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wawa 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 10:32:03
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@hth313

Quote:
"steal some code."


lol, so thats the usual content of their coding seminars? sweet.

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jorit2 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 10:56:14
#182 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@hyperionholding

Quote:

hth313 wrote:

@Snorg

So first we talk about Linux.. then..

"So now you have your device driver skeleton and you have libata and you are ready to steal some code."

[..]

"Copy the libata source code from the Linux source tree and paste into the AmigaOS source tree."

Well I obviously jump to conclusions, so I apologize.


https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40545&forum=14&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0#768406

So can we agree now that AmigaOS4 is probably illegal ?

Or are we not qualified to discuss these issues since we don't have a law degree, specialized in copyright law ?

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 18-Aug-2018 at 11:57 AM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 18-Aug-2018 at 11:02 AM.
Last edited by jorit2 on 18-Aug-2018 at 10:57 AM.

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kamelito 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 12:37:55
#183 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@jorit2

I think that they just have to provide the source code and it is fine.

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jorit2 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 13:30:03
#184 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@kamelit0

The short of it:

If you release/distribute software containing GPL'd components (such as statically linked libraries), your software must be covered by the GPL.
This is why GPL is often dubbed "viral".

If you release/distribute software using LGPL'd libraries, your software doesn't need to be covered by the GPL, but the libraries must retain the LGPL.

Evert

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Nonefornow 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 17:26:35
#185 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 308
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@thread

How do you "steal some code" if the code is free and open source?


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bison 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 17:49:06
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2089
From: N-Space

@kolla

Quote:
AROS is not GPL.

No, but it would probably benefit the project if it were. The APL is incompatible with the GPL, which prevents AROS from using code from Linux. One wonders what is the benefit of coming up with an almost-by-not-quite compatible license.

There was that thing with Amiga Inc. threatening the project, but I don't know if that is still a concern or not.

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Snorg 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 18:33:29
#187 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Feb-2018
Posts: 117
From: Unknown

@Nonefornow

The terms of the GPL (or LGPL) are not a suggestion. If any developer, including Hyperion, uses code open sourced under either license, they are bound to follow the respective terms and conditions.

From Wikipedia, "licensees may distribute a GPL-covered work only if they can satisfy all of the license's obligations, despite any other legal obligations they might have." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Version_2

That said, clearly the author wasn't confessing theft in use of the phrase, "steal some code" - at least, not intentionally. I (continue to) presume innocence until guilt is proven, as it were.

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Controller 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 21:52:19
#188 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Sep-2003
Posts: 133
From: Brøndby Strand (Denmark)

@Rose

Quote:
True Amigan's write a article how they did it . http://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Anatomy_of_a_SATA_Device_Driver .
Last time I checked sata_fsl.c and other files in Linux kernel source are GPL v2."


Look at: libATA Developer's Guide :
Quote:
The contents of this file are subject to the Open Software License version 1.1 that can be found at http://www.opensource.org/licenses/osl-1.1.txt and is included herein by reference.


Quote:
Alternatively, the contents of this file may be used under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2 (the "GPL") as distributed in the kernel source COPYING file, in which case the provisions of the GPL are applicable instead of the above. If you wish to allow the use of your version of this file only under the terms of the GPL and not to allow others to use your version of this file under the OSL, indicate your decision by deleting the provisions above and replace them with the notice and other provisions required by the GPL. If you do not delete the provisions above, a recipient may use your version of this file under either the OSL or the GPL.

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simplex 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 22:01:10
#189 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Nonefornow

Quote:
How do you "steal some code" if the code is free and open source?


One can "steal some code" by using another's copyrighted source code in violation of whatever license the latter authorized. Most free and open source code requires one at least to acknowledge the author, and a lot of it (e.g., GPL) requires that all the code involving the copied code be open, as well.

See, for instance, Wikipedia's discussion on the legal status of the GPL.

