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kolla 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 12:17:13
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2950
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:


kolla Quote:

So you’re saying FPGA adds value now?


High performance FPGA CPUs not being competitive with ASIC CPUs does not mean FPGAs lack value. FPGAs are an incredibly valuable tool and smaller FPGAs have advantages in production where versatility and updates are important. FPGAs are great for chipset simulation and relatively simple CPU simulation.


Well, that's a stark contrast to what you wrote earlier...
Quote:
FPGA based Amiga hardware doesn't offer much value either.


Let's count the systems...
* Minimig - the original, with OCS/ECS on FPGA and real 68SEC000
* Various Minimig clones in different formfactors, all with either real 68000 variant or socket DIP64 socket that can hold CPUs and cards, from plan 68000 to PiStorm.
* MiST - Minimig OCS/ECS/AGA and TG68/000/010/020 all on FPGA
* Various MiST clones, the MiSS boards, unAmiga, SiDi, SiDi-128...
* iComp's Chameleon and Turbo Chameleon v2, also with Mimimig cores.
* MiSTer - Minimig OCS/ECS/AGA and F68k or TG68/020
* FleaFPGA - Minimig OCS/ECS and TG68/020 (but old and buggy)
* ... I have probable forgotten some

And in addition to this there's also FPGA-Arcade and the (pardon my pun!) Vampire SAGA...

I would say that all in all, FPGA based Amiga hardware offers quite a lot of value, they certainly do for me (Minimig v1.1, MiST, MiSTer, 2 x FleaFPGA... oh and, eh... V500v2 and V600v2)

And who knows what in the future, people are experimenting...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 13:47:27
#62 ]
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Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

chipset it was nice but up to ECS up to 1992
aga is just dumb framebuffer
aga has nothing special compared to 1992 SVGA
and in 2024 normal tv don't display video from chipset
so no reasons to keep chipset

cpu other than pc is one and only thing from original amiga that still matter

we amiga users use amiga ppc because it is real amiga that has eveything that classic amiga have to have other cpu than in pc
and because it is better than enything that commodore made after amiga 3000

karlos, agami stop trolling start working on mui

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utri007 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 14:16:25
#63 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Aug-2003
Posts: 1079
From: United States of Europe

@hardwaretech

Amiga is a hobby, not a general-purpose computer. You can put a price on a hobby, BUT only for yourself. Others do what they want to do.

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pixie 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 18:22:53
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@ppcamiga1

Sometimes I wish I knew how to code, just so that I didn't write a single line of code of MUI!

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g01df1sh 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 19:46:07
#65 ]
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Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1779
From: UK

So Pistorm emu68k has CPU emulation wifi access rtg GFX. How much more is needed for a standalone version for Rpi so no original Amiiga is required.

Chipset done in hardware Vampire team could help with this if they wanted to work together.





Last edited by g01df1sh on 14-May-2024 at 07:46 PM.

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pixie 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 19:52:54
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@g01df1sh

The best of Pistorm is that it can access chips. You have emulators running already with RTG WiFi at a decent speed on RPI. You would have to tweak workbench, and then you would be left without most of games, or run another emulator. Emu afaik already runs standalone on rpi

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Karlos 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 20:35:40
#67 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

For the avoidance of doubt, I would love a high end 68K ASIC. I just don't see it as a realistic prospect. FPGA would seem to be the pragmatic zenith of hardware 68K implementation.

We need a different term for describing the PiStorm solution. Simply calling it an emulator sets the wrong expectations and doesn't do it any justice. It presents as a hardware implementation that interfaces physically and electronically with the host.

I think it might best be referred to as an ICE (In Circuit Emulated) implementation for the CPU. The rest of what it has to offer is bonafide hardware.

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matthey 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 22:17:39
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2064
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

Well, that's a stark contrast to what you wrote earlier...


Context is important. Let me clarify.

FPGAs offer value for simulating a small CPU, a chipset, integer DSP and SIMD units and even a small GPU.

FPGAs offer limited value for simulating a high performance CPU, a FPU, a modern GPU because of size and a modern SoC because of size.

