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      /  This is getting a bit insane...
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Jose 
This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 1:52:48
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 934
From: Unknown

I had seen crazy prices but it's becoming the norm...
Is it really that hard to make classic hardware ? The excuse that there isn't a market just seems untrue with these auction prices. Like this there's no way I'm gonna get PPC hardware ever.
HERE

Last edited by Jose on 14-Jul-2008 at 01:55 AM.

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CodeSmith 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 2:00:10
#2 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Jose

Supply and demand mate. It blows my mind that someone would pay that much, but I guess the buyer thought he was getting a fair deal else he wouldn't have agreed to it.

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Jose 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 2:07:33
#3 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 934
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Sure, I'm not putting any blame on either of them, my main point is that (and I guess this has probably been talked about a few times recently, I'm just not on Amiga forums as often as I used to be) these prices becoming the norm really makes producing classic hardware viable.

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logicalheart 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 3:26:07
#4 ]
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Joined: 2-Dec-2003
Posts: 693
From: Sandy, Utah. USA

@Jose

Amiga Inc. considers running OS4 final on anything a copyright violation. Remember, they tried to get a legal order which would halt even OS4 Classic. Who's going to risk another lawsuit even if there is a demand for the hardware?

Amiga Inc. threatened legal action against many groups (websites, Amithlon, H&P and others.) I think Hyperion was the only one to actually stand up against them in court. I don't know much detail on the others though.




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number6 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 3:43:18
#5 ]
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Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10837
From: In the village

@logicalheart

Quote:
Amiga Inc. threatened legal action against many groups (websites, Amithlon, H&P and others.) I think Hyperion was the only one to actually stand up against them in court.


Not exactly relating to "court", but according to Bernie:

Umisef quote:

Quote:
What I find much more interesting (or rather, telling) is that all the examples you provided, people said "bugger that" and walked away from using the AI IP. H&P instead said "bugger that" and walked away from paying for the use of the AI IP, not from the use itself....


#6

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mike 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 4:13:00
#6 ]
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Joined: 31-Jul-2007
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From: Alpha Centauri

@logicalheart

Damn, im sure a bounty would raise enough money for a hit man in no time...

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_Steve_ 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 23:12:20
#7 ]
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Joined: 18-Oct-2002
Posts: 6759
From: UK

@Jose

Last time I looked at that auction it was already £571 with over a day left.

I am sorry, but I just wouldn't pay that amount for the card now - even brand new my second one only cost £580, and the last one I got from ebay for the 1200 was £400 with a BV and 128MB ram (only an 040 model though with a 160MHz PPC unlike my CS which is 233 and 060/50 based).

Personally, I would prefer to see new hardware capable of running the OS (and if MOS works on it all the better really - as the more the merrier). This hardware should also be a reasonable specification and not cost an arm, a leg and various other internal organs.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 14-Jul-2008 23:21:35
#8 ]
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Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4880
From: New York, USA

@Jose

Quote:

Jose wrote:
I had seen crazy prices but it's becoming the norm...
Is it really that hard to make classic hardware ? The excuse that there isn't a market just seems untrue with these auction prices. Like this there's no way I'm gonna get PPC hardware ever.
HERE



728.80 British Pounds for hardware that can't run OS 4.1 when it comes out and likely never will? I want to get to try OS 4.0 as much as the next guy, but I would not buy hardware at such a premium that could not handle 4.1 at this point. On the plus side, since these cards can't run OS 4.1 maybe that will help bring down the price of any more that come up in the future, by at least a bit. Somehow I doubt the premium for these cards was just for their usage in the Classic OS environment.

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Jose 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 2:59:48
#9 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 934
From: Unknown

Is it really necessary to have a licence to produce these ? I mean, I thought the license was more about selling it as Amiga certified or something.

