@matthey

Quote:

Hyperion obviously doesn't understand either of these business/economics concepts as they suffer more and more. Maybe the Amiga will survive in some form but I doubt it will be because of AmigaOS 4 and PowerPC, 64 bit or not.

Really? and you can back that statement with fact?

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@KimmoK

Well, their e6500 does 3.3DMIPS/MHz/Core in single thread mode, 6DMIPS/MHz/Core in dual thread mode. Their 64 bit ARM is probably not going to support multithreading.

I find it a little funny that people claim ARM is not hopelessly behind everything else on the metric "performance per clock", though. Cause it is. It's just that it's so impossibly far ahead on the metric "performance per Watt" that it ends up being the only possible choice for handheld devices (allthough Intel is creeping up on them).

The only reason you can do video on an ARM-popwered device is that there's a video processor for off-loading the processing from the ARM.

Which is something I've been harping about for at least a year now. We need to start supporting some off-loading techniques to have any hope of catching up.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

" We need to start supporting some off-loading techniques "

If the main GPU plan is RadeonHD, then it would mean investing more in getting RadeonHD accelerators supported.
(even 667Mhz SAM should be fast enough for some full HD videos etc, far better than RasberryPi)

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

I suspect the reason behind no on-board audio for the X1000 successors may be due to future plans to leverage the HDMI audio on Radeon graphic cards.

It looks like Radeon HDMI audio has just recently matured on Linux so the source code is there documenting how to drive the audio portion of the cards.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTUwMTY

@gregthecanuck

Also, putting a chip onboard at cost X makes little sense when you can bundle a complete PCIe sound card solution for a cost less than X

It's impossible to compete with Taiwanese companies on cost of PC chips

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@gregthecanuck

This was discussed on Amigans.net .

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?post_id=85212#forumpost85212

Quote:

gregthecanuck wrote: @KimmoK I suspect the reason behind no on-board audio for the X1000 successors may be due to future plans to leverage the HDMI audio on Radeon graphic cards. It looks like Radeon HDMI audio has just recently matured on Linux so the source code is there documenting how to drive the audio portion of the cards. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTUwMTY

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@olegil

"when you can bundle a complete PCIe sound card solution"
+ it brings some use for that insane amount of expansion slots of cyrus
+ many users would be ok even with sound chip on USB bus

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

I can think of worse things to put on USB than a sound chip.

Graphics immediately springs to mind.

The point is, though, if you're putting in expansion slots, you shouldn't need to put in all those functions on your motherboard. Because people won't be using them, they'll be using better implementations on an expansion card.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

I suspect the reason behind no on-board audio for the X1000 successors may be due to future plans to leverage the HDMI audio on Radeon graphic cards.

I doubt that is the case. HDMI wouldn't be useful to those who don't have a monitor that supports it and would in most cases require a seperate break out box for those that prefer to hear there audio through a seperate set of speakers. Far easier to just plug in a sound card.

@michalsc

On Amiga you can't have shared .so libraries due to shared address space model.

_________________
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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@Kronos

Just a few corrections for you.

Amiga OS is 32 Bit not 31 Bit

I'm not 100% sure about Amiga OS needing to be 64 Bit or not for this, but with Windows you need it to run more than 3GB or Ram

I mentioned Radeon Card Support up to the most current cards, because it's a choice for people to have, whether they need it or not or if the current game/application selection needs it or not

Yes I could buy a 2TB or larger HDD, but I'm not talking about what I have right now, but for the future Amiga X5000

Why buy a 3.0USB PCIe card if it's a standard, as well as, SATA III

" 5000 DPI Mouse - Logitech Type Gaming Keyboard and/or Video Editing Keyboards
I'd rather have them not include any mouse or keyboard as these most of the time turn out to be utter crap! " Ok, that's your opinion, but again, that comes down to
choice by an individual.

While you say a 50W or smaller PSU can support the system, why only have that? You're going to have to upgrade to throw in any reasonable upgrades.

"Built in Sound Blaster type X-FI card with HD output
Not sure what thats supposed to mean, pretty sure i don't need it." It means it's a High Definition sound card, and a good one at that. I'd wager 99.9% of people with Amigas would like/need that. I like to hear my games/programs.

