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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:42:55
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@AmigaBlitter

" Maybe there are other faster PPC boards in development, who knows?"

- Again question.... how many of them will be in professional
desktop audio/video use?

All the best,

D.

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Trixie 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:45:59
#42 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1839
From: Czech Republic

@eXec

Quote:
x86 is the only way to go forward now

Oh yeah, thanks for telling us! We didn't know that.

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AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:51:44
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Manu

" There's no point discussing moving AOS4.0 x86"

O yes, there is...that was 3 years ago! The moment 3 years
ago belongs to the past now, in the meanwhile Apple fully
switched onto x86, that`s quite a good reason for a new
discussion and revision of the current evolution development.
On the end, we are the community, we are those who are buying
the hardware/software, the customer is always right.


All the best,

D.



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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 11:55:27
#44 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Trixie

Quote:
Oh yeah, thanks for telling us! We didn't know that.


I told you already, a few times in a row...

:D

all the best,

D.

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Jupp3 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 12:01:29
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1223
From: Unknown

@eXec

As Apple is the "closest equivalent of what it would be like, if OS4 ran on X86", I took the liberty of replacing Sam/whatever as Apple in your questions for "what would it be like if OS4 went X86"
Quote:
What`s the current availability of your (933MhZ) machine?

Pretty nice. New Apple systems are constantly available. Now and then (thanks to them investing in research and development) old models are phased out, and new custom x86 hardware is made available. Due to big sales volumes (and big win margins) they can make sure that most dealers have stock all the time.
Quote:
What are the costs ?

They are considerably higher than "generic" PC hardware, but still attractive enough to customers, thanks to large production runs.
Quote:
What if something goes wrong with your mainboard? (malfunction-warranty)

As win margins are high and they are doing big business, they can easily afford to replace random hardware now and then.

Why does this work for Apple?

They have attractive product (MacOS X) that people want.
Thanks to this, they are able to mass produce their custom X86 hardware in large quantities.

Why it wouldn't work (much better than PPC) for Amiga?

The product isn't that attractive to general public, just face it. Few enthusiast want it.
Thanks to this, the production runs / mass purchases for the specially branded "X86-AmigaOnes" would be considerably smaller, and thus more expensive. This would also lower availability, as resellers would have for new units to be made whenever they are sold out.

Of course it remains to be seen if Amiga inc's "approved hardware only" policy stands after the court case.

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pavlor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 12:48:26
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9010
From: Unknown

@AmiDelf2

Quote:
No other choice??? Have you read my post at all? I said AROS as an option if you want to run AmigaOS enviromented OS on x86. Support that one!


AROS? Maybe in five years...
I have UAE, I don´t need another OS3.x.

PowerPC is gone, 970MP is last of its kind. There will be no new PowerPC CPU from IBM, no new PowerPC CPU from Freescale and no new (non vapor) PowerPC CPU from AMCC.

In 2-3 years emulated Amiga (UAE) will be faster than any real AmigaOS compatible computer in existence.
I would like to use AROS, but it must be stable at least as my notebook (486SX) with Windows 3.1.

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BigD 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 12:57:15
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4974
From: UK

@pavlor

Quote:
In 2-3 years emulated Amiga (UAE) will be faster than any real AmigaOS compatible computer in existence.


What? With full AGA/RTG support and just as usable as a REAL Amiga? That'll be the day

Windows always has a way of slowing fast hardware down to make you feel like you're using many layers of software loosely connected to the hardware - like a dogy fly-by-wire system with lag!

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:04:14
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@pavlor

Uhm, and you know this how?

Who at IBM/AMCC/Freescale told you that there will be no more chips from them?

I'm interested because I'm currently working on a PowerPC board for non-Amiga purposes

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Lou 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:05:35
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3983
From: Rhode Island

If you ask me, the way to become platform independent is to have the native development environment become in intermediate language processor. Even if that intermediate language is M68XXX assembly.

AmigaDE was the right direction with the wrong management. Where it failed is in relying on other OS's for the HAL. Create a standard Amiga HAL which can be ported to any platform which then loads a JIT specific to that platform then load your Workbench written in the intermediate language which can launch other apps written in that same intermediate language and call it a day.