I guess your confusion is based on the meaning of "free and open source." This is not the same as "public domain." With free and open source software, the author retains copyright and all appropriate protection of copyright laws; what's different is the license under which the work is distributed, and under which one may use it.

For instance, suppose I write a book, and give you a review copy. I automatically have copyright for writing the book (under US law, anyway) so you cannot distribute copies of it, let alone resell it, without my permission, even though I gave you a review copy. Likewise, if I choose to give the book away for free, that does not give anyone the right to start selling it as if it belonged to them, unless I explicitly give them that right.

Imagine the same thing with software source code, and you get the idea.

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Rose 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 18-Aug-2018 22:06:32
#190 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@Controller
Quote:
Look at: libATA Developer's Guide :

Quote:
The contents of this file are subject to the Open Software License version 1.1 that can be found at http://www.opensource.org/licenses/osl-1.1.txt and is included herein by reference.

That covers said document aka. "This file".

Look at the mentioned file sata_fsl.c

Quote:

/*
* drivers/ata/sata_fsl.c
*
* Freescale 3.0Gbps SATA device driver
*
* Author: Ashish Kalra
* Li Yang
*
* Copyright (c) 2006-2007 Freescale Semiconductor, Inc.
*
* This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it
* under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the
* Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your
* option) any later version.
*
*/

Last edited by Rose on 18-Aug-2018 at 10:12 PM.

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billt 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 1:54:31
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

I recall some talk about licensing in ssolies sata driver presentation a couplenof amiwests ago. Look up the video...

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fishy_fis 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 15:24:20
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2039
From: Australia

@amigakit

Quote:
Most low end/average PC's cannot either- the modern day GPU architecture harnesses immense power


Come on,.... you're fooling no-one.

The average/low end pc these days is something like a quad core 3.5ghz machine with an ipc about 3x that anything ppc.
It absolutely monsters what it can push out of a modern videocard vs. what things like the x1000 and x5000 can do. Absolute chalk and cheese.
I have a 6 year old i7 that was never high end that I use for retro stuff. 3.8ghz i7, quad core/8 threads. Worth about $80 these days for the cpu, motherboard and 16Gig RAM and probably capable of 10x the results of what you're talking about, so no, it's no even in the same galaxy what a modern low end or average pc can push out of these cards.
The link at the bottom is more demonstrative of what low end/average hardware should be producing (and on older graphics hardware than Polaris).

@Hans

Quote:
Perhaps, in your opinion. The results look nice, though


Looks uncannily like a mobile phone game from 3 or 4 years ago. I guess that's to be expected given the weak cpu at the helm and the api in use.

It's relative though isnt it? Personally Im used to things like this off of weak/low end hardware:

What 2 or 3 year old hardware should be producing


Now having said all this I can appreciate what has been done here, but it's all a bit pointless isnt it? All this monumental effort for what? So OS4.x can almost match it with mobile hardware results from 4 years ago?

Last edited by fishy_fis on 19-Aug-2018 at 03:50 PM.

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Nonefornow 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 16:02:07
#193 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 308
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@simplex

Quote:
For instance, suppose I write a book, and give you a review copy. I automatically have copyright for writing the book (under US law, anyway) so you cannot distribute copies of it, let alone resell it, without my permission, even though I gave you a review copy. Likewise, if I choose to give the book away for free, that does not give anyone the right to start selling it as if it belonged to them, unless I explicitly give them that right.


Why would anyone buy your book from me when you are giving it away for free?
And even if I did sell that one book, while you gave away 100's if not 1,000's of books for free, what is your loss?
How does my selling of your book infringes upon your copyrights?

I feel that this example may actually not be fully applicable to the situation we are discussing.

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broadblues 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 17:41:25
#194 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4434
From: Portsmouth England

@jorit2

It's probablty worth pointing out that there are a small number of other GPL softwares in tghe OS distribution (AmiPDF, Ghostscript, ntfs-3g etc) and the src to all of these is available to customers via the download area of the hyperion wesbite.

