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agami 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 22:45:29
#601 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1712
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Kronos wrote:
@matthey

Quote:
The retro 68k Amiga hardware market has hundreds of thousands of customers

Sure if you count everybody who at least once in the past 20 years fired up WinUAE to play 1 or to ancient games you might come to that number.

And every AmigaOS 4 user fires up their PPC Amiga every day?

Quote:
Reduce that to those either !bought! a copy of AmigaForever or some FPGA-dodad to play those same 1 or 2 games you will fall short.

There are double ups in the AmigaOS 4 numbers too: People with multiple AmigaOS 4 PPC computers.
How many A1222+ machines will be purchased by first time AmigaOS 4 users, and how many by those who already have at least one other AmigaOS 4 PPC computer?

Quote:
Now count the people that still use 68k-Amiga beyond those 1 or 2 games, substract those who will only buy genuine vintage HW and that number will have far less digit.

When counting the market size, we need to included those who will use it once or twice a year. They pay full retail price the same as a person who uses it once a week.

No matter which way you slice it, the 68k Amiga market is at least two orders of magnitude larger than the PPC AmigaNG market.



_________________
All the way, with 68k

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RobertB 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 0:09:04
#602 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Jun-2006
Posts: 1513
From: Visalia, California

matthey wrote:
Quote:
These are the same guys that sold 186,000 C64 direct to TV units in an hour.

The guys (except for Darren Melbourne) are not the same, and the number are incorrect. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV

and

https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/C64DTV

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

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Rob 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 0:46:17
#603 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6367
From: S.Wales

@agami

I don't think Kronos is here dive in front of a bullet for OS4.

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DiscreetFX 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 3:45:01
#604 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2509
From: Chicago, IL

@RobertB

Great investigation into this, Robert, thanx.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

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matthey 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 5:05:52
#605 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2135
From: Kansas

RobertB Quote:

The guys (except for Darren Melbourne) are not the same, and the number are incorrect. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV

and

https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/C64DTV


Usually an original source like Darren is strong documentary evidence.

Darren Melbourne Quote:

So we created the C64 direct to TV joystick back in 2004, it became the fastest selling toy product in QVC’s history. I think we sold 186,000 units in the first hour of trading, which was phenomenal. But it proved to us that there was still this great love for all things Commodore. So, as you rightly pointed out, the C64 then made the jump onto the Wii, and we were behind that. And again… they weren’t million sellers, but they would sell in decent numbers every month.


https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/08/a500-mini-amiga-console-interview-thats-our-passion-for-commodore-16427365/

Your wiki source is in disagreement with the documentary evidence from this older article strengthened by being recorded closer to the event but weakened by being 2nd hand information with original source unknown. There are later quotes in the article by Darren but that does not mean the earlier info came from him.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060818061809/http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7104 Quote:

Breathing life back into the Commodore 64 was the result of a pioneering combination of Ironstone Partners, DC Studios, Mammoth Toys and The Toy: Lobster Company. It has culminated in a blast from the past that has once again pushed its way into the spot light of gaming selling 70,000 units on the first day of sales in the US alone. Not bad for a 20 year old machine!


It's difficult to say if Darren forgot or there was a mistake in the article. In any case, I stand partially corrected that only Darren of the RGL team was involved.

Last edited by matthey on 10-Nov-2023 at 01:46 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 5:21:24
#606 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3709
From: Germany

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Do you know what kind of beast you can buy for much less that 1600 EUR? Take a look at Rocket Lake processors.

Correction: it should have been Raptor Lake and not Rocket Lake.

Rocket Lake is stone age now on the mainstream PC market, albeit it could be considered Sci-Fi for the UnderPower(ed)PC/CraPowerPC one.


@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:

No matter which way you slice it, the 68k Amiga market is at least two orders of magnitude larger than the PPC AmigaNG market.

Exactly. And that's the reason why the post-Amiga vendors are now involved on 68k products: because here is the very big part of the cake.

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pavlor 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 6:58:53
#607 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Do you know what kind of beast you can buy for much less that 1600 EUR? Take a look at Raptor Lake processors


Well, sustained single core performance is most important design choice here, I will probably opt for some AMD APU.

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BillE 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 9:30:22
#608 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Nov-2003
Posts: 1195
From: Northern Scotland

@agami

Quote:
And every AmigaOS 4 user fires up their PPC Amiga every day?


Well I do. I use it for just about everything. I am sure most other OS4 users do too.
It may no longer be cutting edge but beats the hell out of the old 68k machines.

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pavlor 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 9:59:42
#609 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@BillE

Not everyday here. I'm staying out of my computers during most of the week, because I'm forced to work with computers and my eyes need some rest. During weekends, it depends on video game I play: right now it is classic Baldurs Gate which works both on Pegasos 2 and my PCs, that one I play on my cheap notebook, because it is quite silent. Pegasos 2 on the other hand is better suited for my Jedi Knight 2 playthrough, as its loud fan makes a perfect ambient for that game.

Quote:
It may no longer be cutting edge but beats the hell out of the old 68k machines.


