@IntuitionAmiga

Quote:

OS4 uses a brand new written from scratch kernel not based on the original Exec so by your twisted logic that makes OS4 not Amiga OS.

What do you mean "not based on the original Exec" ? What then is ExecSG based on? If it's not based on Exec or a clone of it then OS4 certainly isn't running on an Amiga kernel.

Quote:

You don't like GNU but keep confusing it with the Linux kernel for some reason.

GNU's Not Linux?

Last edited by Hypex on 25-Oct-2013 at 03:08 PM.

@Hypex

ExecSG is not based on anything it's written from scratch so according to DC_Edge's logic it makes OS4 a "general motor".

ExecSG at least implements original Exec APIs. So it's not really unrelated.

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@kernell needs

We should have memory protection, 64bit and SMP implemented to AOS4.
It would be nice to see a cost estimation what is needed to do those.
Then we could see how we could fund it during this decade.

@bloat

I know linux kernel does not directly mean bloated OS/system (I have Puppy linux etc on some HW).
But I do wonder how on some embedded device we need 2GB RAM to boot it up (linux based), while we 10+ years ago needed only 1MB (AmigaOS kind of RTOS) for the same.

(I believe it's because of largerOS, C++, all kinds of fast SW development tools that generate dead code etc.etc. No one cares about optimization when HW resources go up all the time.)

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@KimmoK: you can wonder the same about OS4: why does it require 64/128mb of ram while original amigaos could work with 512kb ?

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@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @kernell needs We should have memory protection, 64bit and SMP implemented to AOS4.

Stop there. This is the problem with AmigaOS/clones. Such things, beside 64bit since that is just a "size of your pointer" concern, are mutually exclusive with Exec's (and thus the rest of the system) core design principles.

So long as the OS is based on pointer-passing, SMP and MP will remain elusive. The only practical ways towards those features is to scrap the lot and implement something new. If you are lucky you might be able to write some tools to automate the source changes needed to modify your applications, but binary compatability will be impossible. Luckily there is UAE....

In summary this efficiency gain problem, which for years was AmigaOS's core strength and how it made usable multitasking in 512KB RAM, is now a massive hindrance.

But this is all like Apple developing OS X to follow OS 9, with only half a dozen programmers. Better to focus on things that have a hope of being finished, like better 3D, better webbrowsers, etc. Or just admit that AmigaOS will never be a modern OS, but that it has its place in history secure, which is what I've done.

Lawrence

Happy Amiga (500 and 1200) user 1989->1997, Previous SAM460/OS4.1 owner 2012. Now back to OS X, Linux and various 8 bit systems for profit and fun.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

But I do wonder how on some embedded device we need 2GB RAM to boot it up (linux based)

I was booting linux kernel (2.2.18), including BusyBox, simple web server, networking and ssh server on a 386EX embedded machine with 2.5MB of RAM and few megabytes of Flash. So, low memory footprint is feasible :)

@michalsc

I booted the QNX demo that come on the front of CUAmiga (iirc) so many years ago - full blown OS, initialising main x86 hardware components, with web browser and TCP/IP networking - all on a single 1.44MB (MSDos) floppy disk.
I don't know what it's minimum RAM requirements were, but not very much.

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@Boot_WB: QNX original demo required 4Mb of RAM iirc.

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@Aslak3

Quote:

So long as the OS is based on pointer-passing, SMP and MP will remain elusive.

one of the aros principles at least for its major developers afaik is sticking to messaging by pointer passing, yet there is an (open) attempt to achieve some sort of smp. how effective it will be remains to be seen. its a research os after all;)

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: @Boot_WB: QNX original demo required 4Mb of RAM iirc.

What a resource hog! And bloatware too, I'm sure they could have stripped it down to a 720Kb disk.

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@Aslak3

>... Now back to OS X, Linux and various 8 bit systems for profit and fun.

Good for you.

I did not find fun from Windows, OSX or Linux.

And as I do not see AOS4 catching up MOS, I would rather see it taking another direction, would be nice to have OS with amiga look+feel but with a few more modern "big" features.