I'm not saying a new one should cost as much either, even an updated one.
I'd be interested because these cards presently are the only ones that run all classic/(A)OS4/MOS stuff. And linux too. Yes, I know it probably makes more sense to have a separate classic machine for games and demos, but for developers it's ideal. Besides to me an upgraded A4000 would be just cool, as stupid it might be theoretically...:)

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number6 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 3:09:04
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10837
From: In the village

@Jose

Resurrected yet again...in case you have not voted yet and wish to:

[Poll] If new PPC cards were available to buy, would you be interested?

#6

Last edited by number6 on 16-Jul-2008 at 03:09 AM.

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K-L 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 10:45:59
#11 ]
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Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1360
From: Oullins, France

@All

Ahd the funnier thing in this auction is that the "post & package" are not even offered

Anyway, prices will drop when AmigaOS 4.1 is out since noone knows if there will ever be an OS 4.1 Classic.

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Hypex 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 16:15:17
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9832
From: Greensborough, Australia

@logicalheart

Quote:
Amiga Inc. threatened legal action against many groups (websites, Amithlon, H&P and others.) I think Hyperion was the only one to actually stand up against them in court. I don't know much detail on the others though.


Well H&P have the updated AmigaOS sourcode so it's no wonder OS4 was delayed. I think it was in Amiga's right to go after them. But with Amithlon, AFAIK Bill was tring to contact the author, not to threaten him, but to arrange a deal. Remember, Bill Mc is a keen x86er. When we met 8 years he didn't understand the PPC thing at all. Nor why we had a thing for it. And this was eight years ago! More relevant then!

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Hypex 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 16:17:34
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9832
From: Greensborough, Australia

@number6

Quote:
Resurrected yet again...in case you have not voted yet and wish to:[Poll] If new PPC cards were available to buy, would you be interested?


Perhaps compainies like SAM ACube and Trokia should concentrate on making Classic accelerators instead of stand alone boards.

I mean, c'mon, even if a Sam440 could run OS4, the processor still makes the G3 800 I have now still look real good.

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Crumb 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 16:30:04
#14 ]
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Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@Jose

If a few people spent that money in paying a coder to integrate SheepShaver's PPC to x86 JIT with EUAE you could run OS4/MOS everywhere

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Snuffy 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 16:37:39
#15 ]
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Joined: 25-Oct-2005
Posts: 1121
From: Michigan, USA

@Jose

had seen crazy prices but it's becoming the norm

728 pounds is about what a A1-XE computer cost in 2002 from any dealer. That's too much to spend on an old Amiga classic. Did you know that A3000T's sold for $5000 in 1993! (saw it some AmigaWorld Mags).

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logicalheart 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 16-Jul-2008 19:42:09
#16 ]
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Joined: 2-Dec-2003
Posts: 693
From: Sandy, Utah. USA

@Hypex

Quote:
Well H&P have the updated AmigaOS sourcode so it's no wonder OS4 was delayed. I think it was in Amiga's right to go after them. But with Amithlon, AFAIK Bill was tring to contact the author, not to threaten him, but to arrange a deal.


I don't know of any action AmigaInc took to get OS 3.9 sources from H&P. I also don't know of any action they took to provide OS 3.1 sources for Hyperion.

I do know AmigaInc stopped the AmigaXL product, and they basically told Bernie (Amithlon) he was participating in illegal software distribution. AmigaInc said they had a different and legal Classic emulator that would be released. But that was just another lie of course.

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umisef 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 17-Jul-2008 1:05:38
#17 ]
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Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1673
From: Melbourne, Australia

@logicalheart

Quote:
AmigaInc said they had a different and legal Classic emulator that would be released. But that was just another lie of course.


I know it's all the rage to beat up on AI these days, but that one simply isn't true.

They said they had reached an agreement with me to provide me, personally, with a license to sell an Amithlon-related emulator, which would go on sale at a certain date. And they *did* sign a contract providing said license, at rather agreeable terms; The reason it ended up not going on sale had nothing to do with AI, and everything to do with threats and extortion by H&P (whom, granted, AI kept promising to sue to put them in their place, yet never, to the best of my knowledge, did).

