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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 14:00:31
#201 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11415
From: Norway

@Amigo1

Well the idea behind hypervisor is to have the ability delegate resources, run different kernels and so on, so by having something like level 0-hypervisor layer. You can build different versions of the OS for different tasks. Without being restricted by legacy and this problems.

L4Re for example be ideal fit for what we need. (except it's not designed for PowerPC)

https://www.kernkonzept.com/l4re.html

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 04:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 02:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 02:02 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 14:00:52
#202 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10021
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
How many of them can REALLY take benefit of running on different cores? How many can take benefits of ALL cores? WHO will develop such applications?


Porting a web browser would satisfy all these since they need power and on OS4 where it lacks both hardware and software acceleration it needs all the power it can get.

However, before we can even talk about OS4 multicore, we must address the elephant in the room. OS4 does not support threads. They had a chance to add actual threading where code could make use of other cores down the track. Sure, you can add a child task, but that is not the same. A child task runs in the same context as the parent task. They need to add proper threads IMHO. Before they talk about AMP/BMP/SMP, other banks and picture formats, to my own MCP. Multi Core Processing.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 14:07:56
#203 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11415
From: Norway

@Hypex

Well AMP is basically what WarpOS and PowerUP is a OS running independent from the main operating system on different kernel. with some strange API calls, synchronize stuff, que things and so on.

Supercomputer for example, are not really a one computer it's many computers where you like RPC task that delegate workloads. So there many ways we can think it be possible to off load work even in AMP like design.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 14:22:32
#204 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11415
From: Norway

@Jax

Quote:

by Jax on 24-Mar-2019 13:20:17

As usual, the Amiga community cuts a branch under itself. A-EON dragged a lot of programmers from Hyperion, and they took their stuff with them e.g. Joerg Strohmayer (SFS, JXFS), Massimiliano Tretene (Ringhio) and many others. And now Steven Solie, who worked mainly on X5000 SATA controller drivers.

Paid to programmers - definitely yes. But from what? A-EON mainly pays programmers from selling overpriced motherboards, overpriced Software Enhancer packages and overpriced graphics drivers. But programming for Hyperion under NDA documents is considered for something negative. You insult people who do it for free. For the Amiga itself, for its fun. How many of you have joined Hyperion as betatesters, translators or programmers? But you are all the smartest.

You even insult Solie here... The Amiga community is great, but stupid in its courts. And you give all the blame to Hyperion? Phe...


I agree a lot with what you're saying. However, I guess the users see is Hyperion selling some CD's, ROM's and DISCS and digital downloads, so they should be earning money yet developers are not payed. I think the anger is more towards the upper management at Hyperion. There is also the lack of information form Hyperion and lack of progress reports.

Anything AmigaOS4 community is maybe 1/6 of the community. Classic community (hardware nerds, people emulating and so on) its maybe 3/6 of community and then you have 1/6 MorphOS and 1/6 of AROS

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 03:53 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 02:24 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 15:39:48
#205 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5761
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

I do not really understand your numbers

What is difference between AmigaOS4 and AmigaOS4.1?

BTW "classic" is much more than just the half except you only count people using real hardware (without emulation)

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 15:54:02
#206 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11415
From: Norway

@OlafS25

he he fixed.

Well it's true that there is a few MorphOS/AROS who also benefits from work on AmigaOS3.1.4 because they use FSUAE/EAUE as well, so who like to see more of thatů most likely more interested in work on 680x0 then work on PowerPC and AmigaOS4.x, so yes the 680x0 market is pretty big. But real invasion can only happen on the native OS.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 04:00 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Mar-2019 at 03:59 PM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 16:34:14
#207 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 603
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:


I strongly doubt that also BMP can be implemented on OS4.


BMP From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basic Multilingual Plane, related to the Unicode character set
Beep Media Player, an obsolete media player related to XMMS
BMP file format, the file name extension for the Bitmap image file format
BGP Monitoring Protocol (RFC 7854), a network protocol for monitoring BGP sessions

Tell me more about your thoughts.

