@Lou

The problem I have with communicating with you is that you always show that you're Mr Know-Nothing-Nintendo-IS-GOD! and when someone destroys your little made up myth you start being all offensive and malicious...

@ thread

On the topic of mouse & keyboard support, Sony recently added support to the firmware to allow laptop to be used as mouse and keyboard on the PS3. Cool, I hope it's going to be universally supported. Me not being a Sony fanboy, I prefer not to buy a Sony laptop.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Simple 3D games have already been done on the PS3 and XBox 360 as well. For example last year's Invincible Tiger on the PSN or during last years holiday season release of James Cameron's Avatar: The Game on both the PS3 and XBox 360. You don't need the update for simpler games like that, just a proper display (and in the 360's case a model with HDMI, so no early models).

The Wii didn't need HDMI to do 3D...

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou The problem I have with communicating with you is that you always show that you're Mr Know-Nothing-Nintendo-IS-GOD! and when someone destroys your little made up myth you start being all offensive and malicious...

The problem I have with communicating with you is that you always show that you're Mr Know-Nothing-SONY-IS-GOD! and when someone destroys your little made up myth you start being all offensive and malicious...

@Lou

The XBox 360 outputs in high definition unlike the Wii (upscaled or not), this requires more bandwidth to the display, hence its requirement for Avatar. The PS3 HDMI output of course allows for more than twice as much bandwidth over HDMI than the 360 does.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou The XBox 360 outputs in high definition unlike the Wii (upscaled or not), this requires more bandwidth to the display, hence its requirement for Avatar. The PS3 HDMI output of course allows for more than twice as much bandwidth over HDMI than the 360 does.

I am talking about games Mike. Everyone and even my mother knows the Wii can't play movies...legally...except via Netflix. That said, Wii doesn't have framerate issues @ 480p.

@Lou

I was also talking about games. Wii games don't output in high definition, 360 games do. Hence more bandwidth is required. The Blu-Ray 3D movie playback update for the PS3 is planned for later this year, the gaming 3D update is already part of the current firmware.

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jun-2010 at 08:18 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou I was also talking about games. Wii games don't output in high definition, 360 games do. Hence more bandwidth is required. The Blu-Ray 3D movie playback update for the PS3 is planned for later this year, the gaming 3D update is already part of the current firmware.

You mentioned 'Avatar' which implies movies. Avatar the game is forgettable.

@Lou

I specifically referred to Avatar the game in that posting. That Disney game (also based on an animated movie) you linked to looks forgetable for me as well. Actually Avatar the game received far better reviews than that Disney game you linked (metacritic average only 4.9, so probably shovelware).

The point was more bandwidth is needed for Avatar in 3D than normal 360 games, hence the requirement of HDMI. The game like that other PS3 game I mentioned do not need the PS3 3D update to run in 3D, however an advanced game like Super Stardust HD which outputs 120 high definition images per second to the display requires even more bandwidth (more than the 360's HDMI port can deliver) and requires the recently released 3D gaming update.

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jun-2010 at 08:48 PM.

@MikeB

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Natal is said to use "10 to 15% of the Xbox 360's computing resources

You called 10% 'quite a lot'? Your statement inflates the amount of power to levels way above 10%. This is an example of your actions which lead others to conclude fanboi.

@MikeB

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Show me an example of what you are referring to (what you think can't be done with Playstation Move).

Controlling a game by leaving the Move on the TV and not touching it.

@Lou

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Minority Report used a holographic display. I saw no holographic display or holographic interaction only augmented-reality that even my Google G1 can do since it has a camera and a display.

Plus in Minority Report the Tom Cruise character wore some gloves. He didn't carry a stick with a glowing ball. NATAL is more Minority report like, and one better because it doesn't need the gloves.

@BrianK

The standard 360 controller supports plug-in accessories via it's custom USB port. You could plug in a lighted ball and and accelerometer and it would work just like MOVE using NATAL, but don't tell MikeB that, he thinks MOVE is special.


That arc'd area at the front looks perfect for holding a sphere...

Last edited by Lou on 01-Jun-2010 at 09:18 PM.

@BrianK

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You called 10% 'quite a lot'?

For such simplistic games, yes I think that's a lot. Remember 360 launch games already used up near all of available CPU time according to Microsoft, so those launch games wouldn't have been able to handle this extra load without deep optimisation.

PS3 games like Uncharted 2 and Killzone 3 are now at the point as 360 launch games were in 2005 where they tap the bulk of available CPU resources. As there are 8 processors to optimise for instead of 3 there's a lot more headroom for growth for future PS3 games than there was for 360 games in 2005.

@BrianK

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Controlling a game by leaving the Move on the TV and not touching it

That's probably not going to happen this generation of consoles, although Sony does have a gaming patent for this. A virtual reality glove that is pressure sensitive and provides tactile feedback.

Another interesting Sony patent relates to an ultrasonic system stimulating the human brain sensory which should allow the user to virtually touch, taste and smell within a virtual environment.

The infrared sensor however may allow you and Lou to play onsceen fart wars.

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jun-2010 at 09:40 PM.

@Lou
Quote:

The standard 360 controller supports plug-in accessories via it's custom USB port

Microsoft has said that the Natal can be used to compliment the controller. A FPS could continue to use the controller and be enhanced by the Natal determining where you move your head to look at each side. This would give you a screen that's virtually bigger than your TV.



@MikeB
Quote:

For such simplistic games, yes I think that's a lot. Remember 360 launch games already used up near all of available CPU time according to Microsoft, so those launch games wouldn't have been able to handle this extra load without deep optimisation.

Just because a game uses 100% of a console's power doesn't mean it can't use less. There's always a trade off of developer time and product. Does it make sense to use 75% of the power when it increases development time and testing time but not sales? Of course not.

