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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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PosterThread
Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 9:00:45
#1041 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:

Well, bootspeed being 10 secs faster or slower doesnt matter. Never understood the big deal regarding that, since its what you can do AFTER the OS loads that matters.



You would possibly understand "the big deal regarding that", if you had to reboot your system frequently.
Currently e.g. my PC has the problem that it boots into the log-on screen, I log in, it completes booting and openes the desktop and while it still is establishing the DSL connection (after roughly 7 minutes of booting time) it suddenly rebootes for no obvious reason. This way finding the problem takes ages...
In this case I certainly prefer the Amigas 50 seconds of booting time...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Dandy 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 10:07:14
#1042 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:

Try to run Window$ / OSX / Linux on a, say SAM440EP-FLEX @ 733 Mhz, then we see what happens ... :)



Even though you put a smiley face at the end I still can't let this one go.

What was the cost of your SAM440EP-FLEX based system, $1,000? Now put Windows / OS X / Linux on a $1,000 system and see what happens.



As long as you don't recompile "Window$ / OSX / Linux" for PPC cpu nothing will happen, as these have been made for x86 cpu family. They will not run on a PPC cpu out of the box.
But what the cost of the HW has to do with that is beyond me.

Quote:

agami wrote:

...
Try to run AmigaOS 4.x on Core i5-4690K @3,500MHz then see what happens



Nothing. It will not work. AOS does not run on Intel out of the box.

Quote:

agami wrote:

Try to run AmigaOS 4.x on X1000 with PA6T-1682M @1,800MHz using both cores and see what happens



I would expect this to work.

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 10:37:37
#1043 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
...
Also, Amiga OS was an OS around the time when some of the current OSs were around (Apple's System, and later NeXT's NeXTStep, and MS Windows all existed around the time Amiga OS 1.x - 3.x was active.



Hmmm - as far as I recall it, M$-DOS 5.0 - 6.22 was commonly used at the time of Workbench 1.2 - not M$-Windows...

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 10:47:44
#1044 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@agami

...
OS4 has no modern hardware that even comes close to x86 performance
...



I'd say that depends on what you replace the "x" in x86 with. If you replace it with "80" we are talking abour 8086 HW - and I bet OS4 hardware even surpasses the performance of 8086 hardware...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 11:06:20
#1045 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@KingKong

Quote:

KingKong wrote:

...
what are a view years compared to billion years to come?
...



Assuming you meant "a few years", I bet you'd go for the "few years" option instead of for the "billion years to come" - especially if you're already approaching an age of 60 years, like I do.
I'd like to see that happen (AOS re-gaining publicity) during the rest of my remaining lifetime, e.g. in "a few years"...
(And we all know how long "a few years" can be in Amiga land... )

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Leo 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 11:06:58
#1046 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

You would possibly understand "the big deal regarding that", if you had to reboot your system frequently.

Yeah, you mean like OS that are not memory protected like AmigaOS ?

Indeed I guess that's why it seems to be so important ;)

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 11:11:59
#1047 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Dirk-B

Quote:

Dirk-B wrote:

...
Now, does anybody can give me an advice what the next thing should be
that i should buy?
...



Yes, I can.
You may buy whatever you like, as long as the money you spend on it ends up in my purse...

(Sorry - couldn't resist)

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 11:19:02
#1048 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Thorham

Quote:

Thorham wrote:
@ferrels

You're absolutely right. All versions of AmigaOs are a dead end and a complete waste of time. Expanding AOS to comply to current standards is simply absurd, and not in any way, shape or form worth the effort
...



If its all dead-end and a complete waste of time, then please tell me:
What are you doing here all the time?

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 11:46:09
#1049 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@ferrels

Right, what features is it that AmigaOS lacks, that won't be adressed by 4.2?
...



It will be missing a significant user base as well as a software base, that's what.
...
it'll also be missing modern hardware



So you are saying that a "user base", a "software base" and "modern hardware" are OS features?
Interesting...

Quote:

ferrels wrote:

Oh, and let's not forget that it'll also be missing ..., multi-user capability,
...



I want my own, personal copy of the OS (personal computer - personal OS). If others also want to use it, they can buy it themself.
No multi-user capability needed.

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 11:59:45
#1050 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:

Quote:


You would possibly understand "the big deal regarding that", if you had to reboot your system frequently.



Yeah, you mean like OS that are not memory protected like AmigaOS ?

Indeed I guess that's why it seems to be so important ;)



Hmmm - in my post I was referring to WinXP. And this is memory protected, IIRC.

