@Cod3r

I don't know if this has been asked or not, but... what is the possibility that, after your hardware is released, someone could put AROS on it it? Is it a difficult proposition? Just wondering... maybe your project might be useful to the community after the fact.

Ed.

@amigadave

Quote:

There may not be many non-Amiga users who find the few Amiga inspired "Next Gen" platforms interesting, but there are a few current Amiga Next Gen users who have zero previous Amiga experience.

I would be one of those. Before I started working on AROS m68k, I had almost no experience with Amigas, other than an A1000 landing in my lap two years before when a friend of mine was clearing out his closet and not knowing what to do with it.

@xe54

Quote:

Hardware for the new breed of PPC amigas is not causing the same level of excitement and creativity.

That's the way I see it too...

To me it seems like from most posts that for some folk it's all about having an Amiga looking OS that runs on off the shelf parts PC parts and running software that is already run on PC & Macs...

If it's really so important for some people to have an Amiga like system that can easily handle/ run on different CPU's, GPU's, modern hardware etc... then I suppose what CUSA have been doing means this has already been achieved...

While I personally don't really see the point nor the need for the Amiga to basically become just like every other PC/ Mac system these days and just to run the same software they do, I do often wonder with all the years things like OS4, AROS & MorphOS have been in development and the never ending wish lists often posted by people...

Then why not just go the quick and dirty route like CUSA have done make an Amiga looking skin round a Linux/ Minx (or whatever) distro and then the wish list is almost complete...

I never thought I'd ever say this but to me it now seems CUSA did in fact get it right for a lot of folks whom basically want nothing more than the ability to use modern up to date hardware to run PC/ Mac ports on. All done on an OS (maybe that should be skin) that does nothing more than run such stuff but hidden under an Amiga looking skin to somehow give them that feeling their using an Amiga...

Personally though I'm just happy there are still people out their like Jens producing real hardware for the the Amiga and keeping that spirit of creativity and ingenuity going that has always been to me one of the most important thing about being an Amiga user...

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@KimmoK

I'm trying to be careful with what I say not to offend anyone, but that is how it appears...

If all could come together and toss our egos and differences aside, we could actually create something viable "for the masses", which what the original Commodore was all about.

For instance, look at ARM. It is a spec, made by many different manufactures. Royalty-free. Biggest selling architecture on the planet.

Look back to Amiga. Amiga OS, MorphOS-Proprietary, closed source. Aros, the only open-source solution.

Makes no sense. The world's best selling architecture (outsells AMD/Intel almost 5-to-1 at this point) is a royalty-free spec, but the good old Amiga OS (and I do emphasize OLD) is more expensive than Micro$oft high-end desktop OS's at retail.

Kind of obvious to see why even a platform with the most fanatical followers will ultimately collapse.

Sure, we can compare to Lamborghini or Aston Martin, but those brands at least have the value to back up their prices. Amiga doesn't.

Imagine me selling you a brand-new luxury car at a price higher than a Bentley, but it doesn't have air conditioning, and the radio works sometimes (i.e. "it's still in development") and it runs with a motorcycle engine.

Sure, go ahead... sign me up!

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @Cod3r "Frankly, from an "outsiders" point of view, it seems that some parties thrive on the division within the community, and because it suits their agenda, they keep up the strive and conflict, for their own benefit and not the benefit of the platform." I agree fully!

@Cod3r

Quote:

It did nothing to improve anything. No wonder Atari stopped making computers...

MultiTOS (released in 1993) was was big step forward in comparison to previous versions of TOS (preemptive multitasking, updated UI etc.). One can´t judge that hard 19 years old OS.

Quote:

Maybe MiNT would be better, but I could not find a "load and go" solution anywhere on the net.

I have similar experience. However, there is link to current MiNT (SpareMiNT distribution):
http://sparemint.org/sparemint/download.html

Maybe Atari users could help you with installation (links to user forums):
http://www.atari-forum.com/
http://www.atariage.com/

Quote:

Other than the RAM, there probably isn't much difference between a 520ST and the 1040ST, right?

They are the same (1040ST has 1 MB RAM, 520 only 512 kB, FM letters after ST mean it has also integrated floppy drive and TV modulator - I have such 520STFM version).

@Cod3r

exactly this reasoning brought me so far as regarding aros only viable alternative as beeing free, open source and hardware agnostic.

@xe54

I can't respond in depth right now, but I must say that you sir, sound like you have a clue.

I must assume that you are some kind of organizer or planner for some project. If not, you should.

