@angrybrit

Quote:

The community is split thanks to Amiga Inc and their hairbrained schemes.

Amiga Inc. has been one of the worst and most destructive owners of the Amiga but any sort of 'split' is not solely down to Amiga Inc. There were horrifically comical business decisions on both sides of this tiny user base. This is certainly a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other.

What I find amazing is that the companies that really matter, Hyperion and Eyetech, have managed to sail through all of the crap put out by Amiga Inc. and Genesi whilst working on what I truly believe to be one of the most remarkable pieces of software ever in the shape of OS4 and the hardware to run it on.

Quote:

And deep down... You knew this kind of software would turn up sooner or later.

What software? As far as we can tell the OS4emu is just a ramshackle hack together of a few elements of OS4. It certainly cannot be useable and I fail to see how it can ever be usable. Hardware emulation is one thing - but emulating a constantly improving closed source (and rightly so) OS is going to be impossible. In light of current events such software is hardly going to be used by an increasing number of new users either so its future is one of eroding popularity anyway.

I certainly don't wish ill on MOS and certainly never wanted to see it end like this, but OS4 emulators? Sounds like last desperate death throes to me.

Last edited by -Sam- on 24-Nov-2004 at 09:52 PM.

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Sam

@angrybrit

Quote:

Do you assume the average Amigan will purchase both expensive motherboards?

What kind of argument is that? Do you expect to drive a Toyota but take advantage of Honda's air conditioner? Sorry, you make a decision at one point. So does the software company. If Titan doesn't want an OS 4 version, this is a shame but cannot be changed. You have to live with it.

Quote:

Let Cloanto release a new version of Amiga Forever with AmigaOS4 instead of AmigaOS 3.X?

The "community" is split because of very long neglect by the mother company (Commodore in this case, and their follow-ups) and because of the fact that some players couldn't work together.

The "community" is split because some people cannot keep themselves from posting on threads on ANN or amiga-news.de to heat up the situation.

The "community" is split because certain people tried to canibalize the market for their own purpose.

Amiga Inc owns the IP. It is their right to do with it what they want. Genesi had a chance to go along with it. They didn't want to. This is a mutual thing, not to be blamed on one or the other. They're free to decide. A compromise is not a total surrender of one side or the other, it's meeting in the middle.

So please, don't go blaming people like that.

Quote:

And deep down... You knew this kind of software would turn up sooner or later.

That is totally irrelevant. Of course we suspected that this would turn up, however, that doesn't give anybody the right to call someone stupid just because he doesn't like it. Ergo, this is completely irrelevant.

Quote:

Let Cloanto release a new version of Amiga Forever with AmigaOS4 instead of AmigaOS 3.X?

Beg your pardon, but I don't the heck know what you are talking about.

Last edited by Rogue on 25-Nov-2004 at 12:43 AM.

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@-Sam-

Quote:

I certainly don't wish ill on MOS and certainly never wanted to see it end like this, but OS4 emulators? Sounds like last desperate death throes to me.

As the author explained, the project was just for fun and is completely unrelated to the current situation of MorphOS (the timing suggests the app was being worked on before this MOS thing became public, right?). I'm not aware of any great urge to run AmigaOS4 software, what there is of it, on MorphOS. It seems to be just coincidense that the MOS situation and this little tool came along at about the same time. If and when significant software is released for AOS4 but not for MOS, then it wouldn't be surprising to see some kind of more capable emulator being worked on (and this is also true for the reverse direction ).

-- gary_c

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@angrybrit

Quote:

If you want to sell more boxes of AmigaOS4... Let Cloanto release a new version of Amiga Forever with AmigaOS4 instead of AmigaOS 3.X?

How on earth would that work? Amiga Forever is based on the UAE emulator. OS 4 is PPC NOT 68K so either a PPC emulator would have to be written or Pear adapted to work with OS4 (Or the other way round) either way you have a massive performance hit of using PPC software under emulation on x86. Look at how MacOS X performs, it simply isn't usable.
A better solution would be to do a native x86 port of OS 4 but as Hyperion have said all along this is financial suicide as you are going head to head with M$

@digitaldisaster

Quote:

either a PPC emulator would have to be written or Pear adapted to work with OS4 (Or the other way round) either way you have a massive performance hit of using PPC software under emulation on x86.