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cdimauro 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 18:32:53
#208 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@Fl@sh Quote:
Fl@sh wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
WHO will develop such applications?

Maybe first step should be a recompile of most used apps and let them to use multicore using new system calls.

Yes, that should be the case... having some APIs, but after so many years of promises there's not even an API definition available for dealing with "multicore". "multicore" which is continuously repeated as "still a priority"...
Quote:
I hope amiga devs, as standard good pratice, will release as much as possible source codes with their new apps.
There's no reason to release only binary, we have no commercial convenience to develop for amiga, so majority of devs release their programs for fun and let others enjoy with their work.

Well, some applications are still sold even on/for this hobby o.s., and I wonder how many of them can be open sourced. On the contrary, I don't see any attitude towards open sourcing projects in the post-Commodore community.


@Jax Quote:
Jax wrote:
As usual, the Amiga community cuts a branch under itself. A-EON dragged a lot of programmers from Hyperion, and they took their stuff with them e.g. Joerg Strohmayer (SFS, JXFS), Massimiliano Tretene (Ringhio) and many others. And now Steven Solie, who worked mainly on X5000 SATA controller drivers.

Paid to programmers - definitely yes. But from what? A-EON mainly pays programmers from selling overpriced motherboards, overpriced Software Enhancer packages and overpriced graphics drivers. But programming for Hyperion under NDA documents is considered for something negative.

Maybe because NDAs don't make sense at all?
Quote:
You insult people who do it for free.

Where are the insults? Or do you want to redefine the meaning of the term?
Quote:
For the Amiga itself, for its fun.

There's no Amiga anymore from very long time
Quote:
How many of you have joined Hyperion as betatesters, translators or programmers?

Why someone should support a company which is the source of many litigations from several years, and which is SELLING products, not even paying coders for their work?
Quote:
But you are all the smartest.

Thanks.
Quote:
You even insult Solie here...

Again, maybe you have to take a look at the Collin's checking the meaning of the term, because there's no insult at all here.
Quote:
The Amiga community is great, but stupid in its courts.

Well, Commodore did a great job.
Quote:
And you give all the blame to Hyperion? Phe...

Not all, but a good part yes.


@Hypex Quote:
Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
How many of them can REALLY take benefit of running on different cores? How many can take benefits of ALL cores? WHO will develop such applications?

Porting a web browser would satisfy all these since they need power and on OS4 where it lacks both hardware and software acceleration it needs all the power it can get.

There's already a modern web browser ported to MorphOS, AROS, and AmigaOS4. Not up-to-date, but should be already enough for testing a "multicore" implementation.

The problem is... checking its code base (which is HUGE) to see if there's some part which needs to be protected and/or use some "multicore API".
Quote:
However, before we can even talk about OS4 multicore, we must address the elephant in the room. OS4 does not support threads. They had a chance to add actual threading where code could make use of other cores down the track.

Exactly. But using which APIs?
Quote:
Sure, you can add a child task, but that is not the same. A child task runs in the same context as the parent task. They need to add proper threads IMHO. Before they talk about AMP/BMP/SMP, other banks and picture formats, to my own MCP. Multi Core Processing.

Which is?


@OneTimer1 Quote:
OneTimer1 wrote:
@cdimauro
Quote:
I strongly doubt that also BMP can be implemented on OS4.

BMP From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia isn't an encyclopedia. But it's free, yes, for every people to edit its pages and make edit-wars.
Quote:
Basic Multilingual Plane, related to the Unicode character set
Beep Media Player, an obsolete media player related to XMMS
BMP file format, the file name extension for the Bitmap image file format
BGP Monitoring Protocol (RFC 7854), a network protocol for monitoring BGP sessions

Tell me more about your thoughts.

Please take a look at the previous page: other people had already provided sources about BMP.

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ribdevil 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 20:25:02
#209 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Jan-2010
Posts: 260
From: Vigo - Galicia - Spain

@cdimauro

Quote.
Why someone should support a company which is the source of many litigations from several years, and which is SELLING products, not even paying coders for their work?