These new components are beta and unfisnished thus not in general distribution, so I suspect will be handled in the same way once they are.

The humerous usage of "steal some code" probablty worked better at the actual seminar, when said out loud (probably with a nervous laugh) , than it does in the transcript on the wiki.

Cue lots of people waiving their favourite misinterpretation of the GPL to bash their favourite targets...


Caveat:

I'm just me, not spokeperson for any one, but am a dev who knows how these thibgs work...



Last edited by broadblues on 19-Aug-2018 at 05:43 PM.

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broadblues 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 17:48:55
#195 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4434
From: Portsmouth England

@Nonefornow

Quote:

Quote:

@simplex

Quote:
For instance, suppose I write a book, and give you a review copy. I automatically have copyright for writing the book (under US law, anyway) so you cannot distribute copies of it, let alone resell it, without my permission, even though I gave you a review copy. Likewise, if I choose to give the book away for free, that does not give anyone the right to start selling it as if it belonged to them, unless I explicitly give them that right.


Why would anyone buy your book from me when you are giving it away for free?


Doesn't matter but it's possible they may no realise it was free, ot parts of the work might be sold as if by another author.

Quote:

And even if I did sell that one book, while you gave away 100's if not 1,000's of books for free, what is your loss?


Still irrelavant, but the free coppies might come as a bonus with some other product, or they might be bound into a publiciy PR deal etc, so gaing intangible benefits, such as a boost to the next bok that was not free.

Quote:

How does my selling of your book infringes upon your copyrights?


Because that is the exact definietion, you *may not* make coppies without the owners permision, for *any purpose whatsoever* (except fair usage, which is general linked to educational and attributed quoting of small parts of the whole etc)

Quote:

I feel that this example may actually not be fully applicable to the situation we are discussing.


It's as good as any.

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Rose 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 17:57:25
#196 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:
These new components are beta and unfisnished thus not in general distribution, so I suspect will be handled in the same way once they are.


"It's just a beta" isn't escape clause if you DISTRIBUTE it to customers. p5020sata.device is supposedly in use on X5000 users.

Quote:
Cue lots of people waiving their favourite misinterpretation of the GPL to bash their favourite targets...


Cue lots of people misinterpreting of the GPL to defend Hyperion which just can't do wrong.

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simplex 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 18:27:05
#197 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Nonefornow

Quote:
Why would anyone buy your book from me when you are giving it away for free?

I originally listed a bunch of examples in this reply, but deleted them because I think just this one suffices.

I'm a university professor; I conduct and publish original research in scholarly journals. Copies of the papers are freely available at my website. Suppose I'm writing a book, but I'm nowhere near done yet because I'm trying to do a good job, but university obligations (teaching, service) make it slow going.

Meanwhile, someone else likes one particular paper of mine, then decides to copy it, elaborate on it, and publish it as his own work, without giving any credit at all to me. He sells it for lots of money, mainly because my original work was so great; he hasn't added much value, and he has presented it all as his own. So now he's invited to give TED talks and is offered a prestigious position at another university, while I continue to slog away at my book, perhaps even unaware what this thief is up to.

Stuff like this actually happens.

Quote:
And even if I did sell that one book, while you gave away 100's if not 1,000's of books for free, what is your loss? How does my selling of your book infringes upon your copyrights?

See above.

Quote:
I feel that this example may actually not be fully applicable to the situation we are discussing.

I'll grant that the analogy is limited. In this case, the fact that it's trivial to copy and distribute software makes it different from printed works, which are nontrivial to copy and distribute. But there are elements of truth to the analogy, and in any case with the internet and the diffusion of formats such as PDF, the analogy starts to work better.

Last edited by simplex on 19-Aug-2018 at 06:28 PM.

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ASiegel 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 19:04:53
#198 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 210
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

I get your overall point which I do not necessarily disagree with but some of your arguments are deeply flawed.