And if you are not a developer or engineer, doesn't mean that you can't help out. After all, some technical people are brilliant in their field, but don't have the slightest common sense to apply to real-world ideas. But your responses prove that you do.

My brother-in-law is a prime example. The guy is an acclaimed engineer and entrepreneur, but he can barely operate an iPhone or a DVR. He could design both, though...

Us technical guys (and girls) need to be supplemented with non-technical "real folks" to bring Amiga to a new era. I am the first to admit that.

All of your ideas sound really solid. Really. Just pure common sense.

And before anyone attacks me, i'm not saying throw away anything uniquely Amiga. I think that 68k should be supported for eternity. Just not natively.

And I know that many of you hate the idea of emulators, but let me tell you-An emulator doesn't have to be some hacky software program that runs on another, unrelated operating system. It can be transparent.

I am in contact with some Amigans and hopefully we can bring something together that demonstrates what I mean, in a tangible way. I can't really say what will become of it until everyone puts our heads together.

Quote:

xe54 wrote: @Cod3r Quote: Cod3r wrote: Creativity can go a long way. Remember, price doesn't make something valuable. But value can make something priceless. Beautiful! The world needs reminding of how fast computers used to be ;) Personally, I would love to see AROS come on in leaps and bounds - shaped by the ideas, vision and creativity of all of the active community. As it stands it is a good basis for development but IMHO is trying it's hardest to be AmigaOS4 - whereas it could really carve out any path for its future development. So long as the development tries to maintain the Amiga ethos of speed and simplicity, I believe people will be interested in it. I believe integration of software, globally accessible abstractions of system APIs and strong networking capabilities would set a good baseline on which to hang new developments. By this I mean that for a system to be useful, it must come set up in a way to handle all the media formats that computers users store - from viewing PDFs to Movie files, and have this neatly tied into the UI - traditionally via the double click (though I personally prefer KDE style single click ;). The strong datatypes API is a great way for this to be advanced - especially with the introduction of Reggae style streaming datatypes for drip-fed data such as MP4 and internet radio. The abstraction of the system APIs was another strong point with the original OS, with handlers for almost all file operations and a fancy Rexx based script based metalanguage for accessing this underlying framework! In newer versions of OS4, they now have python as well as Arexx, which automatically increases the value of the system exponentially - especially to those in the embedded / kiosk markets. It would be great to be able to use python on Aros to control devices and systems, but I would be happy with any of the open source scripting languages - perhaps even something entirely different that would allow deep level access to the video display along with hardware controlling - similar to Processing perhaps? This would allow the machine to be crafted into very specific needs with very little overhead - from controlling the realtime visuals and lights at a gig, all in time to music - to developing video games with innovative controllers. Augmenting the home and hackers market seems to be the next big thing with devices such as the PI and Arduino becoming incredibly popular. Low cost - high creativity. My belief is that these systems are a blank canvas on which to create whatever you so wish. This creativity angle is lacking from modern Apple devices for example. One of the greatest strengths of the Amiga was that it was always sold as a tool to achieve creativity - and not just because of software - crazy hardware was ripe - from digitisers, samplers and MIDI ports to 3D renderfarms, scalable live TV output and genlocks. Hardware for the new breed of PPC amigas is not causing the same level of excitement and creativity. I mentioned networking before but I do believe that is one of the most important areas to ensure perfection first. A small footprint, network capable OS would definitely interest a community outside of the Amiga, especially if it could be deployed as a low weight server. Finally, I admire that you are helping the community to create a specification, a target, a dream that is tangible, a roadmap, a path, a direction ... That would be a great step in the right direction towards unity. It frustrates me watching slow development, with no clues as to progress, no ideas on time scales, no discussion about future plans, unfinished software and hardware being sold at top prices, in-fighting over the market share, devs replicating work for multiple platforms, lack of dedicated documentation and most of all, the politics! Amiga INC have made it practically impossible to follow that legacy, but there aint no reason that we can't take the initiative and make a platform we always dreamed of :) The great Trevor Dick stepped up the plate where no one else could and I am so happy that the team managed to put together a great computer with relatively modern software. In my opinion the AmigaOneX1000 is the machine that should have been released by ESCOM in the late 1990s! Politics kept it delayed! For the Classic Amiga fan, nothing can touch it. Dedicated hardware and software. The future beyond OS4 is of course open for discussion :) I believe that future to be based around shared source code, openness and mission based team work. Most probably based upon the decade of work started by the AROS teams ;)

@NutsAboutAmiga

I am going to make this statement with as much care and responsibility as possible, and I DO NOT want to offend the creators of the AmigaOne X1000, as I know how much in time and financial expense it has taken to complete such an endeavor.