It all came to what I originally mention, which you might have glanced over. I'll repeat my statement - You have a choice in the type of hardware you add to your system. I'm used to have lots of choices and freely exercising my options to buy what I want, whether I need it or not. I might seem ridiculous to you, but it's my choice. This isn't like the old days of 68000 where we were going against pitiful PC machines that could barely hold their own against the Amiga. We need every edge we can get to get somewhat "normal." I still like the Amiga a lot, but to be realistic, it's not even as powerful as my Samsung Galaxy 4 phone. I'm simply hoping, as many others are, that the new Amiga Hardware is beefy in all the right places and that we can have a little more choice in what we can put in it, that's all. Thanks for your points though.

Ed

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@edponpon

Yes the G4 CPU is 32bit, but OS is restricted to 31bit atm, only 2Gbytes of RAM is allowed, not 4Gbytes aka 32bit.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Feb-2014 at 06:02 PM.

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Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @cdimauro "ARMs have not intrinsicly less performance than PowerPCs" So far ARM has been totally inferior for high end embedded use.

OK, so in your opinion this will NEVER change, right?

Do you recognize some intrinsic defect(s) on the ARM ISA, compared to the PowerPC one, that prevents them to get more horse power, whatever is the future changes in the micro-implementation that can applied?

If the answer is yes, please, can you show me how this can happen? Thanks.
Quote:

Too low computing power, memory capability and throughput.

So this is NOT solvable, I suppose, right?
Quote:

(at least according to coremark) (IIRC, fastest ARM chips have been 1/6 of the speed of the fastest PPC or intel chips and fastest ARM integrated GPUs have been similarly slow when compared to RadeonHD series)

You're comparing apples with oranges. Why don't you compare similar products? For example the dual core Cortex-A15 with a QorIQ (which represents the future of Freescale's PowerPCs)? You'll find some surprises...
Quote:

But coming 64bit ARM chips most likely change things...

Yes, it'll change both due to the new ISA and to a different micro-architecture. Again, take a look at Apple's massive 7-ways superscalar A7.
Quote:

"Freescale has disclosed that it'll invest in R&D only for ARMs. That's the crude reality..." Where? Link please. Last time I read that they reduce architectures that they develop (like 68k/coldfire). (and in y2012 material there was NG Power Architecture after T/AMP series, but surely that would happen only after/if AMP series is superb succesfull)

We already discussed some time ago, but I can report again the source: http://www.statesman.com/news/business/freescale-makes-changes-for-stronger-push-into-arm/nTkjs/

"The more recent change has been to ARM, which Freescale has embraced with full force after Motorola fought it for years.
[...]
We still do have products based on other architectures, but virtually 100 percent of our research and development is directed toward 32-bit ARM-based (chips)."
Quote:

To my understanding past ARM chips have been pretty incompatible with each other. Meaning that users need to recompile their apps for every ARM chip, or to use JAVA. Is that changing?

The situation is very similar the PowerPCs one.
Quote:

Are ARM 64bit chips binary compatible with each other?

Only on a large subset. Exactly like PowerPCs.
Quote:

(binary compatibility has been one PPC advantage with "only" few exceptions (like the v500 core).

It wasn't. The v500 core is just one, well known, example of such incompatibilities. Take a look at some messages in this thread, and you'll find some other cases. But there are others.
Quote:

Said this hundred times, but IMO, ARM is not a sane option yet. x64 is the only sane option beside PPC. (and I vote that Amiga developers should focus in x64 and PPC only) (When some linux distro like Bodhi drop ARM support, I feel our niche has hard time to do what they could not.)

I don't care what architecture can be chosen. The only certain thing is that PowerPCs isn't the way to go....
Quote:

UPDATE: ARM chips binary compatibility is not as bad as I thought. But often it is just recommended to recompile your code. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4381102/differences-between-arm-architectures-from-a-c-programmers-perspective "To sum up, if you have C code, then recompile it. Do not try to reuse code compiled for another architecture or system." " The floating point units though are not binary compatible so you have to be careful there. In theory you could compile one least common denominator binary that works across the board, it might not perform well enough though. And/or you could have if-then-else code in the program that if this core or whatever is detected then use it otherwise dont." Interesting bits: "By default all Android apps run in a VM and are thus processor architecture agnostic, Intel believes that roughly 75% of all Android apps in the Market don't feature any native ARM code." etc... http://www.anandtech.com/show/5365/intels-medfield-atom-z2460-arrive-for-smartphones/5 Anyway... it still seems that there is no ARM (binary) standard CPU family that could be used like PPC or x64 can be used.

You can have extensions to the ISA and/or missing components, as happens to PowerPC too.