That's where the AmigaHalf side-car comes in
(A PCI-express board with a PPC on it)

_________________
AlexC's free OS4 software collection

AmigaOne XE/X1000/X5000/UAE-PPC OS4 laptop/X-10 Home Automation

@angrybrit


Quote:

If you want to sell more boxes of AmigaOS4... Let Cloanto release a new version of Amiga Forever with AmigaOS4 instead of AmigaOS 3.X?

Ahem...

Don't forget, Cloanto have a valid license to distribute AmigaOS 3.1 and the necessary ROMs from Amiga Inc. So, even IF it were possible to emulate AmigaOS 4 on the x86 platform, Cloanto would still be required to obtain a license (unless they wanted to get sued) and that license would assuredly require some form of monetary compensation to Hyperion.

Which is what EntilZha and Rogue are getting at. They want to get compensated for their work on OS4 plain and simple.

I doubt there will be any such product though, as it would make more sense to port OS4 to the x86 platform than to emulate it there. And I'm sure that that won't happen any time soon... Not unless KMOS is looking to go toe-to- toe with M$ (yeah right) or hoping that M$ is too distracted by Linux and/or Zeta and/or whatever (yeah right) and/or M$ finally collapse under their own dead weight (nice thought, but... YEAH RIGHT!)

Last edited by ShadesOfGrey on 25-Nov-2004 at 02:38 AM.

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Unless otherwise explicitly stated, this message is not meant to affirm nor deny, defend nor offend any faction within the 'Amiga' Community.

@Mr.Return

I had to re-check (since I looked when I made the post) -- you're right -- the $694.90 price includes memory & a video card (same as the A1c).

So they DO sell a bare board for $589.90. Hmmm . . . I guess the A1 DOES cost twice as much -- my bad!

The point of my response was to rebut someone saying that the Peg was cheaper and more readily available (both of which are untrue).

(you do know that the Pegasos board isn't available to end users any more, right?)

Last edited by klesterjr on 25-Nov-2004 at 03:07 AM.

@digitaldisaster

Quote:

Look at how MacOS X performs, it simply isn't usable.

MacOS X 10.3.4 + PearPC 0.4Pre-JIT is usable on a fast PC with plenty of memory e.g. +3Ghz(or 3000+ rated) and 512MB RAM. Note, AOS4 and MOS1.4 doesn?t have same footprint or requirements as MacOS X(e.g. GUI effects).

PS; This emulator wouldn?t negate the need for PPC HW solutions for actual deployments. There?s nothing new in PPC emulators/simulators (i.e. most of the commercial PPC simulators targets R&D PowerPC deployments).

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Nov-2004 at 03:40 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Nov-2004 at 03:31 AM.

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@angrybrit

Hello??? Anybody there??? What kind of comparison is that?

Nobody loses if Papyrus was made to work for OS4, not Titan,
not Genesi/Bplan, MOS or OS4 users, certainly not Hyperion or
any other I can think of.. Can you???
Btw it does work The 68k/OS3 version will probably work anyway..

There is no one person/entitys fault alone.. But I agree Amiga Inc has
not done well in the past.

And how would OS4 gain sales with that (Amiga Forever)???
Piracy would get the best of it! Also we could kiss goodbye to any
special Amiga hardware.. And always be dependant on Windows/Intel
and/or their BIOS and such.. :( Bad idea!!!

Think Before you write next time!


/Harry

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/Harry

[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case

Avatar by HNL_DK!

@angrybrit

Quote:

Do you assume the average Amigan will purchase both expensive motherboards?

Never said that. Assume there was a usable OS4 emu on MOS: People look at the products (A1/OS4 vs. Peg/MOS), and see, "hey, MOS can run everything OS4 does, and more". So what would they go for ?

That is the frigging point I try to make. And again, I know the emulation isn't anywhere near usability. However, again, I find it rather hillarious that people tell me here it would be a good thing.

Quote:

If you want to sell more boxes of AmigaOS4... Let Cloanto release a new version of Amiga Forever with AmigaOS4 instead of AmigaOS 3.X?

And how would that work ? I seem to remember that UAE is 68k, and OS4 is PPC.

