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BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 24-Jun-2021 17:30:04
#1581 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5982
From: UK

@eliyahu

Quote:
Bingo. They've aggressively gone after other Amiga retailers in the past, not just the RetroPassion guys in the UK. Heaven help us if Enhancer is a Trojan horse for taking over AmigaOS by stealth. These types of business practices are simply inexcusable, especially in such a small community.


Nothing has helped the rise of other Amiga retailers than AmigaKit’s decision not to stock/Hyperion’s refusing to let them stock AmigaOS3.2! I’ve had trouble getting Reshoot-R and a CD32 cover from AmigaKit and have used AmigaStore.eu during lockdown and RetroPassion are great so they’re already on the slide before this. As already stated, I am waiting to hear about a CD32 compatible joystick/mouse switcher that they have the boards for but seemingly no time/parts to assemble and sell to me! If SolidCore ever comes back to the scene I’ll happily take one off his hands instead! It’s a sorry state of affairs but I hear AmigaKit have another member of staff now so maybe the delays will reduce and communication will improve? I just wasn’t thinking he’d be a part time lawyer as well as a computer assembler!

Last edited by BigD on 24-Jun-2021 at 05:46 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 24-Jun-2021 at 05:35 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 24-Jun-2021 at 05:32 PM.

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redfox 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 24-Jun-2021 19:13:39
#1582 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1883
From: Canada

@amigakit

AmigaKit vs Amiga Addict magazine



redfox

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pavlor 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 24-Jun-2021 19:25:32
#1583 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9255
From: Unknown

What a dirty game.

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amigang 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 24-Jun-2021 22:22:40
#1584 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1689
From: Cheshire, England

@BigD
On Amiga.org logo, I’m sure I remembered reading it somewhere that commodore actually approved the Amiga.org logo use, as it was set up in 1994,
http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/?m=201407

Which is why A-eon is able to sell / brand thing with it.

Last edited by amigang on 24-Jun-2021 at 10:23 PM.

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eliyahu 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 0:17:20
#1585 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1869
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@amigang

Quote:
On Amiga.org logo, I’m sure I remembered reading it somewhere that commodore actually approved the Amiga.org logo use, as it was set up in 1994,
http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/?m=201407

Which is why A-eon is able to sell / brand thing with it.

If I remember correctly the logo and the agreement with Commodore behind its use were the main asset A-EON wanted when it approached Wayne to purchase amiga.org. One of my prized desk tchotchkes is an amiga.org branded mug from Amiwest some years ago. I can't recall if the mug was technically from A-EON or AmigaKit, though.

-- eliyahu

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amigadave 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 1:50:48
#1586 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1724
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@eliyahu

Quote:

eliyahu wrote:
For better or worse, we live in a capitalist world, and that means (or should mean) open competition. If you can only compete by trying to squeeze out cash-poor competitors via legal trickery and such, find a new line of work.

-- eliyahu


The above makes me wonder what your definition of "capitalist world" is?

IMHO, the capitalist world (mostly big corporations) squeezes out cash-poor competitors via legal trickery and such every day, as their normal mode of operation.

I hate to say this, but this experiment in Capitalism isn't working out very well at this point in time, and hasn't significantly improved the lives of average people. The super rich 1% still own 95% of the worlds wealth and capital assets, while the mediocre rich 4% strive to emulate and become the "new super rich", and the rest of the worlds population (95%) are struggling just to get by, so they don't have to retire in complete poverty.

It is my hope that humanity will find a better way forward in the near-ish future, for the sake of my children and grandchildren. I don't know why the rich and super rich can't understand that sharing wealth more equitably would just make their lives and wealth more secure. When inequities become too large, people demand mroe drastic changes, and sometimes do desperate things. Everyone should be entitled to basic human needs of shelter, food, and medical care. If you want a shiny new car in your garage every few years, you had better work your ass off for it.

Sorry for the rant, I've been on this anti-coporate shtick for a while now. Greed and unfair competition really get under my skin.

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amigang 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 7:24:06
#1587 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1689
From: Cheshire, England

@amigadave

Quote:
I hate to say this, but this experiment in Capitalism isn't working out very well at this point in time, and hasn't significantly improved the lives of average people. The super rich 1% still own 95% of the worlds wealth and capital assets, while the mediocre rich 4% strive to emulate and become the "new super rich", and the rest of the worlds population (95%) are struggling just to get by, so they don't have to retire in complete poverty.


