@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: Again how much does this matter? Quite simple, Bungie is owned by Microsoft and has a huge development budget and probably more development time than other currently available XBox 360 or PS3 game. Yet the game is rendering at a resolution than advertised 720p (@ 30 FPS) and provides no AA (which is often claimed to be free, on the XBox 360!). This is no half-assed low budget 3rd party project, neither is the game being ported from another original target platform. Bungie should have been able to push the XBox 360 to the max, yet it IMO Bungie didn't. I wonder what the real reasons for this is, maybe higher res textures would exceed the storage limitation of DVD, maybe considering the popularity of the game there were fears of mass RRoD incidents or maybe something else. But the topic is interesting from a technical standpoint.

Here is the explanation from Bungie:

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You Owe me 80p! One item making the interwebs rounds this week was the scandalous revelation that Halo 3 runs at “640p” which isn’t even technically a resolution. However, the interweb detectives did notice that Halo 3’s vertical resolution, when captured from a frame buffer, is indeed 640 pixels. So what gives? Did we short change you 80 pixels? Naturally it’s more complicated than that. In fact, you could argue we gave you 1280 pixels of vertical resolution, since Halo 3 uses not one, but two frame buffers – both of which render at 1152x640 pixels. The reason we chose this slightly unorthodox resolution and this very complex use of two buffers is simple enough to see – lighting. We wanted to preserve as much dynamic range as possible – so we use one for the high dynamic range and one for the low dynamic range values. Both are combined to create the finished on screen image. This ability to display a full range of HDR, combined with our advanced lighting, material and postprocessing engine, gives our scenes, large and small, a compelling, convincing and ultimately “real” feeling, and at a steady and smooth frame rate, which in the end was far more important to us than the ability to display a few extra pixels. Making this decision simpler still is the fact that the 360 scales the “almost-720p” image effortlessly all the way up to 1080p if you so desire. In fact, if you do a comparison shot between the native 1152x640 image and the scaled 1280x720, it’s practically impossible to discern the difference. We would ignore it entirely were it not for the internet’s propensity for drama where none exists. In fact the reason we haven’t mentioned this before in weekly updates, is the simple fact that it would have distracted conversation away from more important aspects of the game, and given tinfoil hats some new gristle to chew on as they catalogued their toenail clippings.

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=12821

To come back on "how much does this matter". Well, it might be that few people will notice the frame buffer resolution is different from the displayed resolution, but one could wonder how much further the 360 can be pushed. It looks like it's not that "easy" to do another step up like Gears did.

I would say that judging from the recent games (Warhawk, Lair, Heavenly Sword), people are saying the PS3 is on the same level or slightly above the 360 from a technical point of view. Sure a game is more than just the GFX, but there is a heated debate on which of the two is the strongest (and not just between you and me Brian ).

It seems that the 65nm CPUs are already starting to appear in Halo 3 Special Edition Xbox 360's, also the GPU seems to be smaller, at least its memory die is suggesting something has been optimized there as well. There is also a heat sink and a 30% reduction in power usage. Scroll down here:

http://www.xbox-scene.com/

Someone already reported RRoD on a Halo 3 Special Edition Xbox 360:

http://www.n4g.com/xbox360/News-71365.aspx

However, this unit is manufactured 18.8.2007. The cut-off date for the 90nm/65nm transition by current accounts seems to be 24.8.2007 (lot number 734 onwards - unless the lot number sticker on the box is covered by another sticker in which case the lot number may not be accurate), so it seems that RRoD'd machine still sports the older Zephyr motherboard and 90nm chips.

Most Halo 3 Special Edition Xbox 360s apparently still run 90nm. I took a quick look around my home town and lot numbers for these were below 734, so no luck yet - I'm pretty sure all those were 90nm. I am actually interested in getting one of these 65nm Halo 3 SE's, they look nice to my eyes and the new quieter DVD drives and HDMI coupled with the 65nm improvements would be enough for me to upgrade my launch-day model.

Edit: Fixed dates - 7s and 8s were swapped.

Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Oct-2007 at 07:03 PM.

@MikeB

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This is no half-assed low budget 3rd party project, neither is the game being ported from another original target platform. Bungie should have been able to push the XBox 360 to the max, yet it IMO Bungie didn't. I wonder what the real reasons for this is, maybe higher res textures would exceed the storage limitation of DVD, maybe considering the popularity of the game there were fears of mass RRoD incidents or maybe something else. But the topic is interesting from a technical standpoint

Seems to me we agree the topic is interesting on an academic level.

