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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 28-Jul-2023 17:07:22
#341 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12856
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

[quote]
NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

[quote]2. Compiler differences. gcc, the compiler used on the Mac, currently can't do some of the more complex optimizations that Visual Studio can on the PC. Especially when inlining small functions, the PC has an advantage. Add to this that the PowerPC has a higher overhead for functional calls, and not having as much inlining drops frame rates another few percentage points.


On Macintosh PPC / MacOS9 i susspect that be Symantic C++ compiler, not the typical GCC, they had some speical needs due to there Pascall legacy, non standard delcarations for strings etc. soft floats, so called FIX POINT or something.

IBM has had there own C compilers, but its not free, I not sure what platforms they support.

The problem with Barefeat's benchmark method is the use of 1600x1200 resolution which partly shifts the bottleneck toward the GPU. A real CPU benchmark would remove GPU as the bottleneck i.e. benchmark with lower resolution. [/quote]

With modern games with discrete GPUs, lower latency with CPU pipelines, cache, and I/O bus (northbridge) also matters e.g. Athlon FX-55 has a similar instruction set to Pentium IV / Xeon, but with different results.
[/quote]


Looks like we are talking about completely different things.
Doom3 was 2004, so are in MacOSX, and see clearly stated GCC, that also make sense..
in any case GCC gotten many updates sense then, inclining should not be an issue anymore.

Quote:

@Hammer

Athlon FX-55 has integrated Northbridge which has lower latencies.


Yeh thatís something effects speed.

XE/SE/440/460 not being cache coherent.
While Pegasus II/X1000/X5000/X1222 are cache coherent.

Big difference in speed, there it seems. I remember first Pentiums had external data cache, on some of the motherboards, and it was optional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cache_on_a_stick
I remember thinking it was strange, at the time.

Quote:

https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/athlon%2064%20fx55_10180471040/5064.png


3800+ thatís old DDR ram?
X1000 has DDR2 and X5000 and A1222 has DDR3 RAM, that helps, for large data transfers.

of course transfer speed GFX card, is limited, only have 4x PCIe gen1 slot in the A1222 same as Sam460. So thatís around 1.000 GB/s.

X1000 has 2 x full 16x PCIe slots, and two 2x PCIe slots, if gen2, then is 8.000 GB/s, if its gen1, its 4.000 GB/s. pretty sure its gen2. Pretty sure M2 disk preforms around 1.000 GB/s in a PCIe 2x slot.

https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/power-architecture/qoriq-communication-processors/p-series/qoriq-p5020-and-p5010-64-bit-dual-and-single-core-communications-processors:P5020
X5020 is also has 2.0 slot, so max 8.000 GB/s.
V2.0 standard came in 2007, so when DOOM3 was released that did not exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express

not sure long / short pipelines is interesting or relevant, old x86 cpuís run extremely hot, not sure thatís a good thingÖ.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 05:13 PM.

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Rob 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 28-Jul-2023 18:53:56
#342 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6367
From: S.Wales

@NutsAboutAmiga

PCIe in the X1000 is 1st gen and if you put cards in both x16 slots they downgrade to x8. The x16 slot on the X5000 is electrically x8 2nd gen. So both have the same bandwidth on the x16 slot but the x1 slots in the X5000 have twice the bandwidth compared to X1000.

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saimo 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 28-Jul-2023 21:23:11
#343 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2466
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I donít think there much interest in the 68k community to fund it, it wonít run their favorite 68k games. and fundamental lack of interest for writing portable code, that does not bang the Amiga chipsets. The PiStrom / Emu68 is perfect solution to 68k community, as they can continue writing bad code, that does not care about the OS, because JIT compiler lives outside of the OS its running, similar to how an emulator does it, except motherboard and chipsets are real.

(boldface by me)

Still crusading?!?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 28-Jul-2023 21:45:44
#344 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12856
From: Norway

@saimo

It was no direct at you, itís just general ideology.
itís not crusade itís my opinion about the subject, you donít need to take it to heart.
its free world everyone can do what they want.

Iím not against AMOS or anything, I wrote Amos Kittens to run AMOS programs.

I know it annoys you, but such is life, we canít all agree on everything.

Iím not crusading against Classic Amiga!!! You make it sound so negative!!

Iím a supporter of writing programs that works on peopleís different hardware configurations, without having to enable / disable instruction and data caches, and having to unplug ram upgrades, or having to in the worst case use an emulator.

Iím also huge fan software that can use best sound quality and graphic configuration available on the system like A1222 (see Topic). Software like that I call well written software. And also, big fan of software improves because it finds a FPU, AltiVec or SPE and can take advantage of the hardware available to make software even better or faster, on system its running.