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 12:18:50
#1051 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@cdimauro

if you want a updated polished OS supporting more RAM, SMP and so on you have to break compatibility. Alone having 64bit means new compilation of software.
...



Not necessarily.
I could also go and buy one of the latest 64 bit multi-core WIntel boxes. That would offfer me "more RAM, SMP and so on" without breaking any compatibility at minimum cost.

But then my entire collection of engineering software (CAD/CAM/CAE) would be no longer of use for me, as this is for 32 bit 68k Amigas.
And replacing THAT with Windows software would cost me a fortune, if I don't want pirated software...

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 12:34:08
#1052 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@KingKong

Quote:

KingKong wrote:

How abaout a 40 bit CPU/computer?

100% 40 bit, thus data and address bus with full 40 bits, with 40 bit data types also. 80 bit data types should be supported in hardware.



Why would I want 40 Bit computers to be developed, if I can already go and buy 64 bit computers?

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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OldFart 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 14:40:42
#1053 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3062
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@thread

IIRC this thread was about Quote:
How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
. At least the title gave me that clue.

In industry (and in life generally) one can choose from two options:
a - follow the pack, wherever it goes and try to keep up, somehow, more or less.
b - entirely go your own way, whatever the 'mainstrem' dictates in order to be taken serious.

A lot of comments I read here opt for the first. Keeping apace with swiftly moving and direction-changeing mainstream, will in very short time exhaust the resources of a limited capacity entity like 'Amiga' (Amiga here meant as OS, H/W, market and whatnaught). In such a situation it is hard if not impossible to stand out and be recognised as an entity in its own right as you are constantly amid the dustcloud caused by the stampede.

The second option is for the not so faint-hearted as it requires entrepreneurs, people who are willing, capable and take joy in thinking outside of the lines. Which line by the way? Yes, of course, you will have to adopt externally defined standards, but that doesn't require you to apply/use them like everybody else does, does it? Yes, of corse, you are required to follow internet protocols, but are fully free in the way your browser works and looks. And likewise you are required to follow USB-standards and protocols like anybody else, not to mention BlueTooth. You may even define your own internal standards and live by it. In the past Amiga just did that. As long as you can defend those standards they make full sense, however much they differ from the 'established mainstream' counterparts and again, Amiga just did that.

As Albert Einstein, I think it was him, once stated: "If you don't get lost at some point, you never find a new way". Or something like that.

If you want Amiga to be more mainstream then it currently is, then you might just as well bake your own version of Linux and call it something Amiga-ish. Or take a stock version of some distro and do your mainstream things with it. Maybe there's a 'theme'-thingy that visually turns it into WorkBench 1.2. Who knows (and who actually cares)?
But if you want Amiga to be standing out, you want it turn right where mainstream turns left and make absolutely sure you get noticed! An example of where Amiga could shine as a center of developement is in the DataTypes system. Don't expect it to ever turn up in Windows, Apple should have taken a good look at it and Linux should have included it 15 years ago. The fact that it isn't, clearly shows that 'we' have not been able to 'sell' that advantage very well. Developers on other platform simply do not grasp the positive consequences of such a system. As it stands now, DataTypes may not be fully up to date or matching current standards and it certainly could use some more 'families'. Please bear in mind that this was JUST AN EXAMPLE!

In short: if you want Amiga to shine (again), make it stand out by being different and to function likewise. Very and vastly different. But don't expect to be king of the hill overnight if ever. You'd be a real fool.

My two cents.

OldFart

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danwood 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 30-Jul-2015 21:46:44
#1054 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2008
Posts: 1071
From: Unknown

@Dandy

My A4000 with 040 and 3.9 boots from cold in around 20 seconds so not bad still at all.

My A1XE with 4.1 Final Edition takes about 1:30

My i7 with Win 8.1 takes about 15 seconds from cold, but it has an SSD. With a hard disk it was about 50 seconds.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 31-Jul-2015 5:40:45
#1055 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
@hotrod

Reading this brings up an idea in me.
The capabilities of XENA in the AmigaOne X1000 could possibly be used to support 3d-printing, as well as 3d-scanning.

It should also be predestinated to build flexible production systems. But for this an updated version of DynaCadd would be required, as well as suppport for all types of CNC machines and industrial robots.

Back in 1989 I could use my A 500 to design in 3d with DynaCadd and to convert the 3d data into executable CNC programs, which really run on industrial CNC machines.

If the AmigaOne X1000 could be used to control such a production system, it could mean smaller costs for small production companies to set up such numerically controlled production environments and so be a market for the Amiga.

