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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
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Raziel 
Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 8:51:14
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 2429
From: A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains

Dear AmigaKit,

so i bought the Radeon drivers v1 and i bought the drivers v2 seperately when they became available and i bought the full CANDI from before it was part of enhancer, then i also bought enhancer standard (because i already owned CANDI and the full versions of the Radeon drivers - of course with promises of free updates).

Why can't i access the 2.22 Radeon drivers now?

Don't tell me i need to pay yet again for a part of a part of a package i already paid before?

Is that your company model?
Milking dumb users with essential software?

Either seperate the stuff you want money for updates or create a package and leave it that way.
Shifting or extracting parts of packages around just to create income is low.

/me pissed

Thank you

_________________
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. ~ Sir Paul McCartney
-
Did everything just taste purple for a second? ~ Philip J. Fry
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style, ladies vomit when I smile. ~ Dr. John Zoidberg

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elwood 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 9:02:06
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3398
From: Lyon, France

@Raziel

Did you ask them in private first?

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Overflow 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 9:23:58
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1418
From: Norway

@Raziel

If you read several update threads whenever Amistore/Enhancer package is updated, there is always a couple of users that has similar issues. Matthew seems to sort them out when they make him aware of it.

Not saying thats the issue here, but just saying as a general comment.

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Raziel 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 9:25:27
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 2429
From: A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains

@elwood

Nope, why should i?

I know that the way to go (taken from the NEWS item) is to pay the upgrade fee for the Enhancer Plus version anbd i don't like it, statement given.

Keeping everything under the carpet is what makes America great again.

_________________
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. ~ Sir Paul McCartney
-
Did everything just taste purple for a second? ~ Philip J. Fry
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style, ladies vomit when I smile. ~ Dr. John Zoidberg

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Trixie 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 11:35:30
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1600
From: Czech Republic

@Raziel

Quote:
Nope, why should i?

Because this is the civilised way to do it. Your question is directed at a company, so you should ask that company, rather than stir hot air in a public forum.

_________________
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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Spectre660 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 12:53:55
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3569
From: Unknown

@Raziel

I understand how you feel . Direct communication with A-eon is the way to go.
I found the pdf for the announcement of the V2.4 Radeon drivers .
I don't see any mention about upgrades for the V2.4 series as far as I can see.
http://www.a-eon.biz/PDF/News_Release_RadeonHD24.pdf

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eliyahu 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 13:17:51
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1729
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Raziel

i understand your frustration. i don't think the policy has been publicly articulated to date.

@amigakit

could you please clarify the situation for customers who have already purchased radeonHD drivers? surely updates to the branch they purchased a license for should be made available, and if there is a fee (or necessary upgrade path to enhancer), could you please make that public? thanks!

edit: looks like matthew did make the policy clear in his reply on the announce thread, and it's not what i expected:

Quote:
The RadeonHD bought separately from AMIStore has already had a few free updates to v2.10 for non-Enhancer Software users.

The Enhancer Software contains a newer version of the RadeonHD v2.22 which has specific functionality for Warp3D Nova and the higher resolution screenmodes that Nova will require going forward. The components of the Enhancer Software are closely integrated and all the elements will be collectively upgraded as a package as they are/will be dependencies of each other.

which sounds like if you want the latest radeonHD drivers, you'll need to purchase enhancer. which would be the third purchase people would have had to make for the latest on this driver since its acquisition from A-EON. yikes. i really hope i've understood his post incorrectly.

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 24-Jul-2017 at 01:22 PM.

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Rob 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 14:01:40
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5586
From: S.Wales

@Raziel

You should have got the + edition, discounts would have been applied in regard to your existing licenses for Candi and RadeonHD drivers.

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Raziel 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 19:54:34
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 2429
From: A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains

@Rob

Yes, as i can see now the whole "Standard" and "Plus" Edition bs was just a way to rip off their customers.

Next edition will be "Ultimate" where everyone has to pay again to be able to load in workbench because of the newest addition to enhancer, "WBLoader" which replaces "LoadWB" (The only thing new is a pulsating dollar sign in the bottom right corner).

Some people may have the money to throw at companies, i certainly don't.

Amiga was my hobby from back when the A500 hit the stores and i had to literally sweat and bleed to save money for the hardware, software and games. I even pushed other important things back in the queue to "support" them.

There were promises of free updates when the Radeon drivers came to be, more promises of free updates when Enhancer came to be...easily broken as we can see now.

That one sentence about "already some free updates" for the RadeonHD drivers in the NEWS item is rich...now Mr. AmigaKit can change his promises with every little update and leech money from us, because "there already were some free updates"!!!