Bungie has said all along that they're not going to push the 360 to the max this is nothing new, well except for the people that hadn't been following Bungie's statements before launch. Games are always trade-offs of developer time + quality + marketability. The question remains had they rendered slightly higher at 720p would it have costed them extra time and $$? If so would the benefit have been seen by more gamers buying Halo3? Probably not. Bungie like any other company wants to maximize profits so perhaps that time and cash were better spent in other areas.

@jtsiren

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jtsiren wrote: However, this unit is manufactured 18.7.2008. The cut-off date for the 90nm/65nm transition by current accounts seems to be 24.7.2008 (lot number 734 onwards - unless the lot number sticker on the box is covered by another sticker in which case the lot number may not be accurate), so it seems that RRoD'd machine still sports the older Zephyr motherboard and 90nm chips.

So your 360 was manufactured in the future?

ChartTrack reported intersing facts (via Kotaku):
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The PS3 had a big launch in the UK. Sold in big numbers, (so many it's neck-and-neck with the 360 for overall sales this calendar year), surprised a lot of people. Since then, though, it hasn't been doing too well. Not too well at all. It's a bit hard to say just how its done without cold, hard numbers (ChartTrack keep those to themselves), but they have divulged that 55% of all PS3 sales in the country were made within four days of the console's launch. Which was in March. It's now October. That leaves a whole lot of days without a whole lot of PS3 sales.

Again, I point to the hardcore gamer's demand already fulfilled. Nintendo's hardware continues to attract the casual gamer, emphasizing how important it is to make a profit on software and hardware.

I think it's the quality of the 360's lineup that continues to sway gamers who are on the fence. This is ensuring continued steady sales. The launch hype in Europe for the PS3 has come and gone, but the software has always lagged. Heavenly Sword can only move so many units... Lair fell flat on it's face. Hope remains for MSG4. My prediction is that 1 month after MSG4 launches, a 360 version will be announced. It might be on 4 discs...but who cares about that really.

...
I, as of right now, am a fan of Bungie.... Or atleast HALO 3 and one of it's developers.
http://www.bungie.net/Inside/MeetTheTeam.aspx?Person=arroyo
The guy owns a modified '87 Fiero GT. We have something in common. Also, according to the "behind the scenes" stuff on the game, the sound of the Mongoose was made from a moped and the exhaust from a Fiero GT.
Fieros FTW!!!

Last edited by Lou on 01-Oct-2007 at 05:38 PM.

@Lou

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The launch hype in Europe for the PS3 has come and gone, but the software has always lagged.

It was just announced the PS3 is selling faster at a higher entry price in France than the PS2 did. Not bad!

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Heavenly Sword can only move so many units... Lair fell flat on it's face.

Impressive conclusion, considering Lair hasn't even been released in Europe yet and according to VGChartz its first week sales in the US have outperfomed both Heavenly Sword and Warhawk, although the latter one is also being sold cheaper but without a Bluetooth headset through the PSN.

I guess people wanted to experienve something fresh and dragons are kind of in, maybe due to movies like Eragon and Lords of the Ring.

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Hope remains for MSG4. My prediction is that 1 month after MSG4 launches, a 360 version will be announced. It might be on 4 discs...but who cares about that really

Not just MG4, for the short run people are awaiting PS3 exclusives like Ratchet and Clank Future, Singstar, Uncharted. Haze, UT3 and various PlayStation Eye games. Personally I am also looking forward to a cute PSN game called Snakeball and WipeOut HD, which both look like good fun.

For next year there are just too many high profile PS3 games to name them all here, but obviously Gran Turismo 5, Final Fantasy XIII, Killzone 2 and Metal Gear Solid 4 will be some of the PS3's most important exclusives next year. And it will be interesting to see how people will react to Home and LittleBigPlanet.

I think PS3 sales in Japan will skyrocket in 2008. With heavy hitting games like Gran Turismo 5, Final Fantasy XIII (& Versus XIII), Monster Hunter 3, White Knight Story, Metal Gear Solid 4 as well as other popular games like Biohazard 5 (Resident Evil 5), The Last Remnant, Shin Sangoku Musou 5 (Dynasty Warriors 6) and Devil May Cry 4 all becoming available, I think my positive longterm outlook for Japan is justified.

As much as you claim the PS3 needs exclusively MGS4, the Wii really needs Mario Galaxy, Wii sales have dropped at a constant rate for many weeks now.

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Oct-2007 at 06:03 PM.

@Lou

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So your 360 was manufactured in the future?