Quote.

I suppose you refer to that company, which is dedicated to creating graphic environments for a free emulator, and charges a paste for it. Apart from trying to buy or
say they have all the rights, you mean that? For now, they will have to eliminate the word "workbench" from their ads.

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cdimauro 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 24-Mar-2019 20:37:35
#210 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@ribdevil Quote:
ribdevil wrote:
Quote:
@cdimauro

Why someone should support a company which is the source of many litigations from several years, and which is SELLING products, not even paying coders for their work?

I suppose you refer to that company, which is dedicated to creating graphic environments for a free emulator, and charges a paste for it. Apart from trying to buy or
say they have all the rights, you mean that? For now, they will have to eliminate the word "workbench" from their ads.

Wrong: Cloanto does NOT meet the first and third statements.

Try again...

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Hypex 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 25-Mar-2019 13:34:08
#211 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10021
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Well AMP is basically what WarpOS and PowerUP is a OS running independent from the main operating system on different kernel. with some strange API calls, synchronize stuff, que things and so on.


Okay I get you. Well the way that hardware works is certainly contrary to the Amiga multitasking model. It's more like co-operative multitasking. Since the 68K has to more or less be halted so the PPC can do it's thing and vice versa. Not an ideal solution. I wonder if this was a hardware limitation or if the two CPUs could run in parallel. To my knowledge OS4 and MOS are the only OS that can take full advantage of the hardware by reducing the costly context switches so CPU swaps are eliminated. And MOS the only one where a WarpOS layer was provided. Unless it provided PowerUP. I don't know.

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Hypex 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 25-Mar-2019 13:53:31
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10021
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
There's already a modern web browser ported to MorphOS, AROS, and AmigaOS4. Not up-to-date, but should be already enough for testing a "multicore" implementation.


It would be. The problem is that out of date or even slightly out of date tends to mean obsolete in the internet world. In actual use. Browsers have a large turn around. The clock ticks over and before too long there are so many changes. It's too much for the Amiga world to catch up on in time.

Quote:
The problem is... checking its code base (which is HUGE) to see if there's some part which needs to be protected and/or use some "multicore API".


That's true, but at least, the original codebase would be written with having multicore hardware in mind. So there is the threading models it supports. Which can be a starting point.

Quote:
Exactly. But using which APIs?


For starters, in Exec. There is CreateTask(). So a CreateThread() would be a next step.

That is slightly low level, so having a matching functionality to CreareNewProc() would be a good idea. In the form of an NP_Thread tag or the like.

Quote:
Which is?


My MCP idea? Well I just make it up during my reply. But the semantics of that would be to simply make use all cores on a multicore CPU. Being able to run code on cores in parallel. Within the hardware and software contraints of sharing memory across all processes.

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OlafS25 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 25-Mar-2019 17:44:50
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5761
From: Unknown

@ribdevil

as a devil you can certain offer evidence that Cloanto not paid developers

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 25-Mar-2019 18:00:32
#214 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11415
From: Norway

@OlafS25

So what % goes to developers, do we have any numbers?

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OlafS25 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 25-Mar-2019 18:37:11
#215 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5761
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

they supported bounties like aros rom replacement and supported toni

they did not persuade developers to do something for them and then did not pay like others did

Or do you know of any developers not paid by Cloanto?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Mar-2019 at 06:38 PM.

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megol 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 25-Mar-2019 21:38:37
#216 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 350
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Threads are low cost sub-processes sharing a context, switching between threads within a process is lower cost than switching between processes due to avoiding context switches.
But Amiga doesn't have contexts with protection so switching between tasks is as cheap as thread switching.

There's no need for processes and threads to add multiprocessing support, just the ability to mark tasks as multiprocessor aware and the ability to select which cores a task can run on. The default would then be non-MP, first core only.

But in the end wouldn't an incompatible rewrite with a sandbox for old programs be better?

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cdimauro 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 26-Mar-2019 6:09:23
#217 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@Hypex Quote:
Hypex wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Well AMP is basically what WarpOS and PowerUP is a OS running independent from the main operating system on different kernel. with some strange API calls, synchronize stuff, que things and so on.