Bad Capitalism, like eliyahu points out needs addressing but this is worth a read
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/cityredi/capitalism-and-its-impact-on-global-living-standards/

Dont get me wrong it bad that the super rich are getting richer and this whole Pandemic has made things even worst, I mean largely here in the UK, the people with Rich, well paid jobs got 18month off paid to say at home at 80% of there wages, where as "key worker" often low paid working in Food, warehouse, delivery drivers etc had to work though out and had no money or support. (im one!)

But I do feel that Capitalism works when its not corrupted and not monopolized but unfortunately the US in particular has let too much corruption and monopolized markets to happen.

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Rose 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 7:56:34
#1588 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 937
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

If I remember correctly the logo and the agreement with Commodore behind its use were the main asset A-EON wanted when it approached Wayne to purchase amiga.org.
--


Partly right. Wayne was looooong gone when that happened. A-EON bought it from DiscreetFX.

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simplex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 8:51:08
#1589 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@amigadave

Quote:
this experiment in Capitalism isn't working out very well at this point in time, and hasn't significantly improved the lives of average people.

I suspect that if you put actual numbers to this, you'd find that most of the world's people are significantly better off in material terms than they were 20, 50, 100 years ago. Number of cell phones; percent of people in homes; percent of people with food security; percent of people with access to mass transportation; percent of people with access to good education and good health care; .... Capitalism has been the economic system in those places where this has increasing by far the most, and in places that have not increased much, or have regressed, the economic system has, as a rule, been a much-proclaimed alternative to capitalism.

Quote:
The super rich 1% still own 95% of the worlds wealth and capital assets, while the mediocre rich 4% strive to emulate and become the "new super rich", and the rest of the worlds population (95%) are struggling just to get by, so they don't have to retire in complete poverty.

Relative statistics of this sort are good for measuring the potential of envy, which is based on relative wealth, and really does need to be measured as a sign of societal discontent. But they're not at all good at measuring misery, which is based on absolute living conditions. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

For example, you reference the world's richest 1%. The average household income in the United States means that most people with a job in the United States (median individual income $43000/yr) are among the world's top 1% of earners ($34000/yr). I won't speak on your behalf, but I fall in that number, and most anyone who knows me would be surprised to hear that I'm a 1%er.

Some in the US have it better than others. For instance,most Californian households earn more ($75000) than my household earns (not telling -- not embarrassing, but not boast-worthy), and the average California household arguably has more assets and wealth, so from a relative point of view they're better off than I am.

I doubt they feel like it, though. In San Francisco the average apartment covers 739 sq ft and rents for roughly $2900 a month, four times the mortgage on my ~1700 sq ft house, which also has a yard where we raise a garden. And I'm not even in the boondocks, where property is really cheap; I live in the suburb of a city with museums and arts festivals, two very good hospitals (one of them in walking distance from my house), etc. If you want more, three major metropolitan areas lie within a two hour drive -- and I can drive, which almost no one 100 years ago could do. It looks as if the cost per square foot of a California home costs several times as much as my house. In some cases, 15 times as much. Are those houses 15 times better? Some of them, yes, but certainly not all of them.

Quote:
I don't know why the rich and super rich can't understand that sharing wealth more equitably would just make their lives and wealth more secure.

On the one hand, I agree that the rich should share. I don't feel rich, but I certainly try to share.

On the other hand, a lot of that wealth you cite consists of stocks, bonds, retirement accounts, and real estate; it's not cash, and a lot of the value is inflated and awaits a market correction. (A lot of Americans are millionaires only on account of their 401(k) accounts!) Even if it were cash, it would be losing value thanks to inflation. How do you share real estate in, say California, with a poor person in, say, New Mexico, or even in Africa? You can't move the real estate there. You can sell the land to someone else and give the money away, and people do that, and I respect people who do that! but now the person you sold it to owns the real estate, and that's what had the actual value. The people you've given the money now have to figure out a way to convert the money you gave them into more money, by, say, buying a bicycle that helps them find productive work. Unfortunately, 7 times out of 10 you give people a windfall and they squander it; 2 times out of ten they live under a corrupt government that makes it impossible for them to do better.

And what is "equitable", anyway? Is it inherently unfair that the average Californian earns more than twice as much as the average resident of my state? Should we redistribute that, or is it perhaps an artifice of higher cost of living and the particular industries in the respective states? If a decent minimum wage in California is $15/hr, should it be the same in a state whose cost of living is less than half that?