Well, one can't really compare G4 1266 MHz and Radeon 9250 to anything in the 68k world. I like my 68k machines, but these are in a safe storage now. I regularly use only 3 computers: my 6 years old cheap laptop (Core i3 5005U spiced up by 8 GB RAM and 2 TB SSD), Pegasos 2 desktop with above mentioned specs and an old netbook for playing during short travels.

I'm quite sure I could find a place for the A1222 (I fear 20 years old Pegasos 2 will not last forever ), but the price feels too high. On the other hand, its ultra obscure nature is really appealing to me, only the X1000 with its exotic CPU would be more attractive for me and these aren't for sale anymore.

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amigang 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 11:16:29
#610 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2048
From: Cheshire, England

@agami

Quote:
That's plainly wrong. It was evident already on 2000 that PowerPCs weren't competitive anymore. Maybe you don't know it, but even Apple, which co-founded the PowerPC consortium, was about to abandon its PowerPCs on 2000 and moving on Intel's x86 (the first version of MacOS X was already running on those processors. And this was the MAIN hardware platform: PowerPC was the second / backup). This decision was postponed by 5 years only because a rampant IBM manager (which was the former Freescale CEO, AFAIR) promised to Steve Jobs the infamous G5. In short: going to PowerPC on 2001 (the year when it was decided to go for OS4) was already a bad decision.


Dont forget it wasn't just Apple, games consoles, like Gamecube, Wii, PS3, Xbox 360 all went PPC base, it still had a lot of momentum behind it until 2007 Id say.

I think from that point it was clear with Apple out of the market, the issues Devs had with games on PPC consoles, the momentum of PPC really slowed down.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

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amigang 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 11:31:16
#611 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2048
From: Cheshire, England

@matthey
Quote:
Perhaps you should update your website with the lower price of Sam460LE at €729 instead of the €950 price you have now? Maybe add a link to the Same460LE on the Acube website as they deserve credit for good management and controlling their costs? https://amigang.com/hardware-a-cube-amigaone-sam/ After over 20 years of PPC AmigaNOne, your website is one of the best sources for AmigaNOne hardware. I expect other Amiga hardware gets more hits though. Do you have stats on which hardware pages on your website have the most traffic?


Yes I know some of the stuff on my site is a bit out of date and needs improving, as for stats here you go,


You can clearly see emulation product, like the A500mini or pi images are the biggest traffic to my site, but the interest in A1222 has been pretty strong, which is why it is a shame about the price. (these stats are kinda not for the life span of the site, as i only move to Wordpress in 2020, not too sure if I had Jetpack up and running then thats tracks this stuff, but it from arund then, I think my X1000 pages got a lot of hit before then. Maybe even close to A500mini interest I had, being one of the few website that cover AmigaNG stuff exclusively.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

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OldFart 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 12:44:29
#612 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3063
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@agami

Quote:
And every AmigaOS 4 user fires up their PPC Amiga every day?

Well, I *used* to, especially in Autumn and Winter months, as during the other months the machine got stored and I was not around. But nowadays it's just sitting there, broken, and seemingly no way in hell to get in touch with the predominant sales company about this. Tempted to fire up my circularsaw table and cut the board, an X5k (modelnumber indicates pricetag), in some 16 neat pieces and be done with the whole, severly overpriced, sh!t anyways. It's 'Deadend Gulch' whichever way you look at it.

Have fun while it lasts!

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

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Matt3k 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 13:01:27
#613 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 230
From: NY

@OldFart

Sad to hear that your system broke and that you can't get it fixed. That sucks!

I will give kudos to Bill Buck when I owned my Peg II, he sent me new processors 2 times even out of warrantee for free, and the last one had a better designed heatsink so it wouldn't fail.

Sadly, no one gives a crap like that now and even if you buy it a x5k new and it's broken, you get jerked around for years like that poor chap who posted a while ago. You spend a small fortune for no support or value.

Then even if you get it fixed, what new software would you even run on it? The OS is so stale, there is not a lot to do with it. That is bigger of an issue in Amiga, no good software.

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PhantomInterrogative 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 13:14:57
#614 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Sep-2004
Posts: 809
From: The Interrogative Lair

@thread

I was the part of the potential market for the Tabor/A1222+. I sold my SAM460 lite back in 2015 when putting food on the table was more important than having a NG Amiga. I had hoped for a low cost AmigaOS 4.x machine to materialize with the 2015 announcement of the Tabor. In the past seven years though, I have been using WinUAE and good old AmigaOS 3.1 on a thumb drive using either my work computer, or the local library computer (free PC usage!). Performance-wise it has been much faster than my old SAM460 in working with ImageFX and Aladdin 4D.

Although I liked some of the features of OS 4.x, I've seen the 68k hardware market explode in terms of high performance offerings. If I wanted to ditch the thumb drive WinUAE for a dedicated "Amiga," all I would need would be a Raspberry Pi. If I had a little more money, I could even afford to buy a used A500 and a PiStorm. Even the Vampire standalone is less expensive than the A1222+ (I remember some of the Tabor defenders saying that it would cost the same for a lot more performance... not anymore). I would need to rob a bank to afford the A1222+ or X5000. Since, I have worked for law enforcement for the past 16 years, I'm sure bank robbing would look bad on my resume.

