@MikeBin

Quote:

It's harder to get rid of the console the more money you got invested into the platform with game and accessory purchases Not just the ones which have horror stories to tell, but everyone who thinks they were misled by Microsoft regarding the reliability of the console.

Nice thought and completely disagree with you. Companies shouldn't be held hostage because some one has a bug in their butt that their unit might perhaps fail. Companies should be held liable if there's a problem and Micrsoft has rightly so extended their commitment. No electonics company offers unlimited, no questions asked returns and they shouldn't. What would happen under your plan in 10 years everyone just decides to make Microsoft buy their console because it may fail in year 11?

Micrsoft was right to extend warranties and should find and eliminate the 3 ring issue or at least get it into industry accepted norms. What I'd like to see is Microsoft come out with some #s on say rates in 2005, 2006, 2007 and let us see if their % return/repaired are improving. If they are then continue on. (of course I wouldn't expect certain people to believe them no matter what.)

@BrianK

Quote:

This still begs the questions though if he didn't do anything inappropriate

According to the interview he didn't and he seems to be a huge fan of the games, so it seems unlikely he wants to be many months without a console and takes reasonable care of the device.

Quote:

Good question depending on the source up to 70% of new systems do not have overheating issues.

Even assuming that over the years, failure rates stay constant at 33% per year for new units, well over 85% of the consoles would have died at least once within a 5 year period. IMO this is unacceptable. The problems may however get worse over the years (due to wearing or more demanding games), but some consoles may never die simply because they aren't being played enough. I know someone who hasn't played with her Xbox 360 for months.

Survey results are getting worse:

Live Stats & Results

Quote:

Quote: Of the 5626 submissions: 1950 (34.66%) say they have NOT had a console fail 2320 (41.24%) say they've had one console fail 1356 (24.10%) say they've had more than one console fail Overall 3676 (65.34%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure 2251 (40.01%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06 Of these 2251 submissions: 1636 (72.68%) claim their Xbox 360 broke 615 (27.32%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong The 3676 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6088 broken Xbox 360s Survey stats are getting worse, it may attract people with problems, but if those who already submitted their entry would be able to change their vote once they do experience problems the results may even be worse. Of the 5966 submissions: 2027 (33.98%) say they have NOT had a console fail 2482 (41.60%) say they've had one console fail 1457 (24.42%) say they've had more than one console fail Overall 3939 (66.02%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure 2388 (40.03%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06 Of these 2388 submissions: 1747 (73.16%) claim their Xbox 360 broke 641 (26.84%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong The 3939 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6505 broken Xbox 360s

Of the 6297 submissions:
2097 (33.30%) say they have NOT had a console fail
2649 (42.07%) say they've had one console fail
1551 (24.63%) say they've had more than one console fail

Overall 4200 (66.70%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure

2496 (39.64%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06
Of these 2496 submissions:
1838 (73.64%) claim their Xbox 360 broke
658 (26.36%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong

The 4200 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6916 broken Xbox 360s

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 10:17 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 09:45 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 09:44 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2007 at 09:41 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Certainly disc read errors are quite common, probably even more so than was the case with the PS2 and isn't covered by extended warranty:

Going back to analyzing the issues, here is what I currently guess is going on with the DVD drive:

There seems to be two separate issues. Possible disc scratching when moving the console has been documented as at least some the drives don't have padding to protect against that sort of thing - that is certainly a mechanical thing that should be fixed and may differ from Xbox 360 revision to another. In the up-right position the console may be more susceptible to this, I don't know.

The other thing are these drive failures that seem to creep up people in time and may also result in the ring of death eventually - those would seem, just a guess, to be related to the GPU overheating (for which the motherboard warping etc. are to blame also usually, I guess). The GPU is located beneath the DVD drive and overheating there might eventually ruin the DVD drive as well.

Microsoft probably shouldn't have placed that GPU under the DVD drive, instead the right side of the console should have been dedicated to CPU/GPU and their heat control while the DVD drive would have been on the left side without any major heat producers under it... Just a guess again, but with what we know this would seem to make sense.

I'm no expert of course.

@MikeB

Quote:

Just underlining I am not standing alone with regard to my perspectives:

I can see that, but it would be so much more beneficial when you go to such lengths to gather information on this matter to provide a balanced outlook on the different facets of this issue and the public reaction instead of just trying to strengthen your point of view/agenda.