A FPGA is fine for recreating and replacing original 68k Amiga hardware up to about a 68030 and AGA. This market is limited to 68k Amiga users with failing hardware. Yes, it has value to a niche group of Amiga users and may attract a few Amiga fans to return to the active Amiga community but is not appealing to most Amiga users with working hardware as it is not an upgrade and it is not attractive to anyone outside of Amiga fans because better value can be found with ASIC hardware that offers much better value (performance/$) like RPi hardware.

kolla Quote:

And who knows what in the future, people are experimenting...


Trying to match the performance of hardware with software and firmware layers is like the Holy Grail search for a perpetual machine. The closest attempts were probably "code morphing" layers for VLIW CPUs and they failed. Performance approached that of full ASIC CISC and RISC CPUs but they use more resources in the process. Software emulation and even FPGA hardware simulation are less efficient at resource usage too. Eventually, there likely will be a different medium for placing logic on than silicon chips but until then we are stuck with slowing chip improvements that offer the best value for custom logic. The subsidization of chip foundries by nations for national security reasons has made chip fabrication unusually cheap and provides an opportunity for smaller players to become competitive.

pixie Quote:

The best of Pistorm is that it can access chips. You have emulators running already with RTG WiFi at a decent speed on RPI. You would have to tweak workbench, and then you would be left without most of games, or run another emulator. Emu afaik already runs standalone on rpi


There are already emulators and even whole distributions like RetroPie made for the RPi. The fact that people would rather use real Amiga hardware instead says something. The RPi retro emulation experience is not the greatest even on the RPi 4 despite the low price.

https://www.tomshardware.com/features/retro-gaming-raspberry-pi-vs-pc-vs-retro-minis

The article considers the PC the winner because emulation is free but they are actually using expensive hardware for the emulation and not considering the price because "everyone has one". I was surprised to see the emulation using Minis do so well in the test so it must be effective to use a more RTOS. Disabling the MMU would help a lot to reduce jitter and improve responsiveness on lower end hardware. The Minis are generally not as cheap as the RPi but oddly, the RPi 4 has a more powerful CPU than most of them. Too bad they didn't test a MiSTer which I expect would give the best experience but at a cost often greater than original consoles. Games images can be obtained cheaper which at least partially offsets this though. MiSTer is pretty much the ultimate versatile retro device but the price, heat and modular Frankenstein mess is less than desirable. More integration and using a real CPU for the more demanding CPUs would help. The most popular and demanding CPU is a 68k while a 6502 is easy enough to simulate in FPGA. There is some SuperH, MIPS and ARM in later consoles but they become challenging to accurately simulate both the CPU and chipset anyway. The 68k is unusual that there are several 68k computers including Amiga, Atari, Mac, NeXT Computers, x68000, Sinclair QL, 68k workstations, etc. that likely could benefit from a higher performance 68k CPU while consoles like the Mega Drive/Genesis and NeoGeo are less likely to. The CD32 is a console that benefits from a more powerful 68k CPU making it rather unique for an early console.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 14-May-2024 22:22:35
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@Karlos

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/1568533

Consistency is one of FPGA’s biggest advantage, no messy OS in background to screw up timing, I think FPGA’s has place, in video processing and perhaps as glue chip.

I think I have seen a few MiniMigs with PiStrom’s, FPGA for chipset, and JIT for the CPU emulation, it makes perfect sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF5_k5w-4tM

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agami 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 3:57:11
#70 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@ppcamiga0.5

You must be in a very nice institution since they let you access the internet every now and then.

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agami 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 4:25:38
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@utri007

Quote:
utri007 wrote:
@hardwaretech

Amiga is a hobby, not a general-purpose computer.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
...
Dylan Thomas

Some of us do not accept this relegation.
If it's acceptable for it to be a nostalgia trip for some, then it is equally acceptable for it to be the echo of an unspoken promise of what it could be again.

Were you not around in early 2010 when the attempts at viral marketing for the upcoming A1 X1000 with Xena + Xorro were using all the comeback words, and none of the hobby words?
And now, when the whole enterprise has failed, on both the hardware and OS front, it is conveniently a "hobby"?
What is this hobby? Running ports of late '90s and early 2000s open sourced PC games on a bandwidth crippled Radeon PCIe graphics card?