I haven't put OS4.x completely out of my mind; however, I'd have to get a great paying job to be able to afford the HW. Right now, the 68k/emulation route seems far more affordable for the likes of me.

_________________
I sold my SAM460ex lite... waiting for money to buy a Raspberry Pi... or a Classic A1000 with Buffee... or an A1222... and OS4.3 FE update 11

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pavlor 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 13:24:52
#615 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9608
From: Unknown

@Matt3k

Quote:
Then even if you get it fixed, what new software would you even run on it? The OS is so stale, there is not a lot to do with it. That is bigger of an issue in Amiga, no good software.


Well, I'm half-retro inclined and use Pegasos 2 mostly to play old games. OS4 nicely fits into that purpose as a somewhat modernized OS (but not too much), I even use my own "Ultra Classic" OS3-like theme, which looks really well with compositing transparency effects. Being able to run variety of old games either native (eg. Jedi Knight 2), or via emulators (eg. Master of Orion 2) is a satisfying eperience for me. And being able to edit my documents with AbiWord and Gnumeric is a nice bonus. As you see my demands are quite limited.

There are only few things that would make my OS4 experience better: eg. less loud machine (well not that big deal), or better portability (Pegasos 2 is not much useable as a laptop ).

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redfox 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 17:09:35
#616 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 2072
From: Canada

@agami

Quote:
And every AmigaOS 4 user fires up their PPC Amiga every day?


I use my ancient OS4 system approx three days a week. It is 19 years old.


redfox

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Matt3k 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 17:48:13
#617 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 230
From: NY

@redfox

Cheers!

What software do you use on it?

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Kronos 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 18:42:07
#618 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2602
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:

These are the same guys that sold 186,000 C64 direct to TV units in an hour.


So?

I had 0 contact with C64 but somehow I ended up buying one which ended up sitting in some drawer pretty soon.

C64 is the cult computer that everybody from 10 to 100 knows about.
Amiga is the cult computer remembered by middle aged nerds.

So "100s of 1000" costumers is pure delusion just like it was pure delusion when in 2002 Bunny Hormons proclaimed that the needed to sell 50000 OS4 copies to make it a viable platform. Double delusional as reaching that number wasn't even an option even if their HW was great and they somehow managed to stick to their initial timeframe without having any competition, and bonus delusion in that 59k would be a viable platform.

Sure there is a great retro wave atm, money can be made, many are already trying to make money in that market. A market that has a clear saturation point as most users don't care about anything that would go beyond being able to play those 1 or 2 games they loved 30+ years ago.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

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matthey 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 19:20:49
#619 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2135
From: Kansas

amigang Quote:

Yes I know some of the stuff on my site is a bit out of date and needs improving, as for stats here you go,

You can clearly see emulation product, like the A500mini or pi images are the biggest traffic to my site, but the interest in A1222 has been pretty strong, which is why it is a shame about the price. (these stats are kinda not for the life span of the site, as i only move to Wordpress in 2020, not too sure if I had Jetpack up and running then thats tracks this stuff, but it from arund then, I think my X1000 pages got a lot of hit before then. Maybe even close to A500mini interest I had, being one of the few website that cover AmigaNG stuff exclusively.


Interesting, thanks. I expected THEA500 Mini, RPi Amiga emulation and FPGA Amigas to be popular but there were some surprises like AROS being the most popular OS and A1222+ being the most popular AmigaOS 4 hardware. It looks like the popularity is trendy explaining some of the results. Some of your info and reviews are better or more complete than others perhaps making a difference too.

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redfox 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Nov-2023 21:32:28
#620 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 2072
From: Canada

@Matt3k

Quote:
What software do you use on it?


I use my OS4 system for web browsing, writing, drawing and tinkering.

AWeb
IBrowse
NetSurf
Odyssey
Origyn
NotePad
MultiView
Final Writer 97
IgnitionOS4 spreadsheet software
Cloanto Personal Paint (aka PPaint)
TVPaint
AmigaAMP

I tried out all the web browsers made available for OS4 over the years,
and kept these five, AWeb, IBrowse, NetSurf, Odyssey and Origyn.

IBrowse 2.5.9 is currently my favourite. Each one has good features but none compare to Wayfarer.

I like to tinker with ARexx, RxMUI and ProAction just for fun and learning as I go.

RxMUI allows me to create MUI GUI for my Arexx programs.
ProAction allows me to create ReAction GUI for my ARexx programs.


For some very old games, I use E-UAE to emulate the Classic Amiga chip set.

AmigaOS3 running on E-UAE running on AmigaOS4.


My OS4 system is ancient, aquired in 2004.

MicroA1-C with IBM PPC 750 GX CPU and 256 MB RAM.
Onboard ATI Radeon 7000 with 32 MB graphics RAM.

AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 2 (with hotfix),
plus selected portions of Enhancer Software 2.2



redfox


Last edited by redfox on 10-Nov-2023 at 09:44 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 10-Nov-2023 at 09:42 PM.

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