With the power of today's cpus, performance is a non-issue.

I was reminded of how fast cpus are these days (or aparently aren't) when I had to install a network card on a 128MB 800Mhz P3 machine running Windows ME. Yes: Windows ME!

Navigating the desptop on that machine ran circles around my Athlon64-X2 running Windows XP with 2GB of RAM. Now ask yourself why...

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:08:23
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Slayer

Quote:

Slayer wrote:
I'd rather wait for a completely different cpu than anything available at the moment than see AmigaOS go to that damned path

I don't want ANY of you to use AmigaOS so easily

The AmigaOS will be just fine, what's the rush anyway?


Most companies and non open source development projects actually need this thing called *money* to survive - they'd need OS4 sales for that. Do you *really* think a hundred or two hundred SAMs over time is 'real company,' enough to keep os4 moving forward?

And lol over 'completely different CPU.' Why, besides some left over insanity/incorrect assumptions based on the 80s? Can you actually *defend* your 'x86 is bad' drivel?

I'm just stupified by your 'I don't want any of you to run AOS so easily.' Wow. Glad you're not involved in any Amiga or businesses anywhere.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:10:48
#51 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Jupp3

One big part of it is "emulated", to say wit other words, fictional...
Amiga was never Apple just like Apple was never Amiga,
so similar but such a difference...

And on end, would you notice the difference between PPC or x86 cpu?
Except on the amount of money that is needed to be cashed out?


All the best,

D

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:16:34
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@OldFart

Quote:
Remember this: innovation NEVER, EVER comes from abundant application of current crop of cheap and cheerfull parts in a new design. Whether you are going to be the constructor of an all new car, a laundrymachine or a computer: innovation comes from applying parts that are not common market (yet).


While *real* hardware innovation takes *significant* amounts of money today. So, would you rather see OS4 on 'not special' hardware (like SAM, at $$$ and slow), or at 1/3rd the price, or same price with much better performance? Put the innovation into the apps and OS, regardless of the platform.

I like Olegils comments for a start..not like it would be huge compared to the 'rest of the OSes,' but it would certainly be a nice performance boost.

I think someone else nailed it - it's not so much that people want x86, in general, just a reasonably priced system, that can perform comparably/favorably versus what you can buy in Wal-Mart for a few hundred dollars. Even with an 'Amiga tax,' we're just not getting there, so something should be changing...as well as availability.

Going to x86 has issues, mostly 68k compatibility/JIT, and deciding on what to support...then ensuring as whatever is chosen is phased out/not available, that something else is supported. Of course, also a fairly large porting effort besides 'just' Petunia. It could be done, but wouldn't be insignificant.

And you all assume OS4 is targeted at desktop. Anywhere else, how many phones and network gear, automotive computers, PDAs, STBs etc - use x86?

Or should Hyperion also work for free, without any chance of ever selling more than a few hundred copies of OS4? I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see OS4 on some commodity x86 laptop and standard motherboard, I would...just there are other considerations..financial, time/effort, and any future plans for anything other than 'hobby desktop.'

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:31:12
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@wegster

At least, someone who looks the situation with clear mind and common sense...

It looks to me that a huge percentage of the current community is
a bit too radicaly standing with the iron ball attached onto their leg,
and most of them are, how to express myself properly, wittingly "blind".
It is not that they don`t see, they dont wan`t to see.

Amiga will not survive on a few hundred of sold Sams mbo`˛s...
They will be the same as the A1200 or A4000 in a few years, and the
eventually overpriced new models will buy the same amount of people.

So the circle is closed, again...



All the best,

D.

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:33:16
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9626
From: Greensborough, Australia

@TheDungeonDelver

Quote:
It was "time to go x86" in 2001 when this ride started; the thing is, Hyperion never had a mandate from Amiga, Inc. or whoever they are to do so. If Amiga, Inc. had said "Port this to Intel/AMD architecture," then they would have by now.