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@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: one of the aros principles at least for its major developers afaik is sticking to messaging by pointer passing, yet there is an (open) attempt to achieve some sort of smp. how effective it will be remains to be seen. its a research os after all;)

Exactly. Working and effective are too different things. It might be you'd struggle to get a net performance gain, but it still "works". Some kind of "AMP" type setup, where "other" cores do specific things is probably doable. Real SMP... I dunno.

AROS has the best chance at all these new things though, that much is clear.

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @Aslak3 >... Now back to OS X, Linux and various 8 bit systems for profit and fun. Good for you. I did not find fun from Windows, OSX or Linux.

I'd *never* run a Windows desktop, that's for sure.

OS X = Nice pleasant environment, with a nice UNIX underneath.
Linux = Useful server OS. Used to use it for desktops but hated it.
8 bit = Fun hobby stuff.

It's a matter of necessity. I need to do online shopping (say). Painful as hell in AmigaOS, sadly. Over 15 years since using Amigas, I grow to like not having to reboot because a program crashed.

All sad truths. I *love* my 1200. It's the machine that got me started in real computing. But I was really dismayed to see how little Amiga had moved on, in the real important things, in the 15 year gap. I think the reason for this is obvious: the core OS decisions, which were awesome in 1985-1995, are now the Achilles heal of the whole system. And that's ok. People just need to stop dreaming about SMP, MP 64bit... They won't happen. Unless some Linux kernel gets something vaguely Amiga like built on top. But that won't be an Amiga, it'll just have a superficial resemblance.

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@Aslak3

Quote:

All sad truths. I *love* my 1200. It's the machine that got me started in real computing. But I was really dismayed to see how little Amiga had moved on, in the real important things, in the 15 year gap. I think the reason for this is obvious: the core OS decisions, which were awesome in 1985-1995, are now the Achilles heal of the whole system. And that's ok. People just need to stop dreaming about SMP, MP 64bit... They won't happen. Unless some Linux kernel gets something vaguely Amiga like built on top. But that won't be an Amiga, it'll just have a superficial resemblance.

Well, i didn't see os-x users complain about the fact that their new Mac OS was built on top of a unix kernel, since at the end was behaving like Mac OS...

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@Aslak3

Why do you think that the Amiga shared memory design precludes SMP?

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Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php

@Aslak3

i completely agree on everything you wrote. especially loving the old hardware (and associated system) for what it is (no more, no less).

just one thing:

Quote:

But I was really dismayed to see how little Amiga had moved on, in the real important things, in the 15 year gap.

i think its a little mistake to say or expect that amiga moved or not in the late 15 years...
if anything, then we can perhaps talk about "amigaos" or so. this is exactly what troubles me. because these are two different things that actually do not interfere. the genuine amiga is what (and where) it ever was, with its pros and contras it remains the stable quality. while what has (apparently) been hacked (excuse me for that word) out of its operating system source, by (for most part) completely different team of people is another story; whether they have an official source or not, whether they have a license and right to do so or not, whether they have the ability or not. the problem is to pretend this all is one big single thing. it isnt. lets realize its a fan driven amateur approach after the decline of professional company, best case. lets not try to pertend aros is amiga, morphos is amiga done right, and os4 is the only true and official amiga and from that point on everything is easy and calm.

It puzzles me that, whenever discussing the future of Amiga OS or "an amiga OS", the features everyone keeps mentioning are the features of every-other-os. SMP. Memory protection. GPU support. Etc. etc. etc. ..

But then, when asked why you don't move to Windows or Linux or MacOs, the answer is "eh you know, they're boring"

So what makes Amiga OS / "an amiga OS" different? Let's not even say "fun", let's say just different. The tight resources? Datatypes? The structure of system folders? The draggable screens? The system wide RAM disk support?

Or perhaps just the fact that when you turn on your system, you know only you and a very small bunch of other guys with a common glorious past are using that. You can share memories, talk a common language, be part of a small cozy family.