I think it be great if software can take advantage of my second CPU core that is not being used at the moment.

Iím not fan of games, where canít save, stops downloads, or maybe the OS crash or freeze.
There are lots software on Amiga does not work, unless you have kickstart 1.2 or even 1.1, some of that software got improved and some of software, no one remembers anymore

Running DEMOS on Amiga can be really painful, donít start unless you have exactly 2mb of chip ram, have correct kickstart, have except CPU settings, and sometime pepale even have code that detects WinUAE and it simply prints ďUAE detected, get real hardware LamerĒ, and quits..

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:26 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:20 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:12 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:12 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:07 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 09:54 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 28-Jul-2023 22:45:04
#345 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12856
From: Norway

@saimo

Also I most point out Iím not against knowledge of learning 680x0 assembler, it useful as fundamental understanding of hardware, and how computers work, however it does not need to be 680x0 assembler, but you also get that from learning 6504, Z80 or 6802/6804 or something like that, ARM or PowerPC assembler as well, knowledge is never a bad thing.

I used my knowledge of hardware to improve NallePuh, a few more programs and games work, without needing EUAE, it can come in handy. It can also come in handy in reverse engineering project to fix old software, thatís also something I have done with my 680x0 assembler knowledge. So I wonít say writing assembler is bad thing. However, I do advice against it, just because so often not necessary, and having portable code, is far better. And I do not think itís the most readable language, this makes hard to maintain.

My personal experience.

I think C/C++, Pascal, Python, C# are good languages I recommend.

languages I wonít recommend is:

PHP, and Ruby.

Ruby is bad, because itís a hell to setup, and itís a slow language.
And their better alternatives like Phyton.

Don't waste your time with ASP however its the same vb code, in some cases vb code is useful in the same way AREXX is useful.

PHP is inconsistent, they canít decide on writing style, and its slow, and had lots of exploits in the past. Despite being popular language.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 11:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Jul-2023 at 10:53 PM.

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AmigaMac 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 3:13:27
#346 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2002
Posts: 1102
From: 3rd Rock from the Sun!

@NutsAboutAmiga

Ruby is a great scripting language to develop with. I love it as much as Python.

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 3:37:25
#347 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5559
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Looks like we are talking about completely different things.
Doom3 was 2004, so are in MacOSX, and see clearly stated GCC, that also make sense..
in any case GCC gotten many updates sense then, inclining should not be an issue anymore.

GCC updates wouldn't change PPC's design issues until they are corrected at the micro-architecture level.

Quote:

Yeh thatís something effects speed.

XE/SE/440/460 not being cache coherent.
While Pegasus II/X1000/X5000/X1222 are cache coherent.

Classic Pentium's chipsets have cache coherency. DMA IDE and DMA Sound Blasters are not major issues for Intel's classic Pentium-era chipsets.

Quote:

Big difference in speed, there it seems. I remember first Pentiums had external data cache, on some of the motherboards, and it was optional.

1st gen Pentium 60 and 66 Mhz were released in 1993 and the desktop competition was selling 68040 @ 33Mhz. Advanced Computing Environment (ACE) endorsed MIPS R4000s based workstation was the threat due to clone vendors.

Apple's PowerMac was released in 1994 while Intel released an improved classic Pentium 75/90/100 in the same 1994 year.


Quote:

3800+ thatís old DDR ram?
X1000 has DDR2 and X5000 and A1222 has DDR3 RAM, that helps, for large data transfers.

Note that AMD revisited K8 level X86-64 CPU with the netbook grade Jaguar with dual-channel DDR3-1600 and 128-bit AVX hardware (targets 256-bit AVX that is decoded into two 128-bit SIMD). 256-bit AVX conserves instruction issue slots for Jaguar's two instruction per-cycle decoders.

For the console contract after Xbox 360/PS3, AMD's Jaguar when against IBM PowerPC A2.
PowerPC A2 is the successor to PPE.

Note that AMD's K8 Athlon 64 3800+ is equipped with 128-bit SIMD with separate SIMD registers.

Both AMD Jaguar and Freescale e6500 went into full production in 2012.

Quote:

not sure long / short pipelines is interesting or relevant, old x86 cpuís run extremely hot, not sure thatís a good thingÖ.

Long pipelines are relevant for reaching higher clock speeds when a medium pipeline depth with a high clock speed design is hard.

The main reason for Apple's move towards Intel's mobile Core 2 is about heat from IBM PowerPC 970. Look in the mirror.

High clock speed desktop x86 CPU is for desktop usage. My last AMD K8 CPU was mobile varaint Turion 64.