Sorry, my mistake - now fixed, my month and year had swapped 7s and 8s... The RRoD'd machine according to images was built 18.8.2007 and the date from which onwards 65nm seems to be used is 24.8.2007.

And no it wasn't my Xbox, it was the one which RRoDd. As everyone knows, my launch-day Xbox 360 is still running strong. (Knock, knock...)

@MikeB

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As much as you claim the PS3 needs exclusively MGS4, the Wii really needs Mario Galaxy, Wii sales have dropped at a constant rate for many weeks now.

All of the three need the software and the exclusives. Clearly the technology isn't dictating this round. Xbox 360 is doing strong because it has the software, not because it is inherently better (it is that software that allows it to get away with the quality disaster too).

I guess what really remains to be seen is what the technological difference between PS3 and Xbox 360 really amounts to be. I am hesitant to use Halo 3 is a benchmark, any number of reasons could have affected that, but I certainly agree PS3 is showing improvement over launch as predicted.

As always, awaiting for the results with open mind and two consoles waiting for content. May the best system win.

@jtsiren

I too and others I know have launch 360s going strong. The spring on my USB door won't spring anymore but obviously not anything stopping the show. I gave MikeB permission to count mine as broken

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All of the three need the software and the exclusives. Clearly the technology isn't dictating this round. Xbox 360 is doing strong because it has the software, not because it is inherently better (it is that software that allows it to get away with the quality disaster too).

Not only do consoles need exclusive they need attractive exclusives. The 360 and PS3 are so close I think this generation we'll see more cross platform titles and those players interested in both may default to the 360 due to pricing concerns. I think as the warranty was increased and as newer models appear to be more reliable it'll persuade a few others to go to the 360 camp over the PS3 camp.

Once we see some of the big named Sony titles return - MGS4 / Gran Turismo / Final Fanatasy likely those fans will be picking up the PS3. With the coming of Ninja Gaiden 2/ Fable 2/ Lost Odyssey/ Halo Wars/ Splinter Cell 5 the 360 will not be resting in 2008 either. I predicted Chrismas of 2008 is when the PS3 will finally pull ahead of the 360 we'll see if it can.

What some people don't get is Microsoft's job this generation was not to be #1. Their job was to own a greater % of the marketshare and get out of the distant third place into a more secure position. That position could be 3rd but at a much larger marketshare and Microsoft will count this as a victory. But coming in a 2nd would indeed be impressive.

When one comes from dead last it's easy to gain there's lots of head room. When coming from a highly secure first it's easy to room there's lots of room to fall to. That's exactly what has happened. We already know Microsoft is seeing the 360 as a win in the direction they wanted. They have already stated they will be making a 3rd console. Halo will be back as there are rumblings of Halo4, which looks to be a prequel. With having the top more selling game in 1 day Bungie would be stupid to not make a Halo4 that's like printing free money.

@BrianK

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What some people don't get is Microsoft's job this generation was not to be #1. Their job was to own a greater % of the marketshare and get out of the distant third place into a more secure position. That position could be 3rd but at a much larger marketshare and Microsoft will count this as a victory. But coming in a 2nd would indeed be impressive.

Agreed. I finally had the time during summer to read the whole Dean Takahashi's book The Xbox 360 Uncloacked. An interesting story for sure, about the actual design and implementation of course, but also of the goals and challenges Microsoft faced (and still faces) with their console successor. Other than the quality issue, Microsoft has done well and I commend them for it. A fun box, as I said, it far succeeded my requirements of a fill-in-box-while-waiting-for-PS3. It still sees more action today. Actually, the PS3 hasn't seen any action other than firmware updates since spring I guess.

A sadder story for sure was my other summer book, Brian Bagnall's On the Edge - The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore. What a great read, but I was really bummed out after reading it. The last silly years in the Amiga land really had let me forget what a great force Commodore was compared to this we have here now... time to revisit the Deathbed Vigil one of these days, I guess, just to depress myself a little more...

Off-topic P.S.

Relatively nice speculation and reasoning for a $399 PS3:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=7826&start=0#end

Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Oct-2007 at 11:50 PM.

@jtsiren

VGChartz shows for the US
92,500 Wii down 1%
27,120 PS3 down 10%
103,530 360 UP 17%
PS2 outsold PS3 2:1

This means combine Sony's PS2 and PS3 were below the 360 in the US. So at least in the US we see the 360 gaining the week before Halo3. Surely they'll be up even more on launch week. It'll be interesting to see worldwide how this is stacking up. Perhaps the 360 isn't as dead as some were predicting.

@BrianK

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Perhaps the 360 isn't as dead as some were predicting.