TEN years spent reinventing the wheel make obvious that unconsciously, the amiga people DO NOT want their small garden to become a big amusement park again. Otherwise - instead of struggling with the OS 3.1 legacy, Hyperion or the Morphos team or whoever else, in those TEN years could had just
- taken the Linux kernel
- add kernel-level UAE emulation
- add subsystems to mimic the main OS 3.1 features
- add macros to match amigaDOS commands
- Skin the whole thing as AmigaOS

Done, you have a new AmigaOS that bears all the things you love about amiga, runs most of the legacy stuff, frees the whole thing from old/expensive architectures, etc. etc. - and if you don't go digging deep under the hood you won't know at all it has a linux kernel underneath.

If you think the above is more difficult than developing a whole OS, you're very very oh so very wrong.

If you think the final result won't feel the same as AmigaOS, then it must be that when you use your amiga you keep a CPU monitor and a system folders structure windows open all the time to remind you what's behind the UX.

Last edited by resle on 29-Oct-2013 at 05:42 AM.
Last edited by resle on 29-Oct-2013 at 03:37 AM.

@resle


92 minutes of applause!!! An italian meme, though...

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@tonyw

Working and effective are different things, like I said. Plus the Forbid() problem is going to be... interesting. The OS does not know what a a locking task will do in its Forbid()/Permit() block, so it will surely have to stall all the CPUs, just in case?

Anyway, lets see what can be done. :) It'll certainly be great to see.

Last edited by Aslak3 on 29-Oct-2013 at 08:07 AM.

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@resle

"It puzzles me that, whenever discussing the future of Amiga OS or "an amiga OS", the features everyone keeps mentioning are the features of every-other-os. SMP. Memory protection. GPU support. Etc. etc. etc. .."

btw. as far as I see it, only WIndows has had pretty good GPU support. Everything else is limited more or less.

"The tight resources?"
+1 (even though AOS4 is fat when compared to AOS3 ...)

"Datatypes?"
+1

"The structure of system folders?"
++1

" The draggable screens?"
+0.5

"The system wide RAM disk support?"
+1

and
-Simple system to master fully
-superb support for certain common HW (commodore times, I really miss this)
-flexible system (look what was possible between 1994-1999 without official OS updates)
-user in full control of things (full control of the OS doings without need to "compile my own linux", vmem/qmem, executive, screens per app,...)
-no mandatory to mess with commandline (like on linux)
-fastest (with lightweight apps)
-runs on big endian CPU
...

(I've used a lot of OSs and so far not found as nice as our Amigalikes.)

But everyone likes a little different things.


"instead of struggling with the OS 3.1 legacy"

JanusUAE has showd us how it can be handled if nothing else works.
Now when AOS has xkernell, they hopefully get rid of all legacy burden ASAP.
(MOS guys will do it when they get rid of PPC ISA, not sure about AROS... )

There is no sense in reinventing AOS3.1. When we should do AOS-NG.

" could had just
- taken the Linux kernel
- add kernel-level UAE emulation
- add subsystems to mimic the main OS 3.1 features
- add macros to match amigaDOS commands
- Skin the whole thing as AmigaOS"
+hide linux complexity
+select and set officially supported HW (linux is a mess)
+simple SW installs
+etc..,.


"If you think the above is more difficult than developing a whole OS, you're very very oh so very wrong."

We need comments from OS developers.


"If you think the final result won't feel the same as AmigaOS"

So far no linux flavour "feels" like AmigaOS. What bothers me greatly is the little slowness in every function of the OS (currently trying Unity Ubuntu on 4x4Ghz system).


What I would love to see is that OS core developers would come together every now and then and discuss and learn and plan together. Intelligence from AOS+AROS+AEROS+ARIX+MOS core developers should yield success towards AOS-NG.



btw. nice summing about AROS flavours: http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6905#91540
"Their is no difference between Aros i386 native and hosted regarding compatibility to apps. N need to do special compiles of applications. Any i386 aros app runs under native aros, as well as under hosted aros. Same will be true for arix.
Difference between aeros and arix will be that aeros comes with a fully working linux environment while arix uses only the linuxkernel for hw abstraction."

How does AEROS and ARIX handle SMP, MP and 64bit? (I believe GPU limitations come from linux)

Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Oct-2013 at 08:27 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Oct-2013 at 08:02 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Oct-2013 at 07:58 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Oct-2013 at 07:58 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?