This is an interesting, topical and relevant topic (well, maybe not relevant at AW.net but still). It deserves inspection for sure. But if you are really roaming those forums and comments threads, try to provide a wider perspective.

I could of course counter by providing examples of my own, but I'd personally prefer to stick to discussing mostly the facts/speculation about facts in this case instead of user reaction (although the latter is interesting and relevant too), so I haven't really collected any comments - even though I have read many, many threads in the past days with overwhelming amount of positive comments too.

@jtsiren

Quote:

There seems to be two separate issues. Possible disc scratching when moving the console has been documented as at least some the drives don't have padding to protect against that sort of thing - that is certainly a mechanical thing that should be fixed and may differ from Xbox 360 revision to another. In the up-right position the console may be more susceptible to this, I don't know.

Like protection agencies and user reports pointed out disc scratching also happen in some cases without moving the console at all. There are two different kinds of disc scratching, one produces smaller scratches destroying the disc over time and the other is a carved circle destroying the disc instantly.

From Wikipedia:

"During this first test, the Xbox's Kassa tested (with TSST drives) could only be made to reproduce the problem by moving the Xbox 360 during the playing of a disk.[25] So Kassa's conclusion was that either not all Xbox 360s without protective pads would spontaneously scratch disks, or that the complaints were from Xbox 360 users who had moved their Xbox during use, or who used an unstable setup.

Two months later the program had received another 1000 complaints, with many customers denying the Xbox had moved when the scratching occurred, or was not placed stable,[26] while Microsoft was still denying the problems, and refusing to replace affected Xboxes. So Kassa decided to do several tests with multiple stably placed and untouched Xbox 360s from customers who claimed their Xbox had the problem.

These studies were designed to show conclusively whether or not the problem of spontaneous scratching DVDs was real."

"The results of the test were that even under "laboratory conditions," one of the nine tested Xbox 360s had spontaneously scratched a disk after five hours of gaming. It was apparent that the problem worsened when the Xbox was standing upright, and that when tested under more normal conditions (using a non "laboratory", but stable setup, and guaranteed without touching the Xbox) the problems worsened even further. After five hours playing, of the nine thusly tested Xboxes, three had significantly scratched their games disk."

Quote:

The other thing are these drive failures that seem to creep up people in time and may also result in the ring of death eventually - those would seem, just a guess, to be related to the GPU overheating (for which the motherboard warping etc. are to blame also usually, I guess). The GPU is located beneath the DVD drive and overheating there might eventually ruin the DVD drive as well.

- Also according to many reports the disc tray is also often providing problems.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oCvUY1GFXPE

- Not Recognizing Discs
"Many Xbox users have reported that their consoles will not recognize discs. When booted up the system will enter the Xbox Dashboard and at disc operations space it will report "Open Tray". If a game is inserted or not it will try to read then report "Open tray" again."

The European Commission asked Microsoft to recall and fix the 2 million affected units in Europe, but Microsoft after first denying the problem, then aknowledging the problem in response to tests is now again denying the problem blaming everything solely on consumers.

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 10:27 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 10:25 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 09:56 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 09:54 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I can see that, but it would be so much more beneficial when you go to such lengths to gather information on this matter to provide a balanced outlook on the different facets of this issue and the public reaction instead of just trying to strengthen your point of view/agenda.

Read those threads yourself, the majority of shared views are negative stating the 3 year Red Ring of Death warranty is only a step in the right direction.

IMO those who share their valid concern and criticism are more credible than the few shouting their praises. All these people bought a XBox 360 console, so they were open minded, IMO the few fanboys trying to attack or discredit concerns and shout their praises their statements aren't worth much, they simply are XBox or Microsoft fanboys and their stance is rigid nomatter what happens.

Quote:

even though I have read many, many threads in the past days with overwhelming amount of positive comments too

There are rumours that Microsoft is following a viral marketing strategy with regard to the extended warranty, signing up hundreds of accounts the past couple of months on message boards to steer discussions towards their prefered direction.

@MikeB

Quote:

There are rumours that Microsoft is following a viral marketing strategy with regard to the extended warranty, signing up hundreds of accounts the past couple of months on message boards to steer discussions towards their prefered direction.

You are confusing this with Sony and the Blu-ray people... Hydra anyone?