Y'all can hide behind this "hobby" veneer, but I also know y'all would be first in line if somebody actually released a modern general-purpose Amiga computer, with a new and contemporary Amiga OS, with all the daily driver apps which are facsimiles of those found on Windows and macOS.
If one would prefer the latter over some hobby breadcrumbs, then one looses all self respect and integrity every time they defend the current state with proclamations of how it's a "hobby".
That word should sour in your mouths, and you should be happy that it burns as you swallow it back down, unuttered.

Last edited by agami on 15-May-2024 at 04:27 AM.
Last edited by agami on 15-May-2024 at 04:26 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 5:19:40
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5367
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
chipset it was nice but up to ECS up to 1992
aga is just dumb framebuffer
aga has nothing special compared to 1992 SVGA
and in 2024 normal tv don't display video from chipset
so no reasons to keep chipset

cpu other than pc is one and only thing from original amiga that still matter

we amiga users use amiga ppc because it is real amiga that has eveything that classic amiga have to have other cpu than in pc
and because it is better than enything that commodore made after amiga 3000

karlos, agami stop trolling start working on mui


After owning an A500 Rev5, two A500 Rev6A, A3000/030 (25Mhz) and A1200, I prefer the A1200 (8 MB Fast RAM card, TF1260 and PiStorm32).

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BigD 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 7:01:14
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
chipset it was nice but up to ECS up to 1992
aga is just dumb framebuffer
aga has nothing special compared to 1992 SVGA


Under MagicTV under AGA you could undertake productivity packages in Hi-Res laced on a 14" TV virtually flicker free! Banshee, Slam Tilt and Guardian were awesome! The OCS/ECS era was not good enough to put the ST in the shade! AGA brought lots of excitement!

Last edited by BigD on 15-May-2024 at 07:02 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 13:22:55
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5367
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:
The article considers the PC the winner because emulation is free but they are actually using expensive hardware for the emulation

Define expensive with a lame duck as AMD Ryzen 5 3600 CPU, AMD Radeon RX 5500 graphics, and 2x 8GB DDR4 Ballistix 3600 MHz.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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Hammer 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 13:24:20
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5367
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Karlos

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/1568533

Consistency is one of FPGA’s biggest advantage, no messy OS in background to screw up timing, I think FPGA’s has place, in video processing and perhaps as glue chip.

I think I have seen a few MiniMigs with PiStrom’s, FPGA for chipset, and JIT for the CPU emulation, it makes perfect sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF5_k5w-4tM


For 50 hz PAL, FreeSync or GSync is needed. 60 hz wouldn't fit 50 hz PAL.

Last edited by Hammer on 15-May-2024 at 01:25 PM.

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pixie 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 13:35:41
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Hammer
If only they brought back crts again....

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ppcamiga1 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 16:10:01
#77 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

as long as regular tv display video from chipset
chipset has some sense
after swith to digital tv chipset is worth nothing
no reason to use it

on pc aros is still not good as windows so no reason to switch to pc

only valid option is rtg/ng




agami stop trolling start working on mui



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kolla 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 17:53:00
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2950
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

So you believe the amiga chips output analogue video signal?

Last edited by kolla on 15-May-2024 at 05:53 PM.

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matthey 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 15-May-2024 21:26:02
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2064
From: Kansas

Quote:
hardwaretech
Amiga is a hobby, not a general-purpose computer.


agami Quote:

Some of us do not accept this relegation.
If it's acceptable for it to be a nostalgia trip for some, then it is equally acceptable for it to be the echo of an unspoken promise of what it could be again.

Were you not around in early 2010 when the attempts at viral marketing for the upcoming A1 X1000 with Xena + Xorro were using all the comeback words, and none of the hobby words?
And now, when the whole enterprise has failed, on both the hardware and OS front, it is conveniently a "hobby"?
What is this hobby? Running ports of late '90s and early 2000s open sourced PC games on a bandwidth crippled Radeon PCIe graphics card?