There are many alternatives which costs even 1/100 of an X1000. It doesn't make sense to stick with a so much expensive product for doing automation.

XCore is an useless chip which was integrated just to fool people thinking that X1000 had "custom chips" like the Amigas, which is clearly wrong (XCore is a discrete chip which everybody can buy for $10, or with specific cards).

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 31-Jul-2015 5:49:57
#1056 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
@michalsc

Hmmm - at least 32bit Amigas impressed the NASA-engineers enough to use them:
Amiga at NASA:

Quote:

Bob Castro (Obligement) wrote:

...
Since after all, this IS rocket science, NASA must downlink a tremendous amount of data from each spacecraft; during ground tests, through the countdown and lift-off and out into space. There is no room for error in the acquisition and processing of this data. It must be accurately calculated and reliably sent from the hanger to distant space centers around the world participating in the mission. All in real time and without interruption.
...
The spacecrafts supported by the Amigas include all of the Atlas-Centaurs, Delta II and Delta III, the Orbital Sciences Pegasus, Lockheed-Martin Athena and a couple different models of the Titan. GOES and GPS spacecraft data are processed, and some user data off the space shuttle.



It seeems 32 Bit Amigas are more secure and reliable than you think.

It doesn't talk about security. In fact, it's well know that the Amiga o.s. is one of the most insecure o.ses, since it has no protection at all, and even exposes its public structures to everyone. This is the reason why after 30 years it has the same problems.
Quote:
And if not really RTOS, then AmigaOS is at least close to RTOS. Close enough for the NASA and their tasks:

Quote:

Bob Castro (Obligement) wrote:

Gary Jones, principal systems engineer for NASA's software systems at Cape Canaveral told us the Amigas take in all the telemetry data from the spacecraft, scale it by applying coefficients of up to fifth order polynomials and convert the data back to engineering units for display to the engineers working the launch.


NASA's principal systems engineer about the Amiga:

Quote:

Gary Jones (principal systems engineer for NASA's software systems at Cape Canaveral) wrote:

"It just turned out that it was a good machine. The things that make a machine good for playing games also tend to make it good for processing and displaying data, because you've got some of the same problems. You need a very efficient, very fast operating system, and the Amiga has that and very little overhead too. That's what makes it nice; we don't load down the system running the overhead; we can just process the data."


It doesn't mean that the Amiga o.s. is an RTOS. It also means that it was enough to handle this task properly.

An RTOS has other requirements to fulfill, like Michal has written.
Quote:
Hmmm, the NASA systems engineer seems to differ here (back in 1999):

Quote:

Gary Jones wrote:

"If its not a PC, NASA gives us a lot of grief when we try to buy anything to go with the Amigas. They want us to buy PCs and run Windows 95 and NT. We keep trying to tell them its not fast enough so they tell us to buy DEC Alphas. We tell them its too expensive. They don't like the Amiga; it doesn't cost enough."


Michal clearly talked about NOW. Not in 1999. NOW post-Amiga computers are NOT cheap.

Quote:
Regarding user-friendliness:

Apparently it was user-friendly enough for the NASA users:

Quote:

Gary Jones wrote:

Because of the way the Amiga is laid out and because the software is all tied together, each machine can actually support more than one spacecraft at a time, if the bit rate isn't too high. A multi-tasking, multi-spacecraft personal computer!


I doubt that now it can be considered user-friendly, since user interfaces have change a lot.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 31-Jul-2015 5:52:51
#1057 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:

...
Try to run AmigaOS 4.x on Core i5-4690K @3,500MHz then see what happens



Nothing. It will not work. AOS does not run on Intel out of the box.

AOS doesn't magically install itself on a system.

Quote:
Quote:

agami wrote:

Try to run AmigaOS 4.x on X1000 with PA6T-1682M @1,800MHz using both cores and see what happens



I would expect this to work.

Not yet. And who knows when...

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 31-Jul-2015 5:54:38
#1058 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
@ferrels

I want my own, personal copy of the OS (personal computer - personal OS). If others also want to use it, they can buy it themself.
No multi-user capability needed.

Well, my family members can use Windows on the same PC, with their private accounts...

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 31-Jul-2015 5:55:51
#1059 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@OldFart: it's too late. There's no chance for the Amiga o.s. to become again a leading o.s.. Not even with datatypes...

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Thorham 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 31-Jul-2015 7:04:29
#1060 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
Dandy wrote:

f its all dead-end and a complete waste of time, then please tell me:
What are you doing here all the time?

There's more to Amiga than the crusty old operating system, namely stellar retro hardware that's absolutely fabulous for retro computer enthusiasts.

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