Having said that, I wouldn't know anything one way or the other about the truthfulness of such rumors. It might be, it might not be, but the amount of posting I've seen, also in other languages than English would suggest that Microsoft was successful in making a bold, big move that got positive attention from many Xbox 360 owners.

I doubt anybody is disputing the fact that people regard this only as the first step - I do too! But the selection of quotes you made doesn't IMHO represent the total picture of what is getting posted out there and I just wanted to mention this. Many people think Microsoft is now on the right track, whether or not they stay on that right track of course remains very much to be seen.

@MikeB

Quote:

It was apparent that the problem worsened when the Xbox was standing upright, and that when tested under more normal conditions (using a non "laboratory", but stable setup, and guaranteed without touching the Xbox) the problems worsened even further. After five hours playing, of the nine thusly tested Xboxes, three had significantly scratched their games disk."

If it happens after hours of play, couldn't it possibly be heat related? Who knows what happens to the DVD drive if it heats too much from below... Maybe the disc begins to move erratically or something due to this overheating?

I acknowledge the missing protection pads that have especially caused problems when moving the console. One guy wrote a good online article about this and even showed and tested where to add the pads to fix the issue of moving console causing scratching - it was well documented with pictures and made perfect sense to me as to where THAT problem was, and obviously it can be avoided by not moving the console while playing.

The other issue is of course more serious...

I am just trying to understand the issues and speculate on their source. I'm not trying to dispute or disregard them in any way.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 10:44 AM.

Smarthouse:

Quote:

In Australia Microsoft refused to return calls on the issue and their PR Company even went as far as saying that there was no problem and that SmartHouse was exaggerating. So we decided to contact retailers selling the Xbox 360. They reported massive problems with the console with several claiming that the return rate was over 30% As an example the Sony PS2 had a return rate of between 1 & 2% The PS 3 which has only been in the market for 6 months is less than 1%.

So much for XBox 360 fans FUDding the PS2 (and PS3 initially).

Quote:

Asian manufacturers of the Xbox 360 who have been pressured by Microsoft to lower costs by as much as 15% say that the problem is caused by poor Microsoft design and the Company buying low cost components

Quote:

One Asian manufacturer that SmartHouse spoke to on Friday said "Microsoft have known of this problem for a long time. They are trying to blame component manufacturers but it was a combination of bad design and them (Microsoft) wanting everything cheap.

Quote:

A lot of manufacturers were pushed to deliver components without much testing of the components working together inside the console

Am I the only one why rather have a more expensive sturdy XBox 360?

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 12:27 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Read those threads yourself, the majority of shared views are negative stating the 3 year Red Ring of Death warranty is only a step in the right direction.

Knowing many people personality who have 360s and getting input from them directly which is more expansive then what an unscientific survey can protray you conclusion is wrong. The majority of people are worried that their 360 might break and their worries were lessened with the extension to a 3 year warranty. Though yes all want the problem fixed once and for all. First, like anyone they don't want their stuff to break. Second, they believe the 360 to be the best option of this generation for gaming and know that some people's fear of reliability will end up causing them to miss out on some great games.

Last edited by BrianK on 08-Jul-2007 at 01:22 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

As an example the Sony PS2 had a return rate of between 1 & 2%

What the return rate of PS2s is off as a judgement of broken consoles. Consumers out of warranty with breaks are more likely to throw out and buy a new console. So the return rate for repairs is definitely a low estimate of broken PS2s. In addition a PS2 that cannot play a PS2 game is broken and therefore 100% of consoles made since 2005, V14 and up, are broken. Sony refuses to take returns on the issue. In the past there have been people that questioned this so here'sSony's list. There's also the PS2 power adapter issue which isn't considered a return as they sent a power supply and you threw out the old one. Sorry but this return rate of 2% is low compared to the actual % of consoles with issues. The software list and the power supply issues had to be pushed from us consumers -- the problem of manufactures lack of proactivity on issues is industry wide.

Sorry you side stepped off the 360 thread but this needed to be answered so you understand the PS2 issues are wider then what a return rate conveys. Now back to the 360...

@MikeB

Quote:

As an example the Sony PS2 had a return rate of between 1 & 2% The PS 3 which has only been in the market for 6 months is less than 1%.

Quote:

So much for XBox 360 fans FUDding the PS2 (and PS3 initially).