What a silly prediction that was. None of the three consoles are dead or dying, it is still early days yet.

Xbox 360 seems to be getting a bit of PS2 effect too, people replacing all those broken consoles with seconds. (And no, of course the PS2 quality issues weren't as severe two years into service.)

@BrianK

I don't think the XBox 360 will get a significant bigger piece of the pie for the long run than they did with the original XBox. Of course the Pie is getting bigger, but the PS2 / PS3 and Wii will likely eat up the bulk of the pie, leaving the XBox 360 with leftovers.

mcvuk.com's current prediction based on Screen Digest data:

WORLD: INSTALLED BASE BY PLATFORM.......................

..................................2007............2009...........2011..
Sony Playstation 2.......112.6m.........119.9m........121.4m
Sony Playstation 3.......7.7m............38.7m..........67.5m
Nintendo Wii................17.1m...........41.9m..........59.4m
Microsoft Xbox 360......13.9m...........26.8m..........36.4m
Nintendo DS ...............60.5m...........99.3m..........142.9m
Sony PSP ...................29.8m...........51.7m..........74.1m

Source: Screen Digest....................................................
http://www.mcvuk.com/opinion/83/Screen-Digest-next-gen-analysis

Personally I think Nintendo will release an upscaling capable HD version of the Wii well before 2011, which could be considered to be a new platform (better CPU/GPU/more RAM/ etc). To me at least that would make sense.

Last edited by MikeB on 02-Oct-2007 at 02:20 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 02-Oct-2007 at 02:19 PM.

@MikeB

Easy to predict whatever we'll see how the future actually turns out.

Do you really see Sony keeping the PS2 in production until 2011?

Microsoft and Nintendo are undoubtably not counting the PS2 they are comparing 7th gen only. The PS2 is still selling but neither company is comparing their consoles to the 6th gen. I'd question if Sony is even doing your strange comparison if they were they'd see the PS3 as the least selling of the 4 and a money loser to their books so killing it would make Sony more profitable. Obviously they're not going to do that. At least Microsoft and Nintendo are only going to position their console based upon the current gen and, while you disagree, the PS2 is last gen, just last gen that's still selling well. Currently Microsoft sees they own 40% of the market a growth over the Xbox and at this time it's good enough that they've commited to a 8th gen console.

You can feel right in how you view the PS2 and it's market but unfortunately the majority of people don't view it your way and neither do the businesses. Even your favorite site VGChartz has been reducing PS2 reporting. For example http://www.vgchartz.com/news/news.php?id=541 is missing PS2 detailed reporting. They see 'In the Americas, a total of 14,196,081 current generation consoles (Wii, PS3, 360) have been sold. Of those, Xbox 360 accounts for 51.1%, Wii accounts for 34.5%, and PS3 accounts for 14.4%' -- so do Microsoft and Nintendo...

You can argue all you want that the PS2 should be included. But until you convince the industry and businesses you're going to be in a very small minority view.

@BrianK

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You can argue all you want that the PS2 should be included. But until you convince the industry and businesses you're going to be in a very small minority view.

The industry and Sony are counting the PS2 as a modern and relevant gaming platform. Microsoft may want to exclude the PS2 for PR reasons, last year when the XBox 360 was globally greatly outsold by the PS2 and both Nintendo Wii and PS3 were still unavailable, Microsoft claimed to be leading the gaming industry.

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Do you really see Sony keeping the PS2 in production until 2011?

No. But available stock may still be sold in the years prior to that.

@MikeB

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The industry and Sony are counting the PS2 as a modern and relevant gaming platform.

When I see the industry commenting on the console wars it's always a 7th Gen comparison. Nintendo appears to be, in your words, excluding the PS2. Recently when they talked about Japan their points were about how they were beating the other 7th gen consoles. The PS2 #s were on their chart but were completely not talked about. One of your favorite sites to quote http://www.vgchartz.com/ doesn't even include the PS2 on their main page. The recent Japanese equivalent to E3 Sony covered the PS3 with little mention of the PS2. The 7th gen wars do not include the PS2.

Now if you want to drop into an overall comparison the PS2 is likely included but then you pickup things such as GBA, DS and PSP at the same time. And heck even the gamecube is still selling.

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Microsoft claimed to be leading the gaming industry.

They were in a variety of ways at the time. Many of which have been overshadowed by the newer 7th gen consoles. For example the 360 owned some of the largest launches out of any console ever and since that time the Wii has beat them in those same countries. So on your desire to claim Microsoft claimed some victory that was never true we'd have to look at the quote and the data surrounding it. Because yes they have led the console industry in a variety of ways. I believe most online users, most hardware problems and largest game launch ever are ones they hold.