As an example, Raspberry Pi 4's ARM Cortex A72 can reach 2.5 GHz with sufficient cooling, hence it depends on the use case and target market. An old PC CPU fan is recommended when overclocking toward 2.5 GHz. Raspberry Pi 4's ARM Cortex A72 can reach 2 Ghz (1.5V) without voiding the warranty.



Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:15 AM.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 5:33:44
#348 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5559
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@pixie

PiStorm is the adapter card, itís not the operating system, not an AROS distribution.

https://amigastore.eu/853-pistorm.html

You know I was corrected on the same thing, but its important use correct names and definitions, when talking about something, so people actually understand what your talking about.

the OS on the PI that emulates 680x0 is Emu68. And it does not behave like AmigaOS4 at all, it emulates a freaking CPU. The approaches canít be more different, the only thing thatís common is the word JIT and JIT cache.

the most important part is that 680x0 and address and databus on a PIsStorm is GPIO pins, so for example a ARM instruction wont even know concept of that, as it operates on a real databus and address bus, not imaginary one.

Emu68's approach is similar to Transmeta Code Morphing Software.
https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6120/2019fa/blog/transmeta/

Both Windows X86 (for Transmeta's case) and Amiga 68K (for Emu68) doesn't need to know about CPU translation software.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 7:18:39
#349 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5559
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
Iím not fan of games, where canít save, stops downloads, or maybe the OS crash or freeze.
There are lots software on Amiga does not work, unless you have kickstart 1.2 or even 1.1, some of that software got improved and some of software, no one remembers anymore

Running DEMOS on Amiga can be really painful, donít start unless you have exactly 2mb of chip ram, have correct kickstart, have except CPU settings, and sometime pepale even have code that detects WinUAE and it simply prints ďUAE detected, get real hardware LamerĒ, and quits..

WHDLoad can load different Kickstarts.

Between emulation and real hardware is virtualization.

It could be possible to design a virtual machine software that uses the second Emu68 instance on a second ARM CPU with native Amiga chipset access while the primary Emu68's AmigaOS/RTG host is protected.

Primary Emu68's AmigaOS/RTG host can restart the virtual machine instance.

Emu68 software would need to evolve into the hypervisor role with a CPU translator.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 7:50:29
#350 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@Hammer

pistorm change your amiga into keyboard and mouse interface for pi with emulator.
It is stupid because amiga keyboard and mouse was copied from pc 40 years ago.
Use winuae it is cheaper and better.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 7:52:53
#351 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@saimo

I wrote my last 68k assembler code more than 30 years ago.
68k assembler is worth to learn to get how computers work.
but after that it is waste of time.
it is Amiga use C/C++.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 7:56:46
#352 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

I will buy Amiga 1222 because It will be fast nice Amiga
with everything that I want in Amiga 25 years ago.
Or it will be even better. As usually Amiga NG.
And of course because it will be real thing not interface to pc with emulator.

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saimo 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 10:06:32
#353 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2466
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
its free world everyone can do what they want.

Precisely because of this, I kindly ask you to stop scorning hardware-banging code and preaching that it must not be produced.

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pixie 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 11:49:57
#354 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3211
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Hammer

pistorm change your amiga into keyboard and mouse interface for pi with emulator.
It is stupid because amiga keyboard and mouse was copied from pc 40 years ago.
Use winuae it is cheaper and better.

We already know your level of understanding regarding technology you don't have to keep telling us!

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BigD 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 13:34:40
#355 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7349
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Hammer

pistorm change your amiga into keyboard and mouse interface for pi with emulator.
It is stupid because amiga keyboard and mouse was copied from pc 40 years ago.
Use winuae it is cheaper and better.


It emulates the CPU only! The rest of the Classic system remains!

Last edited by BigD on 29-Jul-2023 at 01:51 PM.

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pixie 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 13:39:23
#356 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3211
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@BigD

It'e not that he doesn't know, he simply doesn't understand.

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 14:16:59
#357 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@jPV

how do you define "PPC level NG operating system"?

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BigD 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 14:38:05
#358 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7349
From: UK

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@jPV

how do you define "PPC level NG operating system"?


MacOS X Tiger?

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 14:43:18
#359 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

directly banging hardware was a necessity in the past and many developers today like it because they can squeeze the last percent from the hardware. It is a kind of different philosophy. Those devs want to do wonders on a defined limited hardware and do tricks instead of just expecting a more powerful graphic card or cpu. Naming it "bad code" is a harsh phrase, I would say different idea.

it is of course not possible to port such a program (mostly games) to a NG platform running natively

Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 02:47 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 02:47 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 02:47 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 14:45:07
#360 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@BigD

you could also say "morphos". I would like to have it more precise

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