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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@gary_c

[quote] I'm not aware of any great urge to run AmigaOS4 software, what there is of it, on MorphOS[quote]

Funnily enough, I hear this kind of argument all the time from your side. "There is no software on AmigaOS that would be worth it" and "we don't need such an emulation". Still it is there.

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@angrybrit

>If you want to sell more boxes of AmigaOS4... Let Cloanto release a new version of Amiga Forever with AmigaOS4 instead of AmigaOS 3.X?<


How I see this...
If OS4Emu for MOS is usable and good enough to replace "OS4 need" for MOS Users.
Advantages (not necessarily in my opinion, but which someone could see)
1.> That can be done to have MOS Users "adopting" AOS4 (a few of them but not many may in this case consider an A1+Official AOS4)

2.> That can be done to offer MOS user a good alternative to MOS (as MOS may not have much support for much longer according to Genesi Problems).

3.> If OS4EMU (or OS4 native) become the OS of choice for Pegs, that could be a "good" revenge against BBRV/Genesi,...

4.> It could offer OS4 to people with a tied budget (if we consider Pegs as being cheaper).

5.> Possibly more developers of OS4 Apps...

Disadvantages:
1.> IF OS4/OS4Emu can run on Pegs (if we consider Pegs as being cheaper), then why people may want to buy an AmigaOne ? Lost of sales to Eyetech.

2.> If this OS4Emu is developed diirectly by a third party (which may not need to pay any licences) then lost of Sales for Hyperion.

3.> If Hyperion and Eyetech loose too many sales, then they may not be able to support any more the A1 and OS4. So we may end up with just OS4Emu having some support but NO Pegs/Mos/A1/AOS4 !

4.> If Eyetech loose too many sales then the chances for the A1 Prices to go down are really slim (read: NULL)

5.> If 3 Happen, then that may scare a lot of Amiga Users AND Devs, killing the platform (ending up in a worse situation than for the past 10 years !).

We can of course add a few more Advantages and disadvantages, but from that my conclusions are:
- OS4Emu is a nice project in a dev perpective.
- I really do not think it's a way to go as it may be positive to the Amiga Community in the short term (more devs?) but REALLY negative in the long term if Hyperion and Eyetech "withdraw" themselves from the Amiga Community (KMOS would certainly follow them, leaving no more compagnies behind the Amiga).

- The OS4Emu author proved that he can be a good developer, it would be better if he concentrate now at developing REAL apps for MOS or AOS4 (OK I would prefer for AOS4, but hey, it's his decision after all)

Jerry

Last edited by Jerryuk007 on 25-Nov-2004 at 03:28 PM.

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- AOS has been ported to ex-86 ! It's called AROS and WinUAE... Or E-UAE on Linux !

- A1XE-G4 up and runing with:
512MB Ram / 200GB and 80GB HardDisks on Sii0680.
AOS4 Final Update / AmiZilla 0.1 Alpha

@Rogue

Quote:

Funnily enough, I hear this kind of argument all the time from your side. "There is no software on AmigaOS that would be worth it" and "we don't need such an emulation". Still it is there.

Sure. It's there as one individual's fun little project. You know how these guys are: the challenge of doing something like that is the fun part and the motivation, not the practical need. Is nobody with AOS4 and some coding skills thinking about making a tool to run MOS applications? If not, shame on you guys: you're not honoring the heritage of emulation on the Amiga (or amiga-like) computers!

-- gary_c

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@gary_c
Quote:

Quote: Funnily enough, I hear this kind of argument all the time from your side. "There is no software on AmigaOS that would be worth it" and "we don't need such an emulation". Still it is there. Sure. It's there as one individual's fun little project. You know how these guys are: the challenge of doing something like that is the fun part and the motivation, not the practical need. Is nobody with AOS4 and some coding skills thinking about making a tool to run MOS applications? If not, shame on you guys: you're not honoring the heritage of emulation on the Amiga (or amiga-like) computers!

I believe Rogue was responding to your little "what there is of it" poke above regarding the amount of OS4-only software that is available. I think your bias is showing... (as is mine from responding of course)

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@Mr.Return
Quote:

All that could be achieved by emulating OS 4 on MOS would be cannibalizing the OS 4 sales and therefore stopping the development. Great, really.

How can that be? Are Pegasos users buying AOS4? It was my understanding that AOS4 was not available for the Pegasos. ???