I've seen the invoices for PCBs at my job, and let me say that the smallest run of custom motherboards can easily cost six figures.

BUT...

Subtract half of the performance of the AmigaOne X1000 CPU instantly. Why? The OS doesn't support it. And GHz are relative measures of speed. The efficiency of the instruction set, cache coherency and die pipeline all factors in true CPU speed.

For example, Pentium 4's were clocked up to 3.4 ghz IIRC, but P4's were slower that Pentium 3 Coppermine CPU's. A 1 GHz Pentium III Coppermine would eat a 2 GHz P4 for breakfast.

Of course, the Xena has untapped capabilities, but there is only so much a co-processor that works like it actually does can do. Obviously, it was added to give the system more value, but obviously its full potential hasn't been tapped just yet.

Once the CPU is fully supported by the OS, then and only then can we talk about its relative performance.

I find it shameful that such a machine (regardless of its "real world" potential) isn't supported fully by the OS. One should not have to run Linux to get a taste of of what an Amiga can do.

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @xe54 Quote: In my opinion the AmigaOneX1000 is the machine that should have been released by ESCOM in the late 1990s! Politics kept it delayed! in 1995/96 is was 50-90Mhz Pentiums, by the end of 1999 is was around 200 to 300Mhz Pentium II, the X1000 is way faster 1.8Ghz dual core, at start of 2000 is was around 800mhz, I think the specifications was pretty common around 2004, so if it was released in 1995 just imagine the impact. If Commodore did not make some of the mistakes like AGA chipset and the ZorroIII bus, back in 1992 and instead gone for S3 Virge and PCI, they might have been on level whit the first power mac’s around 1994, instead of going bankrupt.

@EDanaII

I already did Aros-the 68k version. I can't show it because the hardware is my employers design, not my own, and they are against the idea of using a non-OSI approved license.

Long story, but here's the short version:

My employers doesn't want me showing or running software with a license not approved by our legal department on their hardware.

I don't really understand more than that. I wish I did.

Quote:

EDanaII wrote: @Cod3r I don't know if this has been asked or not, but... what is the possibility that, after your hardware is released, someone could put AROS on it it? Is it a difficult proposition? Just wondering... maybe your project might be useful to the community after the fact. Ed.

@Cod3r

Quote:

He then asked, "What license is the source code available under? GPL? BSD?" I then told him that part of the FPGA code was GPL, while Aros was APL. He said, "Affero or Apache Public License?", I replied that Aros was a custom license. He then replied, "Unfortunately, I cannot allow you to display our hardware running ANY code that isn't licensed under an OSI recognized license, for legal reasons."

Who can submit Aros license to OSI for approval consideration? Have they done it, or can we encourage them to do so? If the license gets approved by OSI, then it would seem that Mr. president's concerns go away. That may not be the end of the problems, but could pass one hurdle to see what might be on the other side.

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@Franko

My friend, skinning a Linux is the cheap, dirty and easy way to "make" an OS. Not to offend Commodore USA, because i'm sure it was added to create some value for its customers, but a "skinned" Linux isn't a "new OS" by any stretch of the definition.

Let me get together with a few other like-minded people and i'll show everyone exactly what I mean.

Quote:

Franko wrote: @xe54 Quote: Hardware for the new breed of PPC amigas is not causing the same level of excitement and creativity. That's the way I see it too... To me it seems like from most posts that for some folk it's all about having an Amiga looking OS that runs on off the shelf parts PC parts and running software that is already run on PC & Macs... If it's really so important for some people to have an Amiga like system that can easily handle/ run on different CPU's, GPU's, modern hardware etc... then I suppose what CUSA have been doing means this has already been achieved... While I personally don't really see the point nor the need for the Amiga to basically become just like every other PC/ Mac system these days and just to run the same software they do, I do often wonder with all the years things like OS4, AROS & MorphOS have been in development and the never ending wish lists often posted by people... Then why not just go the quick and dirty route like CUSA have done make an Amiga looking skin round a Linux/ Minx (or whatever) distro and then the wish list is almost complete... I never thought I'd ever say this but to me it now seems CUSA did in fact get it right for a lot of folks whom basically want nothing more than the ability to use modern up to date hardware to run PC/ Mac ports on. All done on an OS (maybe that should be skin) that does nothing more than run such stuff but hidden under an Amiga looking skin to somehow give them that feeling their using an Amiga... Personally though I'm just happy there are still people out their like Jens producing real hardware for the the Amiga and keeping that spirit of creativity and ingenuity going that has always been to me one of the most important thing about being an Amiga user...