Okay I get you. Well the way that hardware works is certainly contrary to the Amiga multitasking model. It's more like co-operative multitasking. Since the 68K has to more or less be halted so the PPC can do it's thing and vice versa. Not an ideal solution. I wonder if this was a hardware limitation or if the two CPUs could run in parallel. To my knowledge OS4 and MOS are the only OS that can take full advantage of the hardware by reducing the costly context switches so CPU swaps are eliminated. And MOS the only one where a WarpOS layer was provided. Unless it provided PowerUP. I don't know.

That's a benefit which comes up ONLY because both 68K and (the used) PowerPC are 32-bit and big-endian. This integration comes "for free".

But it's enough to move to a 64-bit system, still big-endian, and you miss this integration due to the different structures sizes (principally because of 32 vs 64 bit pointers).
Quote:
Quote:
Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

[quote]There's already a modern web browser ported to MorphOS, AROS, and AmigaOS4. Not up-to-date, but should be already enough for testing a "multicore" implementation.


It would be. The problem is that out of date or even slightly out of date tends to mean obsolete in the internet world. In actual use. Browsers have a large turn around. The clock ticks over and before too long there are so many changes. It's too much for the Amiga world to catch up on in time.

Then you can imagine what can happen if you start patching the browser code to support multicore on Amiga-/like o.ses..
Quote:
Quote:
The problem is... checking its code base (which is HUGE) to see if there's some part which needs to be protected and/or use some "multicore API".


That's true, but at least, the original codebase would be written with having multicore hardware in mind. So there is the threading models it supports. Which can be a starting point.

Quote:
Exactly. But using which APIs?


For starters, in Exec. There is CreateTask(). So a CreateThread() would be a next step.

That is slightly low level, so having a matching functionality to CreareNewProc() would be a good idea. In the form of an NP_Thread tag or the like.

Quote:
Which is?


My MCP idea? Well I just make it up during my reply. But the semantics of that would be to simply make use all cores on a multicore CPU. Being able to run code on cores in parallel. Within the hardware and software contraints of sharing memory across all processes

megol already replied on that part: you don't need new APIs for this.

And just to clarify: SMP and BMP o.ses don't provide new APIs to be used by applications just to enable "multicode support", except some to better and more efficiently share/lock/own resources. It's the o.s. itself that takes care of spreading the processes (and threads) on the available cores, according to its policies.

That's something that you cannot do it with Amiga-/like o.ses. Here you need ad-hoc APIs to signal the o.s. what megol stated above. Which is essentially an AMP implementation.

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Trixie 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 26-Mar-2019 11:05:53
#218 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1948
From: Czech Republic

@all the SMP/AMP/BMP posters

This is off topic here. Could you please start a new thread to share your wisdom?

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cdimauro 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 29-Mar-2019 5:54:05
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2096
From: Germany

@Trixie: if you take a look at the previous comments, it was Steven that talked SEVERAL times about "multicore support" (is *still* a priority). Why didn't you complained before?

Since it was Hyperion team/tech lead and he was the one which spread this promise, it would nice to know:
- what he (technically) want to mean with "multicore";
- if some work was made and in that case the status (e.g.: were at least the APIs defined?);
- how many "two more weeks" are needed to complete it.

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Trixie 
Re: Hyperion Fires Team Lead and Core Developer
Posted on 29-Mar-2019 8:45:36
#220 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1948
From: Czech Republic

@cdimauro

Quote:
it was Steven that talked SEVERAL times about "multicore support" (is *still* a priority). Why didn't you complained before?

Two reasons. First: because at that point, the thread hadn't yet derailed into a complete off-topic one. Second: Steven only mentioned multicore several times because he was repeatedly forced to defend his opinion that multicore is a priority.

And if you take a look at my post, I addressed "all the SMP/AMP/BMP posters". By this I mean "all" of them, including Steven. The problem indeed deserves its own thread, so feel free to start one, anybody.

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