_________________
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. ~ Sir Paul McCartney
-
Did everything just taste purple for a second? ~ Philip J. Fry
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style, ladies vomit when I smile. ~ Dr. John Zoidberg

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Raziel 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 19:59:47
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 2429
From: A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains

@eliyahu

I fear that you have understand the post quite correctly.

They found their cow and now they are going to milk it until it's dry

_________________
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. ~ Sir Paul McCartney
-
Did everything just taste purple for a second? ~ Philip J. Fry
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style, ladies vomit when I smile. ~ Dr. John Zoidberg

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Raziel 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 20:08:54
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 2429
From: A haunted Castle somewhere in the Bavarian Mountains

@Trixie

The civilised way for a company would be to treat their paying customers with respect.

Which is definitely not the case.

Putting out an update and letting the customer find out by himself that he had to pay again for something he already paid a full version for is the way that that company will lose customers.

Oh, and btw, writing to, and expecting an answer from AmigaKit in a humanely timeframe is not possible. I have had two inquiries from my personal account at AmigaKit...that was more than three months ago...i never got them resolved, one of them i not even got a a single reaction from AmigaKit.

So, instead of waiting around three or four months with no answer, i rather go public.

Let them resolve their customer relations first and then i'll go back to using the inquiry form

_________________
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian. ~ Sir Paul McCartney
-
Did everything just taste purple for a second? ~ Philip J. Fry
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style, ladies vomit when I smile. ~ Dr. John Zoidberg

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Overflow 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 20:19:34
#12 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1418
From: Norway

@Raziel

Yeah, emailing Amigakit/aeon seems futile. Ive tried it a few times. That said; each time Ive private messaged Matthew directly via amiga.org or amigaworld.net Ive gotten quite quick responses.

As to the topic of driver cost etc; as Hans said in a different thread; he doesnt work for free, given he need food to be able to code...

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K-L 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 20:32:22
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1133
From: Oullins, France

@Raziel

And would you pay for un updated Radeon HD driver (without the Enhace Software Pack)?

I ask because Hans' work deserve some money and I doubt that releasing updates for free will help him go further in developping the Radeon HD driver.

The driver you paid for allowed you to obtain an updated free release which ended with the 2.10 version (as far as I understand).

People buying ESP+ and having already bought Radeon HD Driver 2.x can have a discount on the price of the pack. It's a commercial offer.

Maybe A-Eon should think about selling new updates of Radeon HD released after 2.10 and determine how many free updates you'll gest then.

But all in all, as far as I understand, if you want an updated version (post 2.10), you'll have to pay.

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ferrels 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 20:56:19
#14 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 688
From: Arizona

@K-L


Hans has already been paid for his work unless he has some sort of arrangement where he receives a percentage of any sales. Most freelance programmers DON'T work this way. They have a contract which specifies a deliverable product and a delivery date and expect payment in full once the product is delivered to the client, the product in this case being the driver that he was contracted to develop.

Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jul-2017 at 09:10 PM.
Last edited by ferrels on 24-Jul-2017 at 09:09 PM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 21:12:06
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3569
From: Unknown

Just looking at the RadeonHD v2 Series (Version 2.4) pdf brochure from AMistore .
Again no mention of any free update from version 2.4 .
Free updates up to version 2.10 were given .
So I can see were our expectations come from but there appears to be nothing binding for free updates.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 24-Jul-2017 at 09:14 PM.
Last edited by Spectre660 on 24-Jul-2017 at 09:13 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 22:25:41
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@eliyahu

Kind feel I'm being forced to buy things I don't won't. just to get Warp3D Nova package.
All the other stuff in package might depend on Radion drivers or Warp3D, but I don't need all the other stuff.

I'm also skeptical about fact that some of thing is kind replacing OS components, and but is not work as the original components, general bugs.

I'm also skeptical about writing software that support the Enchanter package, because not every one might have it installed.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jul-2017 at 10:28 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jul-2017 at 10:26 PM.

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lylehaze 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 23:04:24
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1108
From: On the Florida - Georgia border.

@Raziel

I understand your feelings, at least to a point.
But I can see the other side as well.

I have a micro-AOne. The graphics still work as thay always have.
I don't _need_ to buy new drivers, and there are no new drivers to buy, as far as I know.

On my newer X1000, I _could_ still run the graphics as they were delivered, on an HD4000.
Nobody has taken anything away from me.

But there's an option to get more performance than I could get before. _if_ I am willing to pay for a more advanced driver. This also opens the door for using a more modern card than the 4000 series.

And the advances don't stop there. "Southern Island" chipsets have been chosen as the target for even more features, even advancing into 3d stuff. If I want it, it is available, AT A COST.