Last edited by Cod3r on 19-Jul-2012 at 04:12 PM.

@Cod3r

Quote:

They would REALLY have to ask everyone who ever contributed? If so, that's highly unlikely and improbable.

Indeed, improbable. But you can't just change license on something created by someone else, that's their code to decide on and no one else's. Unless the original license allows it (multi-licensed, or something like GPL 2 or later, or using a license that is GPL compatible, etc). And what if a contributor died since then? You still don't have right to change his code license, but who do you ask? If not explicitly stated in the will, who does the rights to that code transfer to, and how do we find that out to ask them?

The only answer to this problem is to remove and replace code that you either do not get an answer about or get a no answer about license change. And like you said, that could potentially be a huge undertaking. But if enough AROS contributors agree then perhaps the redo amount can be minimized to a reasonable amount. I'm not sure where the mentioned license discussion lives, I'm curious to see what exactly they are talking about.

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@Franko

Yes, I am very grateful that there is any hardware at all!

I remember when people were selling their original AmigaONEs for crazy money when the production ceased!

CUSA would have had more success if they replicated their C64 concept for the Amiga600. An exact replica but with x64 hardware inside and some extra ports on the back (certainly USB, audio jack, but perhaps a catweasel and some 9Pin Gamepads).

The software should be aimed at emulation, with a vast quantity of pre-installed amiga games and demos. AmigaForever uses the fantastic RP9 format which wraps up the emulator along with all the neccessary configuration for emulators to run and some useful information about the history of the file and images. A simple media-center style app could then let you use any of your old software alongside all of your current data.

Whether this interface was based on linux, windows or even AROS would not be that important as it would only serve at the intermediary level of connecting a selection with a source file.

This could be written in Hollywood even.

The price would have to be comparable to a low end laptop and definitely no more than the price of the original machine.

I would pay $190 for such a machine if it guaranteed me 100% compatibility, looked identical yet connects to my modern monitor as well as my TV.

Of course, this sounds very similar to the FPGArcade which they are aiming to retail at under $200 ;)

The benefit of a dedicated A600 clone, apart from the nostalgia, would be that it came complete as an Amiga Experience, with all the bits and pieces you need to get immediately going. Plug it into the wall and the TV, pick up your controllers and hit the on switch!

@Cod3r
Precisely my thinking.The community is small enough without it being further fractured.If people put their heads together and put aside egos a viable amiga system could be built.Their is certainly enough amiga passion and emotion in the community.Im very interested to see what you are planning and hope you can supply more info as to what your plans are later.

@Cod3r

Quote:

find it shameful that such a machine (regardless of its "real world" potential) isn't supported fully by the OS. One should not have to run Linux to get a taste of of what an Amiga can do.

Shameful is an awfully unfortunate choice in words unless you really think the members of the OS4 development team are deceitful or incompetent. I think they are neither -- just taxed for resources, namely money and manpower. The one resource they have plenty of is time, which is a good thing because without the other two things development does take a long time.

A better choice of words than shameful might have been unfortunate. One might say it is unfortunate that the software development is lagging behind the hardware in some key respects. Just my view -- I'm not wanting to put words into your mouth.

And you know what? I think it's nice we have some hardware we can grow into and that will challenge and enable development of new features in the software. Having it the other way around might be more frustrating.

But I'm not particularly frustrated either. I'm enjoying my next-generation AmigaOS machines (two Sam440-based computers and a new X1000) and frankly am having a ball with the newest one. I eagerly anticipate the developments to come and don't doubt that they are coming but also have my eyes open about how long these things take. Nothing shameful, nothing to be ashamed of. Everybody's working hard, many without compensation of any sort really.

Some people here think it's all lunacy, but it's great fun to me. I've been a fan of this operating system since 1985 and a user of it since 1987, which a few years off at the turn of the millennium when I had given it up for dead. Glad to find it kept gasping and has finally drawn a good, deep breath.

Good luck with your projects. I hope you find a way to contribute if it is your inclination to do so.

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@Cod3r

Thank you for the kind words.

I have been involved with many projects over the years in many capacities.

I trained as an industrial design engineer and over the years have worked on a variety of different products.