As for 8 processors vs 3. It all depends. If you're talking threads which helps optimize processor usage it's 8 vs 6. Also, the Cell helps out the RSX. If you're going to run a game engine on 8 processors your graphics will suffer as the Cell won't be helping the RSX. It's all a question of trade-offs for developers and what is going to get them the best Return On Investment.

I know you knock 'shovelware'. But, when a developer can make it quicker and sell more copies they earn a higher ROI. Guess what... More Shovelware is coming the PS3 and 360 are opening themselves up to that market.

@BrianK

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As for 8 processors vs 3. It all depends. If you're talking threads which helps optimize processor usage it's 8 vs 6.

If you are referring to hardware thread it's 9 vs 6. But I was actually referring to processing power / available CPU time. Not how many threads the running software is using, although it should be running in at least 8 threads on the PS3 and 3 threads on the 360 to harvest maximum performance potential. Of course the OS/running game could use more threads (software threads), but going beyond 9 threads on the PS3 and 6 threads on the XBox 360 will yield slight performance penalties.

But no, I wasn't talking about that at all.

Quote:

you're going to run a game engine on 8 processors your graphics will suffer as the Cell won't be helping the RSX.

But it can look a lot better than on the 360. The RSX together with a little extra help from the Cell (as it's designed to provides a lot more flexible graphics muscle than can be provided by the Xenos) is able to greatly outrender the Xenos/Xenon, the remaining resources is still way more than the remaining Xenon resources.

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jun-2010 at 10:52 PM.

@MikeB

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But it can look a lot better than on the 360. The RSX together with a little extra help from the Cell

Then you don't have your Cell fully devoted to the gaming engine and instead working on graphics. Sure the graphics may be slightly better (a lot is yet to be proven in any game) but in turn that power is then not available to the engine. Trade-offs. They exist even on the PS3.

@BrianK

We have already seen a lot better in the latest exclusives (for example God of War 3's advanced anti-aliasing). Trade-offs happen on all systems, especially on the PC as the less demanding games sell a lot better than those requiring high specs (usually influencing game design directly, it has to run on entry level hardware as well).

The original Uncharted: Drake's Fortune was an important eye-opener, it accompled 16 FP quality HDR with AA in 720p, no blockbuster 360 game to date accomplished this so far despite the headstart and that game being released in 2007! Apart from the Cell assisting the GPU with rendering a lot of other stuff was running on the Cell's SPUs, this while Naughty Dog only tapped about 30% of the available SPU time at the time.

Although one additional reason why it looked so much better than 360 games was also that they streamed a lot of high quality textures from the high capacity Blu-Ray disc and of course art direction / acting performance talent.

Uncharted 2 puts the PS3 is full usage, but the devs of course stated they have a lot of options to optimise just like devs could optimise their 360 game engine since the launch of the console.

From a technical perspective Uncharted 3 is likely to see similar gains as we saw from Uncharted 1 to Uncharted 2 and that step up in terms of game complexity was huge!

Quote:

Cell fully devoted to the gaming engine

I see the rendering engine as part of the gaming engine.

Uncharted 2's main characters are drawn in a whopping 80,000 polygons, up from about 20,000 to 30,000 in the first game (which is still well more than high profile games like RE5 even use for its cutscene models!). For comparison Gears of War's highest polygon character sports only 15,000 polygons, Half Life 2 on the PC comes no further as 8,000 polygons. A Halo 3 Elephant is just a little more than 5,000 polygons.

There already are plenty of eye-openers out there and we still have a long exciting road of advancements ahead of us (on the PS3!)

Last edited by MikeB on 02-Jun-2010 at 12:36 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK Uncharted 2's main characters are drawn in a whopping 80,000 polygons, up from about 20,000 to 30,000 in the first game (which is still well more than high profile games like RE5 even use for its cutscene models!). For comparison Gears of War's highest polygon character sports only 15,000 polygons, Half Life 2 on the PC comes no further as 8,000 polygons. A Halo 3 Elephant is just a little more than 5,000 polygons. There already are plenty of eye-openers out there and we still have a long exciting road of advancements ahead of us (on the PS3!)

But there was less roaming environment to render. The game was the FF13 of 3rd person action games...

Then there was the collision detection problems...
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Enemies in this game are not created equally. For some reason, soldiers with helmets can take an entire clip of rifle bullets up the nose and not feel it. Developers, if you're going to make an enemy that can take that much punishment, at least tell me why. Does he have an adamantium skull? Is his helmet possessed by demons? What separates this fellow from the 15 other guys I just took out with a bullet to the face?

http://tigerweekly.com/print/12-02-2009/13193/uncharted-2-among-thieves-is-high-adventure

Regardless, it's a PS3 game so MikeB says it's perfect....

@MikeB

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Trade-offs happen on all systems, especially on the PC as the less demanding games sell a lot better than those requiring high specs (usually influencing game design directly, it has to run on entry level hardware as well)

Just like today if you want a sell a lot of games your target is the #1 seller, the Wii. And if you want a few more add in the #2 placed system and PS3.

Quote:

Uncharted 2's main characters are drawn in a whopping 80,000 polygons...A Halo 3 Elephant is just a little more than 5,000 polygons.

Oh look you compared a game, Halo 3, that wasn't meant to be a polygon show house and built on last console engine, even if it did eat the Uncharted 2's sales for breakfast. Though strangely Halo3 at times looked better than Uncharted2. Hmm, guess polygon count isn't the only thing in a video game. Hey but no one's forcing you to make a fair comparison are there.

No one doubts the PS3 has more power. 2x, as Sony claimed, is yet to be proven in a real game.