_________________
Pegasos1/MOS1.4.2 and Mac Sawtooth G4

@dslcc

Welcome to AW.net (or at least your first post).

>Are Pegasos users buying AOS4?<
NO.

>It was my understanding that AOS4 was not available for the Pegasos. ???
Indeed.

>How can that be?<
We are talking about OS4Emu for Pegs which was a project done "for fun" and not fully finished.


Jerry

Last edited by Jerryuk007 on 26-Nov-2004 at 07:48 AM.

_________________
- AOS has been ported to ex-86 ! It's called AROS and WinUAE... Or E-UAE on Linux !

- A1XE-G4 up and runing with:
512MB Ram / 200GB and 80GB HardDisks on Sii0680.
AOS4 Final Update / AmiZilla 0.1 Alpha

I agree with what Rogue and EntilZha say.

We must consider that they live thank's to revenues on AmigaOS4 OEM sales

Each new Amiga sold has a copy of AmigaOS. That is a guarantee.

Each Aos4 emulator sold will not give a penny back to Hyperion. Or we think that everyone will buy a copy with the emulator!?!?! Pegasos users like Amiga ones will grab their P2P program and download a copy of OS4....

"IF" the emulator runs fine or will run fine , the best solution for a NEW user is to buy
a Pegasos with Morphos , get an emulator with a "free" copy of Amigaos4...

The best of two world at the price of 1!

Who will gain profit on all this ? Genesi.

Eyetech will loose sales due to their high priced machines.
If Eyetech does not sell machines Hyperion will not get money from their OEM copies.

in a few word's we will have all disadvantages that Jerryuk007 wrote above...

Again..
This is also a bit fault of the "HIGH PRICES" IMHO of the new AmigaOne machines.

But who knows... emulations are annoying , they never perform 100% or are 100% compatible.. people get tired.

kaosmaster^iris

@kaos_IRS

Are you talking about this Emu or some distant future Emu?
Quote:

Pegasos users like Amiga ones will grab their P2P program and download a copy of OS4....

And exactly what are Pegasos users going to do with OS4? OS4 *still* doesn't run on Pegasos as you may well know, and no, you can not use OS4 with OS4Emu. They would need an A1 emulator for that.

Really, how could this emulation be usable?
How could a system that has been taking (is taking) years to develop be fully emulated be one man in a 39k library?
As for now:
-MorphOS is AmigaOS3.x/68k compatible and runs on PPC.
-AmigaOS4 is AmigaOS3.x/68k compatible and runs on PPC.

So the developper of OS4 emu saw it as a good fun opportunity. It was certainly not so difficult to make this piece of software. Actually, it is probably mainly usable with OS4 software that are just quick conversions of OS3.x releases.
But when software will use new functionnalities of OS4, it will be another challenge. And if one day MorphOS moves from Abox to Qbox, it will be almost impossible.

Let's be nuts and imagine two insane war scenarios:
-paranoïac
OS4 Emu gets more and more compatible, people buy PegasOS+MorphOS (Genesi and MorphOS have no longer an argument, peace and love ), OS4 is a commercial failure since its apps are run on MorphOS (what's more, in hacked versions)

-ruling
MorphOS users use some OS4 apps, get used to them but newer versions use new functions that can't be emulated on MorphOS, so desperate users move to AmigaOne/OS4 (also because MorphOS is diying, or getting well and finally Qbox is used)

So IMHO each camp will stay on its positions, OS4Emu won't change anything.
I think OS4Emu can just be seen as a funny plus for MorphOS users, but hardly as a threat (or at least not durable). Personally I'll just forget about it.

Now Rogue & Entzilla have the right to think whatever they want (and they don't seem to care either so stop making them angry... )

@gary_c

Quote:

You know how these guys are: the challenge of doing something like that is the fun part and the motivation, not the practical need.

Fun part or not, why do it? Just because he thinks he can? He should have known that it wil stir a discussion, he should have known that some people might be ticked off. If the value of this emulation is so doubtful, then it only serves the purpose of provokation.

We will see when the first complains about certain OS 4 apps not functioning with the emulation pop up if its use is really that dubious. After all, all of our current and future games will be OS 4 exclusive, and while you can run old games on a WarpOS emulation, this will not work for future games.

It might be at the moment because it cannot run practically anything because of the MorphOS ELF loader, but that might change.

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