I'll close with this anecdote. Some years back, a friend mentioned to me that he'd read how America's 10 richest people together had roughly $1 trillion of wealth or thereabouts. "Imagine if we divided it among everyone in this country," he said. "We'd be rich!" It pained me to point out that it didn't even require a calculator to estimate the windfall: only about $3500 per person. Not rich at all! Unfortunately, that sort of innumeracy pervades social justice / "equity" rhetoric, and that's before you start to consider the actual complexities of economics and human behavior.

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geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 9:11:35
#1590 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@amigang

Every system will get hijacked by greed. It's often the managers in capatalism, the politicians in communism (everybody is equal. But the politicians in charge are more equal than others) and dictatorial regimes.

Same thing happens in micro communities like the amiga scene.

So it's not the systems that's the problem. It's human nature that's the problem. Everybody will turn into a greedy monster eventually when their position in the systems allows for it. Only the money threshold is different from person to person.

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BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 9:18:43
#1591 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5982
From: UK

@amigang

Quote:
But I do feel that Capitalism works when its not corrupted and not monopolized but unfortunately the US in particular has let too much corruption and monopolized markets to happen.


Capitalism is the best ‘system’ we have, but that’s the problem you can’t focus on the system, you focus on the people! If the system stops serving the people and instead is corrupt favouring the lazy, privileged or powerful then it needs to be tweaked or cleaned up IMHO.

Yes, there was unfairness during the pandemic but that was due to a wave of socialism and anti-market propping up of companies and workers because like the credit crunch before it we perceive these ‘systems’ as too important to fail, even if they are obsolete in the modern market. E.g. High Street Retail will never recover with current corporate lease rates etc but we carry on like it’s sustainable because the land owners demand their pound of flesh like always!

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LarsB 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 11:38:17
#1592 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 100
From: Unknown

@simplex I am not that euphoric about capitalism. Sure socialism had its try and it failed. But you refered to all the luxury we have. Its all a end in itself for capitalism. When we wouldnt buy all this rubhish, they wouldnt have money and so no power over us. And you pay it all with your working power and with your loyality. Loyality to the few that own the most of the world. Also it sedates us. Bending our minds.

We in western countries are a few lucky ones who dont live under straight oblitaration. Please look at FoxConn. The workers are building our 2300,- € iPhones under conditions which arent almost worth living anymore. And we driving along with our cruise ships, destroying the environment. Keeping our selves as slaves in mind and in the methaphysical senese who dont know the word freedom anymore. Building walls to keep the poor people out of our countries. Stuffing ourselves with all this useless nonsense the system is selling us.

And what happens when we are old? Too old to be useful in the machinery? The vast of the people here in germany for example dont have a bright futute. Ca. 50% of all seniors will get a pension lower than 800,-€. Some are collecting deposit bottles.

Thats the final result of capitalism. Much better than socialism? Hard to say for me.

Last edited by LarsB on 25-Jun-2021 at 11:46 AM.
Last edited by LarsB on 25-Jun-2021 at 11:45 AM.
Last edited by LarsB on 25-Jun-2021 at 11:43 AM.

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paolone 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 12:15:55
#1593 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1100
From: Unknown

@walkero

Quote:

@all
Guys, don't be naive. What AmigaKit is scared of, IMO, it is not the AA magazine. And this is clear by their move, is that behind AA is Simulant Systems Ltd (https://www.simulant.uk/shop/home). AmigaKit tries to prevent one more store to rise, because they assume that Amiga Addict trademark might be used to sell/promote hardware and software in the future. It is the same thing they did with Amiga/RetroPassion.

I might be wrong but that's how I see it.


This makes things even worse. So we're talking about a reseller trying to protect a name which includes an already protected commercial item they sell, and threatening a possible competitor doing the same odd thing?

Only Amiga makes it possible.

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Lou 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 12:49:13
#1594 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4121
From: Rhode Island

Capitalism works when a government does it's [one] job and protects the people's interests.

Capitalism fails when the government is lobbied by corporations and that eventually leads to government-supported monopolies...which is what's going on now in the USA...and probably a lot of other countries especially thanks to the #scamdemic policies implemented over the last 15+ months...

So what we have now is crony capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

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cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 13:30:22
#1595 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@eliyahu
Quote:

If I remember correctly the logo and the agreement with Commodore behind its use

Wayne Hunt got Commodore's permission to use the amiga.org domain in 1994. The logo that is currently in use was introduced much later: it features the BoingBall and the red diamond, elements introduced by ESCOM. A quick check using the Web Archive suggests the current logo design started showing up in 2001.

