century went into the priesthood just for a career rather than because they actually believed the Bible so I guess we've just returned to the dark days of the 17th Century.

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