None of the features of previous drivers have been shut off. Nobody has set off a code bomb to disable earlier versions of software. My HD4000 card still works just as well as it used to. My micro still works as well as it ever did, though that performance is pale in comparison to what my X1000 with a SI card can do.

Drivers are not easy. GOOD drivers are not easy. The graphics drivers we have available are really quite amazing in quality and capability, especially considering we are still ass-endian from the rest of the world.

I am damn grateful for the OPTION to buy more capable drivers. I choose to buy up on principle, even if my work never exceeds simple 2D stuff managed by intuition. I choose to because I want to support the future of our small platform.

And as soon as I have a bit of discretionary funds, I'll upgrade again. This stuff is too important not to.

Financing drivers of this quality, from such a small user base, benefits from us at least recognizing the value being created, even if we decide not to participate.

Just my opinion, probably not worth much.

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TrevorDick 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 23:38:54
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2004
Posts: 2636
From: Wellington

@lylehaze

Thanks Lyle,

Just to clarify a few points.

1. The Enhancer Software package is an A-EON Technology product as are all the RadeonHD and Warp3D-SI, and Warp3D Nova and related future AmigaOS graphics developments.

2. If you don't have an RadeonHD 7xxx card or newer you don't need Warp3D-SI or Nova (although you will miss out on the future benefits).

3. All RadeonHD update have been supplied free of charge up to v2.10. If you don't have Nova you do not really need RadeonHD updates past v2.10 as most updates are related to Nova compatibility and you can't take advantage of them if you don't have Nova.

4. Hans de Ruiter is under almost full time contract to A-EON to continuously work on and develop the AmigaOS graphics system. All Nova and related graphics updates are a continuously funded by A-EON.

5. The Enhancer software packs contains much more that the Nova Graphics package. 3 free ESP update have been released in the past year, each of which contain a lot of new features and updates.

6.Software development is not free, developers need to be paid.

7. If there are any cows being milked put a bell around my neck and call me Bessie ..... Mooo

TrevorD

PS you can ignore point 7.

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tonyw 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 23:50:00
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3105
From: Sydney (of course)

@Raziel

So, to sum it up, you've got what you paid for. It still works and it won't stop working.

There are new features available in newer releases if you are prepared to pay for them. They are not available for free.

I don't see what you are complaining about.

_________________
cheers
tony

Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php

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iggy 
Re: Radeon driver/Enhancer payment/update policy
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 1:00:29
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Raziel


Quote:
I fear that you have understand the post quite correctly. They found their cow and now they are going to milk it until it's dry


At first, I thought your post was rather rude.
And in tone it was, but seeing Trevor's response, I'm not sure it wasn't warranted.

And this has to be the first time I've seen a public statement from Trevor that made me feel like doing a face palm.

So, how many times DO all of you think you should pay for the same package?
Standard, deluxe, and now the buyer proclaimed eventual 'ultimate'.

Look the reason this entire project exists is Hyperion driver support for video cards sucks.
And their pace of development is glacial.
Ask ANYONE that received a Radeon HD 4650 with their X1000 if they are happy with the driver.
I know my friend AmigaDave, a BIG supporter of Aeon (and MorphOS for that matter) has complained about this driver in private since his system was delivered (and may take umbrage with me for bringing it up in public, but it is what it is).
And now GCN cards are the default for the X5000, so you have to have Han's software to properly use the HD 7750 or R7 250 supplied with your system.
Luckily Aeon and its vendors have stepped up and are supplying the package with the X5000 system they are selling.

Anyone else that wants to use these cards, you're just going to have to pay because the software needed to fully utilize these cards isn't being provided by the OS vendor (and it isn't going to be provided by the vendor card manufacturer).

I do believe that being asked to pay for these driver more than once is extremely unprofessional, and I can't think of any other market where this has ever occurred.

Further, at the potential risk of creating ill will between Aeon and the MorphOS development team, I can state for certain that once drivers are created for higher end video cards for that OS (including the eventual introduction of GCN drivers) you will NOT be asked to pay for them separately from the operating system.

Then again, to the best of my knowledge, X5000 owner aren't being asked to pay for this capability either.
AND Trevor is right that buyers of those systems ARE getting a full package of software beyond just the drivers, including a completely new Open GL implementation.
Further, Trevor IS right that Hans has to be paid, and that he has picked up the ticket on multiple items in the past (including absorbing the elevated pricing of the final batches of PA6T processor used in the last X1000s).

So, maybe buyer of this package SHOULD receive upgrades without qualifiers, BUT, I do understand why this software isn't free.

Last edited by iggy on 25-Jul-2017 at 01:02 AM.

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