Y'all can hide behind this "hobby" veneer, but I also know y'all would be first in line if somebody actually released a modern general-purpose Amiga computer, with a new and contemporary Amiga OS, with all the daily driver apps which are facsimiles of those found on Windows and macOS.
If one would prefer the latter over some hobby breadcrumbs, then one looses all self respect and integrity every time they defend the current state with proclamations of how it's a "hobby".
That word should sour in your mouths, and you should be happy that it burns as you swallow it back down, unuttered.


Good points and well written. Where are the PPC NG fan boys boasting of the PPC Amiga "desktop" superiority and evolution? Wasn't the primary motivation of PPC NG hardware more modern hardware for the desktop? Did PPC NG Amigas become hobby computers when PPC hardware fell further behind modern desktop hardware than 68k hardware was behind PPC NG hardware or when PPC NG Amiga hardware fell behind low cost hobby computer hardware?

Hobby computers can be better performance than PPC hardware, general purpose, mass produced and affordable. Modern hobby computers are often more advanced than old desktop computers. This is because modern desktop and hobby computers keep advancing which PPC NG hardware stopped doing over a decade ago. The hobby computer label is actually good as it allows more versatile hardware and marketing than the desktop label. This is why the RPi Foundation still sells hobby computers despite the high end RPi hobby hardware often being used like a low end desktop. The original RPi hardware performance was below PPC NG performance and even behind the 68060 in performance in some ways.

CPU core | fab tech | clock | DMIPS/MHz | DMIPS
6502 8000nm 1MHz ? ?
68000 3500nm 8MHz 0.16 1.3
68060 500nm 50MHz 1.80 90
PPC601 600nm 66MHz 1.41 93
PPC750 260nm 233MHz 2.25 525 (G3)
P5020 45nm 2000MHz 3.0 6000 (X5000)
QorIQ-P1022/e500v2 45nm 1200MHz 2.4 2880 (A1222)
ARM1176JZF-S 40nm 700MHz 1.25 875 (RPi)
Cortex-A7 40nm 900MHz 1.90 1710 (RPi 2)
Cortex-A53 40nm 1200MHz 2.30 2760 (RPi 3)
Cortex-A72 28nm 1800MHz 5.45 9810 (RPi 4)
Cortex-A76 16nm 2400MHz 6.60 15840 (RPi 5)

The original RPi ARM1176JZF-S in-order CPU core is scalar and has lower integer performance/MHz than the in-order superscalar 68060 on ancient silicon with a fraction of the caches. This RPi CPU core is less advanced than the 68060 and larger but the newer silicon allows it to easily out clock the 68060 and provide more performance. All PPC cores above are more advanced with limited OoO and superscalar providing better integer performance/MHz. The RPi Foundation started with this primitive CPU core using basically 1990s technology to build a business that has sold ~50 million "hobby" computers in ~12 years while maybe 5000 PPC NG "desktop" computers have sold in ~22 years. Why wasn't 1990s 68k Amiga technology used to create hobby computers instead, followed by incremental upgrades like for the RPi? Why wasn't the original 68k Amiga upgraded with incremental upgrades?

Hammer Quote:

Define expensive with a lame duck as AMD Ryzen 5 3600 CPU, AMD Radeon RX 5500 graphics, and 2x 8GB DDR4 Ballistix 3600 MHz.


An under $10 USD SoC should be able to emulate these older games reasonably well. This is what the Minis are likely using with a light RTOS not using the MMU, like an original 68k Amiga. Desktop class CPUs and SoCs are big, expensive, power hungry, hot and overkill. There is no free lunch just because expensive hardware is already owned and lunch previously payed for.

kolla Quote:

So you believe the amiga chips output analogue video signal?


Can you imagine someone telling their kids how they used to walk up hill both ways to and from school and how they owned one of them analog 68k Amiga computers before digital PPC computers came along?

Last edited by matthey on 16-May-2024 at 02:04 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 16-May-2024 at 02:49 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 15-May-2024 at 09:33 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: from the specs I was able to look up
Posted on 16-May-2024 8:19:52
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@g01df1sh

As far as I know Michal planned that for the future

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