The PS2 suffered from laser issue mostly since launch towards spring 2003. A similar timespan BTW than for Xbox 360 from launch till pretty much now. Whether or not that number is representative or correct, clearly the problem was initially far bigger than we can say now after six, seven years. I doubt Xbox 360 will have a 33% failure rate come 2011... Some say the laser issues were never fully resolved so a common suggestion still is that PS2 not be used for DVD playing too much because it wears out the console sooner... I have never heeded to that recommendation, but I do see the recommendation often in PS2 forums. The issues, the class-action lawsuit and the fact that many people have over the years purchased number of PS2 consoles after they've broken is real. Does it make the PS2 overall a quality failure? In my opinion, of course not - but initially there was this very serious problem with the laser wearing out sooner than it should have (hence e.g. the lawsuit).

Just like there is a huge amount of cooling solutions etc. emerging for Xbox 360 because of its issues, a simple Google will find huge amounts of replacement lasers, laser cleaning solutions etc. for PS2 simply because the issues have been real and there is a market for solutions since Sony never really got around to fully resolving it.

Here is a description of the lawsuit prior to the consumer group winning it:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/playstation.html

Quote:

Despite numerous consumer complaints, the company claims it's an insolated problem. "I have spoken to numerous people who have called Sony about this -- mind you, which isn't caused by normal wear and tear or misuse of the system -- and Sony still refuses to confirm that this is a mistake within the system," said Andrew of Warren, PA in his report to ConsumerAffairs.Com. The suit charges that PlayStation 2 is not a reliable DVD player and that playing certain DVDs can shut down the unit. Sony denies deceiving consumers. Sony is fighting the suit and contends the problem is not caused by the unit's design or by Sony's manufacturing process. It blames dust particles, dirt, fingerprints and scratches on the discs for the problems.

The comments here sound very similar to what MikeB has quoted here Re: the Xbox 360:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_electronics/sony_play.html

An Amazon guide here comments:

Quote:

The biggest problem is the laser eventually, over a long period of time, becomes unable to read discs and displays “Disc Read Error” on the screen. This problem is especially prominent in older versions of PS2.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/2L20PG9M7HNNY

There was even a petition for Sony to fix this:

http://www.petitiononline.com/ps2dre/petition.html

Something strange about that laser assembly in PS2, I never read enough into to it to describe it here, but anyone who owned PS2 for years (like I did and many others here) knows about these. You weren't there and you are now retroactively looking for links and comments to support your point of view, but that doesn't change what happened over the years. And hey, we were/are PS2 fans! I still think it was a great accomplishment for Sony, even if it was the least powerful of its generation. I still have a PS2 but I don't have any other last-gen consoles, those are sold.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 06:37 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 06:33 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 06:31 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 06:29 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Here is a description of the lawsuit prior to the consumer group winning it

I think Sony actually settled the dispute:

"Now a settlement has been reached which would give consumers who have recently bought, repaired or lost a PS2 with one of the specified model numbers a cheque for USD 25, a free PS2 game from a defined list, or a free or cut-price repair or replacement of their console - at SCEA's discretion."

@MikeB

Quote:

I think Sony actually settled the dispute: "Now a settlement has been reached which would give consumers who have recently bought, repaired or lost a PS2 with one of the specified model numbers a cheque for USD 25, a free PS2 game from a defined list, or a free or cut-price repair or replacement of their console - at SCEA's discretion."

Totally unacceptable. They should buy back my PS2, periphals, and all my games at my discreation even if I haven't needed the fix having that model # should be good enough.

@Thread
If you want to read the text of the Microsoft comments on the Red Ring issue here's a transcription
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/06/microsofts-red-ring-warranty-conference-call-transcribed/

A quicky summary is that Microsoft believes the causes to be multiple issues and have wrapped their engineering around them and has a fix to greatly reduce if not eliminate the current issues. At this point it's really TIME. Apply the fixes and let's see the impact. It'd be nice if Microsoft published some sort of impact % such as repaired consoles w/o the fixes VS repaired consoles with the fixes. That would show us how the situation is, or isn't, improving. Of course there will always be the haters which no matter what is done it won't be good enough.

Last edited by BrianK on 08-Jul-2007 at 07:04 PM.