The only exception is x86 / x64, for which retrocompatibility is a "requirement" which is generally satisfied.
Quote:

UPDATE2: Before doing any ISA change... it might be more sane to do some VM to abstract the CPU core.... I think the rest of the world might do it everywhere, then there would not be any sane binary compatible cores to use natively. (windows has .net, android some other,

And there's also LLVM...

Anyway, thinking about a VM is premature now. First you have to chose a new ISA.
Quote:

how long will we see fully binary compatible x64 chips?)

What do you mean?
Quote:

KimmoK wrote: I personally would love to know what are the plans with xkernell.

You know: the plans lie below a pile of incredible trade secrets that cannot be shown.
Quote:

Is it planned to have full backwards compatibility with AOS4.1 SW binaries?

I think so.
Quote:

Is it bringing “some” use for 64bit addressing (like RAM disk above 4GB or swap file in high RAM or???)?

Can be, as I already stated.
Quote:

Is it bringing new API for NG apps?

For AMP there's a need for new API.
Quote:

Ideally we should have one 64bit branch for true ArOS64, that MOS, AOS and AROS fans could use to build 64bit SMP + MP capable NG of their flavour.

AROS is open source since the beginning, so it's possible.
Quote:

Small update about freescale roadmaps: Freescale: "We absolutely stay committed to our Power Architecture and our new e6500 core delivers an unmatched performance/power ratio for the years to come. We continue to invest in this area." After e6500 there are "planned": e6501, NGC

The e6501 will have only a feature added. Not that much to let talking about a new micro-architecture.

NGC seems interesting, but there's no other information, unfortunately.
Quote:

from: http://www.freescale.com/files/training/doc/dwf/DWF13_APF_NET_T0795.pdf

As usual, they do the benchmark that they like and put their product in a good shape.

Comparing the OLD processors (Sandybridge) to their NEW ones is just a marketing advertise.
Quote:

And for the first time I read about freescale plans for 64bit ARM.

I already read it some time ago.
Quote:

They plan to have some 4MIPS/Mhz/core while e6500 already does 6MIPS. etc...

How do they achieve this value? It's too high for a 2-super-pipeline processor.
Quote:

Future LayerScape with ARM: 8 ARM Atlas CPUs, 64b, up to 2.4GHz LayerScape 3400: 20x e6500, 64b, up to 1.5GHz (40 virtual cores per SoC?) Some new “T” model: T4400 (no details of it, most likely below 2Ghz + 40 virtual cores)

I saw them, but I read that their target will the usual embedded.
Quote:

From MZone: http://www.morphzone.info/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=3&topic_id=7675&post_id=106836&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1

So what?
Quote:

update... And LS2035P seems to be e5500 based.... PCIe Gen3, DDR4, USB etc. are coming. (someone might find use for 100Gbit ethernet as well ) Not real info about T5xxx and T3xxx. Dualcore T5 would be nice for A1. Also there might be some variant with P5 pincompatibility. The NGCore should bring more single thread performance...

It's the only one which seems to show a new miceo-architecture.

Last edited by cdimauro on 05-Feb-2014 at 06:18 AM.
Last edited by cdimauro on 04-Feb-2014 at 10:40 PM.

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote: @michalsc On Amiga you can't have shared .so libraries due to shared address space model.

Maybe with a good MMU usage it's possible to get rid of this problem.

Last edited by cdimauro on 04-Feb-2014 at 10:39 PM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Quote: On Amiga you can't have shared .so libraries due to shared address space model. Maybe with a good MMU usage it's possible to get rid of this problem.

Then you are not using shared address space anymore. Perhaps if hybrid model was introduced with mixed private and shared address space but it is more trouble than worth.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@edponpon

There are quite alot of SBC PowerPC's based on the 24 core T4240.

http://www.acq.nl/hardware/sbc-powerpc.php

eg
http://eecatalog.com/vme/2013/02/19/qoriq-t4240-3u-openvpx-sbc-riov-2440/

With something like this and a Fast RadeonHD chip we can have our own Amiga Console :)

Once we have the core hardware FIXED we start on a portable Assembler + AmigaAPI + OpenGL suite for fast efficient portable developer environment.

Even AGA in AMDs Mantle API.

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@itix

Quote:

itix wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Maybe with a good MMU usage it's possible to get rid of this problem. Then you are not using shared address space anymore. Perhaps if hybrid model was introduced with mixed private and shared address space but it is more trouble than worth.