In 1999 I did some concept designs / renderings for Amiga Technologies. These were unique hardware solutions that catered specifically for creativity and connectivity in a range of different form factors. The most interesting design was a touch sensitive dual screened laptop with stylus, that allowed you to paint directly onto the screen.

It soon transpired that AT were shifting focus, from developing the next generation hardware to strictly developing software and in doing so warranted my work unnecessary.

I still have the renderings somewhere, would be fun to dig them out again. There were some truly interesting ideas - some of which remain original to this day!

Over time, I became disenfranchised with the world of industrial design as price demands were undercutting the quality and integrity of the products, and what was once a simple process became a daily money saving exercise. Some great ideas never left the drawing board due to prohibitive production costs.

About this time I was becoming more involved with coding, and with the proliferation of the internet, suddenly I had a viable platform to create 'products' with little overhead. The more I developed, the more I realised the potentials of this new movement.

I worked at many internet startups that blew up and changed the industry, often resulting in the company receiving excess amounts of cash - exactly the opposite of the industrial design world. This was a good feeling, that I would not have to make cuts to preserve the vision.

These days I am involved with various open source software and hardware projects, as well as running a couple of startups, sadly however, none are connected to the Amiga.

However, I still dabble in the world industrial design and occasionally produce concept designs for various companies. I have recently been playing around with a few ideas for what I envisage as the NG of Amiga computers, they all are based around the concept of distributed computing, and how expansion in the future could be radically different, whereby the connection of any hardware is shared by all hardware. The form factors of the hardware slot together like lego creating a constantly upgradable machine. Need more GPU? Add another graphics stack. Run out of hard drive space? Add another hard drive stack and it combines all the space into one disk. Need more horsepower? Add more CPU stacks. Machine to slow for your renderfarm? Stack another machine on top...

@xe54

When write this I put all my nostalgia and love for platform aside, and try be as objective as possibly as I can.
Quote:

but ZorroIII had many advantages over PCI at the time (autoconfig for one)

Autoconfig TM was revolutionary back in the late 80's, ISA was slow and bad, but PCI was faster then Zorro III, the buster chips did have many problems including buss mastering, I remember many of PCI cards came whit firmware that made is possible to boot of PCI Adaptec SCSI cards, or net boot from PCI network card, the on board EPROM or nvram on the PCI card might been possible flash whit AmigaOS drivers.
Quote:

I do not personally believe AGA was a mistake! The AAA probably was however.

AGA was mistake because it came whit only 2mb of Ram, while PCI graphic cards came whit 4mb back in the early 90's, AGA was also too slow, even whit all the custom chips, you can see it many of 3D games at the time, also many games came whit fewer colors, or fewer animations then the PC version of same games.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Jul-2012 at 06:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Jul-2012 at 06:09 PM.

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@ Cod3r

Sorry, Cod3r, but I think you misunderstood my question. :) I was asking if, after your product was released, would it be possible to for the community to do what you did. This might have value for all involved.

@ billt

Looks like the AROS Team is already on it.

Ed.

@Cod3r

First you need the hardware then you can write the drivers.
They have been kind holding it back, its called “First contact”, its basally and other word for early bird, development takes long because of man power, scale of economics, size of community.

the only reason to buy the AmigaONE-X1000 is AmigaOS4, AmigaONE-X1000 is the fastest AmigaOS4 compatible hardware you can get, single core or dual core, is worth some ones money that depends on how much you love AmigaOS4 I guess, love is not rational.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Jul-2012 at 06:31 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

AGA was mistake because it came whit only 2mb of Ram, while PCI graphic cards came whit 4mb back in the early 90's

Nonesense. PCI GFX cards were not common until 1996 (PCs with price range around 1250 USD). Most PCs in 1995 didn´t use more than 1 MB RAM on GFX card.

AGA was released in 1992. Sub 1000 USD computers had then only 2 MB RAM with 512 kB SVGA.

Quote:

AGA was also too slow, even whit all the custom chips, you can see it many of 3D games at the time, also many games came whit fewer colors, or fewer animations then the PC version of same games.

Speed of AGA is not problem in 320x200. Weakness of AGA is in absence of support for chunky GFX.

Interesting to note that with otimized Doom port (ADoom, DoomAttack) is my A1200 (Blizzard 1230IV 50 MHz) as fast as my 486SX (25 MHz, ISA VGA) in the Doom benchmark.

Quote:

also many games came whit fewer colors, or fewer animations then the PC version of same games.

Fewer colours: mostly OCS/ECS versions (and Dungeon Master 2 of course).
Fewer animations: HDD wasn´t standard setup of Amiga users even in 1992!