Last edited by BrianK on 02-Oct-2007 at 04:56 PM.

@BrianK

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When I see the industry commenting on the console wars it's always a 7th Gen comparison.

You are probably referring to some of the gaming press. VGChartz is just a community website run by people who work in the field and have an interest in collecting related data, they then share their findings.

PS2 data is often added afterwards, what's exactly the reason I don't know, but usually a couple of days afterwards the data is added.

@jtsiren

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65nm CPUs are already starting to appear in Halo 3 Special Edition Xbox 360's

For those cost trackers out there the original 90nm version was estimated to cost Microsoft $105 but with discounts past a certain level and where they are now it's estimated to be 40% less expensive. The 65nm part is estimated to be 50% less expensive, I'm assuming they mean off the original price.

Changes to the heatsink appear to be a copper pipe removed over the CPU and simplified heat sink design. These should be fine as the RRoD is caused by GPU and the 65nm CPU should be a bit cooler. So likely some $$ savings there. Springs added to the Xclamp should make them tighter but might cost a bit more $.

CPU and GPU are still glued on the corners to the motherboard.

Further confirming 65nm process was some missing capaciters and a measured drop in power usage.

The 65nm chipped Halo 3 console was built August 24, 2007 from team "FDOU" and part of lot 734 in case people are looking for them.

@MikeB

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..................................2007............2009...........2011.. Sony Playstation 2.......112.6m.........119.9m........121.4m Sony Playstation 3.......7.7m............38.7m..........67.5m Nintendo Wii................17.1m...........41.9m..........59.4m Microsoft Xbox 360......13.9m...........26.8m..........36.4m Nintendo DS ...............60.5m...........99.3m..........142.9m Sony PSP ...................29.8m...........51.7m..........74.1m

I think one things about these estimations that rings certain to me is that Xbox 360 won't continue to sell significant numbers beyond, say, 2010. The rumblings would seem to be that Microsoft will pursue a more aggressive upgrade cycle than Sony historically has.

This, if it happens, will bode interesting times for the console world. What if a singnificantly more powerful Xbox III hits the market 3-4 years into PS3's life, what would that do - or would it do anything to those PS3 projections? If we assume Xbox III hits the market in by 2010, it would historically mean that PS4 is 2-3 years down the road at that point... and when it comes out, Xbox IV would again be just a few years away.

If Sony sticks to its historical schedule of releasing new consoles every, what, 6-7 years, a major competitor with a schedule of 4-5 years between updates could be a disruptive force. Of course, who knows how the Xbox 360 quality woes and the needed technical expertise there have affected Microsoft's plans. Reading Takahashi's book, the Xbox 360 was a busy, busy project, so I'm sure Microsoft will need time for the next round unless they go for something very quick like Xbox I.

Time will tell what happens and does Microsoft pursue a more aggressive schedule and does Sony change their schedule... the talk about a ten year run doesn't seem to suggest that, but plans can always change.

Now, the above of course assumes technology matters. It does matter to hardcore gamers, but as Wii has so far suggested, and PS2s long run too (although that has more to do IMHO the market position it had gathered earlier in the race than just the longetivity of the box itself - Wii will also have to gather major momentum to keep running with its low-end box for long), it doesn't seem to matter to casual gamers.

If technology doesn't matter, then a competitor updating their system every few years wouldn't matter as much either, unless those upgrades bring in something significantly new like the Wii control mechanism etc... So Sony could well manage with a far slower release cycle than Microsoft. Then again, Sony might fall victim to the same disruptive change that they themselves brought on the Nintendos and Segas of yesteryear in the mid-90s.

Personally I'd be happy to upgrade my consoles every three years or so. PS2 was just getting too old for me, no matter how you slice it. Casual gamers will of course feel differently.

@jtsiren

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What if a singnificantly more powerful Xbox III hits the market 3-4 years into PS3's life

That would make sense, especially if the console would be Cell processor based. I wouldn't run out to buy one at launch, but if the console is more open, proven to be reliable and includes a Blu-Ray drive I may get one down the road.

However the PS3 will then probably have the advantage of being available at mass market pricing and tons of games available to show off its potential. Maybe even then there will be enough headroom left for PS3 developers to tap into and have XBox III and PS3 games about on par for a few years down the road.

@MikeB

Anything is possible. It also could be that a faster update pace is a liability for Xbox and slower upgrade cycle gathers more loyalty and momentum for PS3.

Just some options to ponder where these things might lead. Who knows.