How ironic, the only "Amiga" OS Amiga make in the form of that AmigaDE thing or whatever you want to call it runs only on x86.

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pavlor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:35:01
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9010
From: Unknown

@olegil

Quote:
Who at IBM/AMCC/Freescale told you that there will be no more chips from them?


They will produce more chips, but no NEW/MODERN CPUs.


IBM:
last desktop CPU - 970MP (2005) - computer of my brother is nearly two times faster (two years old Core 2 Quad Q6600)
Yes there are newer CELL chips for servers and TVs etc, nothing for us.

Freescale:
last desktop CPU - e600 core (even slower than 970MP...)

AMCC:
Do you like Pentium III class CPUs?


Where are new powerful PowerPC CPUs? There is no hope for PowerPC on desktops.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:38:46
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eXec
Yeah, it's certainly not great, but Hyperion may have reasons to NOT move to x86. Only they can tell, as few of us have an idea for a *real* commercial success for OS4. Maybe it's ARM, maybe it's X-Scale, but I doubt the plan is 'world domination on the desktop' any time in the next 10 years..

Of course, I'd love to see OS4 inside an amithlon or VM type environment, even if performance isn't great, it can be 'cost of the OS only' for potential new users to try. It won't rock the world, but it could make some income for OS4, for whatever the longer term plan is, and perhaps allow a *start* of a port to x86. Or of course, an *inexpensive* os4 machine, whatever it is...anything to get the OS4 some sales, and bring in *any* 'new blood.' That's more important, to me, and thinking about 'future of OS4', than what platform it's on, or if we have the fastest hardware.

Once you go from ~1000 users to say, 10,000, it's more feasible to plan longer term projects, or a special PPC mobo, more radical port (architecture), etc....but with a userbase so small, and no *real* compelling desktop features versus *modern* competition (pls, no comments from people who haven't run anything beyond MacOS9 or Windows 95), nor any *real* killer apps....you need to grow the userbase, and get some income, before some other things really make sense.

It's really a tough situation..with I suspect not much $, which is of course, a big problem for commercially developed projects, even with 'volunteers.'

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:38:49
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9626
From: Greensborough, Australia

@eXec

Why is there such a big thing about OS4 should be on x86? I think it's time to leave AmigaOS4 as it is, on PPC. That's what it was made for. And perhaps leave it to rest.

That leaves AmigaOS5 whenever that comes out. And AmigaOS6 which will be AmigaOS/4 ported to x86 hardware. AmigaOS x86 will have no Petunia and no ExegSG like it is now. I doubt legacy apps will run as they are now if at all, and will have a 68k sandbox. Gee it's sounding like AROS.

Last edited by Hypex on 21-Mar-2009 at 11:31 AM.

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ChrisH 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:45:39
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

While this is a stupid thread (sorry, but it's been discussed nearly every month for the last 10 years) I wish to mention that all current consoles use a PPC chip: Wii, X-box 360 & PS3. (Now yes, at least some of them are custom PPC cpus, but that's simply to cut costs, make cheap copies harder, breaking their s/w protection harder & make emulation harder.)

P.S. I'm not saying x86 is bad (I'd love it to happen), but it's simply impractical for Hyperion. TBH, we are lucky they are still doing OS4 at all, never mind the cost of switching to x86 (if you want to retain PPC & 68k compatibility).

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:52:23
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Hypex

Under OS4.x, I really ment all new versions of the
Amiga OS... It is time to go forward, to focus onto
the biggest market of today, even to recruti some
old ex Amiga users... And there was quite a large
amount of them...

New technologies, new chalenges ... Amiga OS is
capable to fit on any available platform with astonishing
performance and stability...

It makes no difference but in price and status of the platform,
, PPC or x86... x86 is not so bad at all today, just look
onto i7... And the future is Larabe based workstations.
Nvidia anounced their own x86cpu.... It can`t be bad at all,
only better and with more new users..

All the best,

D.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 13:58:31
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@ChrisH

One small question?

Are the new x86 macs compatible with ne old PPC ones?



All the best,

D.

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