And, of course, that was a completely different AI, anyway...

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Boot_WB 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 17-Jul-2008 1:37:00
#18 ]
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Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

Crazy prices indeed.
That was my auction and the starting price was £0.01 - I wasn't expecting it to go quite that high, but can't say I'm sorry that it did.

Just as crazy (if not more so) is that this person (whose auction started around 1 hour after mine ended) obviously took it as a benchmark price, and decided to rip a paragraph out of my description to boot. Don't know why he pulled the auction though.

On the face of it, it does almost seem worth paying the bounty for DCE to release the Cyberstorm and Blizzard schematics, however I strongly suspect that the visible tens of these which sell on Ebay each year aren't representative of a larger market which would make it financially viable. And that's neglecting the cost of the considerable redesign work which would probably be required to make a manufacturable product.

Last edited by Boot_WB on 17-Jul-2008 at 01:37 AM.
Last edited by Boot_WB on 17-Jul-2008 at 01:37 AM.

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logicalheart 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 17-Jul-2008 3:43:56
#19 ]
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Joined: 2-Dec-2003
Posts: 693
From: Sandy, Utah. USA

@umisef

Thank you. I've found a related announcement here:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/press/amithlon.html

I'm not trying to do something popular by criticising AmigaInc.
When they intentionally deceive, or make promises they don't even have the capability to fulfill, that is lying. Thus the case with Amithlon 2.

You had a working product, then AmigaInc 1) halted it. 2) Made impossible requirements of their own side of the agreement before the product could continue. 3) When they could not fulfill their part of the deal, they made no concession or alternative.

I don't know what went on between between H&P and AmigaInc. I don't know if AmigaInc was trying to take H&P's code work and license away completely, or if H&P was trying to illegitimately get something from AmigaInc. Do you know what the "threats and extortion" from H&P were about?

Now I've gone and taken this thread off topic. I'll shut up for now.

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umisef 
Re: This is getting a bit insane...
Posted on 17-Jul-2008 4:51:44
#20 ]
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Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1673
From: Melbourne, Australia

@logicalheart

Quote:
You had a working product, then AmigaInc 1) halted it. 2) Made impossible requirements of their own side of the agreement before the product could continue. 3) When they could not fulfill their part of the deal, they made no concession or alternative.


(1) and (2) are simply not true. As I said, I have a signed contract, which actually contains a number of terms which I put in merely as bargaining chips to be traded away for concessions, but which AI simply accepted. (3) is true only in the sense that they repeatedly promised to sue H&P, and didn't --- other than that, no action was required from AI (I *had* been dealing with them for a while at that point, so not needing active cooperation was high on my list of priorities :).

Quote:
I don't know what went on between between H&P and AmigaInc.


Neither do I. One day, I'd love to know all the true details, but I suspect I never will...

Quote:
Do you know what the "threats and extortion" from H&P were about?


Oh, those had nothing to do with AI. H&P was threatening to sue anyone who so much as licensed anything for use with Umilator, which made the P96 guys be very hesitant to provide a license (and without P96 license, no Umilator. H&P might ship stuff without licenses, *I* don't). They also threatened me, personally, with all sorts of nastiness if Umilator was released, while announcing that they planned to obtain expensive injunctions against its distribution (and thus cut off any income from it) --- all the while saying that if only I came back into the fold and worked with them again, all could be forgiven, and we could all be great friends again....

The only time I am aware of H&P blackmailing AI was in mid-2001, when AI was still selling the "A1, OS4 by November 01" line, whereas H&P knew damn well that (a) no A1 existed, and (b) OS4 had not been worked on in months, having been shelved in favour of "AmigaXL". At that point, H&P basically told AI "You cede Amithlon distribution to us, or we make a big noise announcing that we leave the Amiga market, and expose and blame all the lies". I should have listened to my gut, which was quite disgusted at that move.

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