I agree, but if you implement virtual memory you need it anyway, and the o.s. should handle all the burdens.

@asymetrix

Quote:

asymetrix wrote: @edponpon There are quite alot of SBC PowerPC's based on the 24 core T4240. http://www.acq.nl/hardware/sbc-powerpc.php eg http://eecatalog.com/vme/2013/02/19/qoriq-t4240-3u-openvpx-sbc-riov-2440/ With something like this and a Fast RadeonHD chip we can have our own Amiga Console :)

An Amiga o.s./like console. Amiga was a different thing.

But... what about the price?
Quote:

Once we have the core hardware FIXED we start on a portable Assembler + AmigaAPI + OpenGL suite for fast efficient portable developer environment. Even AGA in AMDs Mantle API.

And... what about the resources to implement all that stuff?

@cdimauro

>>So far ARM has been totally inferior for high end embedded use.
>OK, so in your opinion this will NEVER change, right?

No.
I said so far.
And it seems the near future chips are the same, even though they are catching up.

But currently, going for ARM would not benefit any desktop use.

>>(IIRC, fastest ARM chips have been 1/6 of the speed of the fastest PPC or intel chips and fastest ARM integrated GPUs have been similarly slow when compared to RadeonHD series)
>You're comparing apples with oranges. Why don't you compare similar products?

I compare what can be compared.
For desktop, we do not want cell phone chip.

For high end, only Cavium/MIPS and Power Architecture are in the same ballpark with high end i7.

>For example the dual core Cortex-A15 with a QorIQ (which represents the future of Freescale's PowerPCs)? You'll find some surprises...

Even the coming ARM offerings seem to be behind.

(for example, look the freescale ARM+PPC roadmap. their PPC core powered offerings will be superior to ARM, in the near future at least. And for example AMD's coming ARM offerings does not yet seem to beat PPCs from freescale.)

>>"Freescale has disclosed that it'll invest in R&D only for ARMs. That's the crude reality..."
>We already discussed some time ago, but I can report again the source: http://www.statesman.com/news/business/freescale-makes-changes-for-stronger-push-into-arm/nTkjs/

>"...We still do have products based on other architectures, but virtually 100 percent of our research and development is directed toward 32-bit ARM-based (chips)."

Ok, that's old info from some interview, meant for PR.
Official 2013 material says otherwise.
(Power Architecture will be developed in/for the high end and customer can select Power/ARm in the mid/low end)

(and 32bit ARM is not high end, etc etc...)

>>To my understanding past ARM chips have been pretty incompatible with each other.
>>Meaning that users need to recompile their apps for every ARM chip, or to use JAVA.
>The situation is very similar the PowerPCs one.

No it's not.

> The only certain thing is that PowerPCs isn't the way to go....

x64 is better for desktop.
(not 100% sure if it's best for custom desktop)

For our niche, PPC gives some advantages.

>You can have extensions to the ISA and/or missing components, as happens to PowerPC too.

No.
You can run the same binary from PPC601 with FPU etc, on almost every PPC chip.
It's not like that on ARM.

>>how long will we see fully binary compatible x64 chips?)
>What do you mean?

The trend seems to be non-binary compatible in the mainstream. (IMHO)
So, at some point x64 makers will start t6o drop the HW legacy to compete with ARM etc.
.net makes that possible.
But for native SW fans (like Amigans) the trend might bring problems.

anyway...

UPDATE:
-I'm more familiar with PPC and due to PPCs desktop legacy, it seems to have better binary compatibility etc. (when compared to ARM offerings) but the truth might be anyway different.
-only IMO: there is no forcing need to change CPU ISA for AOS. We have plenty of PPC technology to explore and there are plans for new cores as well.
-It is possible to do affordable HW around PPC.
-PPC has enough CPU muscle for most of the needs, new cores are "only" nice to have
-Amigalike systems need to start using multicore etc. so the biggest challenge is in SW, let's not make it even harder with a ISA change at this point
-if AOS is planned to start using off-the-self motherboards, then x64 is the way
-if we are going to have custom Amiga boards, then PPC is ok (or best) for now

But that's just my view. (debating does not bring further new to the topic IMO)

Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Feb-2014 at 08:07 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 05-Feb-2014 at 06:37 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@cdimauro

You van have virtual memory without introducing private address space. Both OS4 and MorphOS implement virtual memory but they don't provide private address space to ABox environment.

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