Quote:
Come on,.... you're fooling no-one. The average/low end pc these days is something like a quad core 3.5ghz machine with an ipc about 3x that anything ppc.

How do you define "PC"? A total of 260 million computers were shipped in 2017.

63 percent were laptops. The vast majority of them included no dedicated GPU from either AMD or nVIDIA but featured only Intel's "GPUs", which are not exactly known for delivering high levels of performance.

If you look up the best-selling laptops on Amazon.com for 2017, you will find plenty of machines with 1.6 Ghz quad-core chips as well as dual-core processors...

I get that you build a fast computer by yourself. Good for you. But your computer is not presentative of what the average computer buyer is interested in, who appears to favors portability and battery life over raw CPU and GPU performance.

Quote:
I have a 6 year old i7 that was never high end that I use for retro stuff. 3.8ghz i7, quad core/8 threads. Worth about $80 these days for the cpu, motherboard and 16Gig RAM

Based on what I saw on Ebay Australia, the memory alone is roughly worth about that much.

Quote:
The link at the bottom is more demonstrative of what low end/average hardware should be producing (and on older graphics hardware than Polaris).

Again, you have a heavily skewed sense of what "low end" hardware really is.

The Star Wars raytracing demo near the 4 minute mark was rendered on a new "supercomputer" with an "official list price" of 75,000 USD:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ne9bbm/star-wars-nvidia-dxr-demo-gdc

The following Andy Serkis demo ran on the same NVIDIA DGX Station hardware. Nvidia is running a new promotion so the discounted price is now 25.000 USD below the full price, if you are interested.

Either way, hardly "low-end / average hardware" with "older graphics cards"...

By the way, a more interesting point of reference for your overall argument might be what 3D games look like on the Xbox 360 game console that features a PowerMac G5-level processor and a 13 years old GPU. Feel free to look up videos of Crysis 3, GTA 5 or Alan Wake. This is what can be done with "old" and "outdated" graphics hardware, which some on this forum have belittled, if you invest the time to fully use it.

Quote:
Now having said all this I can appreciate what has been done here, but it's all a bit pointless isnt it? All this monumental effort for what? So OS4.x can almost match it with mobile hardware results from 4 years ago?

If you are selling a 2,000 USD computer with an alternative OS, you need compatible graphics hardware and related drivers. Given the price of the total package, it is probably fair to say that most buyers would expect to be able to use 3D hardware acceleration even if it was not as full-featured as on some other platforms. So, there is nothing wrong with developing 2d and 3d drivers in general.

That being said, it is next to impossible to be "competitive" with regard to 3D graphics and gaming compared to more mainstream operating systems. It is surely good to have 'essential functionality', but you also need to ensure that you dedicate sufficient resources to areas where you know you can excel and differentiate yourself in a positive way.

Last edited by ASiegel on 19-Aug-2018 at 07:09 PM.

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jorit2 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 19:08:10
#199 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@jorit2

It's probablty worth pointing out that there are a small number of other GPL softwares in tghe OS distribution (AmiPDF, Ghostscript, ntfs-3g etc) and the src to all of these is available to customers via the download area of the hyperion wesbite.

These new components are beta and unfisnished thus not in general distribution, so I suspect will be handled in the same way once they are.



AmiPDF and Ghostscript are merely applications.
I don't know how ntfs-3g ties in (technically speaking) into the system, so I can't comment on that one.

But I can imagine the kernel or other core parts of the system linking (statically or "shared) to whatever is derived of the snippet of code mentioned above, which would have to be GPL as well.
As a consequence, the kernel (...) would have to be GPL as well. Releasing the code of libata (or whatever is derived of it) won't do.

To avoid this, is the very reason why the LGPL was invented.

Evert

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broadblues 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 19-Aug-2018 19:32:09
#200 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4434
From: Portsmouth England

@jorit2

But we are talking about a device driver here, which is stand alone element not linked to the exec / dos / filesystem parts but provinding service to them.



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