@BrianK

The PS2 DVD problems were entirely fixable. IMO the XBox 360 problems according to manufacturers are due to bad design and cheap components:

Interestingly thousands of people are calling for a recall:
http://www.petitiononline.com/360recal/

So, maybe a refund option may not be a bad idea?

@MikeB

Quote:

Interestingly thousands of people are calling for a recall: http://www.petitiononline.com/360recal/

Hey that's less signatures than the PS2 petition got...

Quote:

The PS2 DVD problems were entirely fixable.

I'm not 100% sure that is the case. People going through several PS2's and the market for laser replacements doesn't really confirm that, quite the contrary. (OTOH, who is to say the Xbox 360 issues won't be fixable - at least in time?)

There continue to be reports of laser failures on PS2, it is just that the problem has been lessened to such that it is more of an annoyance these days, but it has affected the PS2 market profoundly. I'm actually quite surprised you hadn't heard of these issues. I'm not saying the PS2 issues is bigger than the Xbox 360 issue (I think the Xbox 360 issue is at the very least more pressing and complex), just that it was very similar and that's the reason people have felt as they have about Sony quality. Like people will feel bad about Microsoft console quality for time to come even long after this has been sorted out... It takes time to heal, good for Sony that PS3 seems to be on a good track of remedying their rep quality-wise - kudos for that of course!

The PS2 issues weren't just the ramblings and trolling of Xbox 360 fanboys like you seem to suggest - and this is why people have said and felt they way they have about Sony. It is not like Sony handled their similar woes with PS2 all that gracefully either, so there are a lot of people still sour about that. This is just the point I want to make and please then lets try to move on, this is in no way diminishing the Xbox 360 problem and two wrongs don't make a right so I continue to hold Microsoft fully responsible for their failings and am awaiting for them to fix it for good.

While we're at the subject of online petitions, why not go sign Seehund's y'all?

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 08:12 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 08:10 PM.

@jtsiren

I've read up on the PS2 DVD issue. Repair centers repair it for around 50 USD, alternatively you can read one of the many do-it-yourself guides on the internet. But very often only the lens needs to be cleaned.

@MikeB

Quote:

The PS2 DVD problems were entirely fixable. IMO the XBox 360 problems according to manufacturers are due to bad design and cheap components:

It seems you think the DVD is the only PS2 issue. If so you need to read more on PS2 issues. BTW I sold Big Mutha Truckers because my new thin line failed to play it. So yes PS2 still has issues with incompatibility and is broken the fix as you say isn't to sell the game but fix the console. Let's get the thread back on track.

Now back to the 360...According to the transcription I posted Microsoft stated that serveral things are needed and feel they have a handle on it. I say let them fix it and let's see what the results are. Everyone now has a 3 year warranty if they can't improve the situtation with repairs and fixes before Christmas then I might be open to a full refund as you suggest. We don't see other companies doing full refunds with their issues so I disagree Microsoft should, to progress your thought, give everyone their money back and pull out of the market. That definitely ain't gonna happen.

@MikeB

Quote:

I've read up on the PS2 DVD issue.

Fair enough. I have nothing more on this subject - our differences in point of view seem well-enough documented to leave it at that. This thread should be about the Xbox 360 anyway.

I'll sign off for the night with the hope that neither my PS2, PS3 or Xbox 360 break anytime soon.

@MikeB

Quote:

So much for XBox 360 fans FUDding the PS2 (and PS3 initially).

Muh, no matter what people say, you'll stick to your views. Whatever.

The only PS2 owner I know that has not gone through multiple PS2s has not done so because I replaced the head of his DVD drive with a new one. Every other owner I know has had at least 2, all of them breaking out of warranty. There are even mods built to protect the head against a *known* hardware bug of the PS2.

Why am I saying that? Well, simply because your antics here are so transparent it isn't funny. Yes, it turned out that the 360 is screwed, I think we've all agreed on this but you seem to have double standards, since you are ignoring previous problems faced by other companies just because facing them would go against your established (by rather large nails) views.

Whole point is: MS has screwed up. MS has screwed up big time. MS has screwed up worse than Sony.

However, this does not mean that Sony has never screwed up in the past. and is also does not mean that no matter what happens MS cannot rectify the situation. They've taken the first step towards that direction, we'll see where it leads.

Last edited by AMiGR on 08-Jul-2007 at 11:15 PM.

_________________