Quote:

were the main asset A-EON wanted

Obviously. They started using the amiga.org-Logo on completely unrelated commercial products like the Enhancer bundle pretty soon.

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eliyahu 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 14:08:40
#1596 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1869
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Wayne Hunt got Commodore's permission to use the amiga.org domain in 1994. The logo that is currently in use was introduced much later: it features the BoingBall and the red diamond, elements introduced by ESCOM. A quick check using the Web Archive suggests the current logo design started showing up in 2001.

Cool. I hadn't seen the earlier version.

-- eliyahu

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 14:10:14
#1597 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@cgutjahr

first mention of enhancer on AW
Released 2016

iirc, merch came first like:
Quote:
AMIGA.ORG ANNIVERSARY MUG ( 2014)

Merchandise link at: http://www.amigastore.com/

#6

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simplex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 18:02:51
#1598 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@LarsB

Quote:
I am not that euphoric about capitalism.

Whoah, whoah, whoah, I'm not either! I'm merely replying to very broad and specific claims that are demonstrably wrong.

The first problem with capitalism lies in the word's vague meaning. To some people it means one thing, to others another. Lou, makes a very good point.

My basic orientation is in favor of what I would called "unplanned economies"; that is, I'd like government and academic elites to be more humble about how much they don't know, and to market their proposed fixes to perceived problems with less pretense of certainty of the desired outcome and the lack of inadvertent outcomes. At a very minimum, they shouldn't snigger about how they lied to the people while being paid almost half a million dollars to help design a law that didn't even do what its advocates claimed.

I like the idea of free markets, but men aren't angels***, nor are they geniuses, so some government regulation is needed. When you point to Foxconn, I say yes, absolutely, why are we exporting our manufacturing capacity to a literal slave society run by devotees of central planning who control more aspects of their citizen's intimate lives more tyrannically than the Soviet Union ever dreamed? And why is it that pointing out these facts is often met by denunciations of "racism"?

Quote:
And what happens when we are old? Too old to be useful in the machinery? The vast of the people here in germany for example dont have a bright futute. Ca. 50% of all seniors will get a pension lower than 800,-€. Some are collecting deposit bottles.

I'm somewhat less sympathetic to this, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. I'll explain why and perhaps you can tell me how I misunderstand.

The US is much similar. Ever year I receive a mailing from the Social Security Administration that tells me I will receive roughly $1200/month. I think that's only a little more than the 800,-€ you mention.

Well, now I have the information. Unless I'm poor (and I'm not) I really have no excuse not to use the many years I have left to put aside my own money and save it for retirement. I have the opportunity to take responsibility for myself instead of making myself dependent on the State. In the US (don't know about Germany) we actually have a system set up to help people do exactly that sort of thing, but they choose not to.

Or, you know, I could do what most middle class people do these days: buy a new car sooner, buy a vacation home / time-share on the beach, buy an unlimited data plan for my much expensive cell phone that costs 10x as much as one that will do everything I need, hit the restaurants every week or even more often, buy the most expensive cable TV package, ... then complain that I'm worse off than my parents who had none of those things. So I'd actually be OK with forcing people to divert some of their income into special savings accounts that's beyond their reach until their retire, but instead people want to design a policy that makes everyone a ward of the state. No, thank you.

The situation in most Western countries is that we are increasingly extending what should be a safety net to subsidize the middle class. The result is that the middle class takes less and less responsibility for itself, when it really could take responsibility for itself, and the apparent need for a safety net grows.

So that's how I read your complaint, but I admit that I may be misreading it. In fact I'm pretty sure I am. How so? (Feel free to create a new thread so that we don't pollute this one further, unless you think it will be brief.)

***Women may be angels. The ones in my household are pretty close.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 20:30:40
#1599 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1177
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@simplex,

Nice explanation, not too complex.

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bison 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 20:42:38
#1600 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1923
From: N-Space

@geen_naam

Quote:
It's human nature that's the problem.

Yes, I think that's right. Human nature is like a coin, with greed on one side (heads) and envy on the other (tails).

@thread

I was going to chime in with my off-topic defense of capitalism, but @simplex and others have already made the case. Some of the disagreement comes from differing definitions of capitalism. @amigadave mentions big corporations, which I think are often an aberration due to monopoly power granted by governments. Small to medium size businesses form a more accurate picture of capitalism, I think. If the word "capitalism" bothers you, then substitute "free markets" in its place.

Last edited by bison on 25-Jun-2021 at 08:44 PM.

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