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tygre 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 20-Aug-2018 19:48:41
#241 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2011
Posts: 189
From: Montreal, QC, Canada

@NutsAboutAmiga

Another very intersting article regarding license compatibility: http://turingmachine.org/~dmg/papers/dmg2009_icse_licenses_preliminary.pdf

And, of course, the Java classpath exception: https://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/license.html

Happy reading!

Last edited by tygre on 20-Aug-2018 at 07:50 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 20-Aug-2018 19:58:06
#242 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8977
From: Unknown

@bobson

Welcome back!

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DC_Edge 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 20-Aug-2018 20:30:07
#243 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2003
Posts: 183
From: France

@michalsc

Absolutely wrong with you if then statement, or i misunderstood it?

I advise you to read the #LGPLv3ContributorVersion part of gpl v3.
You can use gpl library in a proprietary software.
The library stays under gpl, with all the respect it deserves, fe delivering the code , and the proprietary software remains what it is.

Best would be to have a look at mr Stallman speaks to understand better he explains this really well.

I met mr stalman in one of hes conf, and asked the same thing..he replied same way as i did now, and said 'but why would you want to write software undermankind hostile license?

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klx300r 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 20-Aug-2018 20:41:09
#244 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3458
From: Toronto, Canada

@bobson

Welcome back! LOTS has happened but same old popcorn with legal bs at least on this thread eh

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michalsc 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 20-Aug-2018 20:48:11
#245 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 257
From: Germany

@DC_Edge

Quote:
I advise you to read the #LGPLv3ContributorVersion part of gpl v3.


You are saying exactly what I said. Yes, you can use LGPL library in a proprietary software. Please, notice the letter "L" before you advice me to read it.

Quote:
You can use gpl library in a proprietary software.


No you cannot, unless you release your proprietary software under GPL licence too.
Yes, you can use lgpl (please note the letter "L") library in a proprietary software.

Have I said something else before? If yes, show it. please...


Quote:
The library stays under gpl, with all the respect it deserves, fe delivering the code , and the proprietary software remains what it is.


Your statement would be correct if only you write lgpl instead of gpl...

Last edited by michalsc on 20-Aug-2018 at 08:59 PM.

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billt 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 20-Aug-2018 20:49:58
#246 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3095
From: Maryland, USA

@Rose

Quote:
Due license you can legally have binary without being their customer.


As I understand things, one needs only to distribute sources to those people that vendor has distributed the binary to.

If Hyperion distributes binary to me, because I paid for it and whatever else, then they owe me sources to that GPL thing.

If I forward the binary to you, then Hyperion does not legally need to provide source to you, as they did not distribute it to you. I did.

Thus, whoever you get the binary from would be responsible to distribute also that same source code to you.

So yes, the GPL license requires that you are able to get the source code from whomever you got the binary from. But you don't have to be able to get sources form others, whom you did not get the binary from.

If I get it from Hyperion, I may be allowed to pass it on to you, but I am also allowed to choose not to. If no one else chooses to pass on to you, then you do not have a legal right to get it, just because it is GPL.

Tricky, and dubious morality in the spirit of open-source, but legal?

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billt 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 20-Aug-2018 20:51:38
#247 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3095
From: Maryland, USA

RE the libata GPL topic:

41:30-libsata 44:45-ide framework 45:10-gpl license permissions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4R4kD01ZtE


Also...
http://landley.net/kdocs/htmldocs/libata.html

Quote:
The contents of this file are subject to the Open Software License version 1.1 that can be found at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:OSL1.1 and is included herein by reference.

Alternatively, the contents of this file may be used under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2 (the "GPL") as distributed in the kernel source COPYING file, in which case the provisions of the GPL are applicable instead of the above. If you wish to allow the use of your version of this file only under the terms of the GPL and not to allow others to use your version of this file under the OSL, indicate your decision by deleting the provisions above and replace them with the notice and other provisions required by the GPL. If you do not delete the provisions above, a recipient may use your version of this file under either the OSL or the GPL.


So it is dual-licensed, or option from the two choices, OSL and/or GPL2, but OSL does look similar in reqiring derivatives to be open-source.

Last edited by billt on 20-Aug-2018 at 11:27 PM.
Last edited by billt on 20-Aug-2018 at 11:26 PM.

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hth313 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 0:16:38
#248 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 145
From: Delta, Canada

@billt

As far as I understand from the video he got permission from the author (copyright holder), so there is no problem.

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hth313 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 4:58:55
#249 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 145
From: Delta, Canada

@thread

To stay on topic, I assume what happens if Hyperion goes bust is that the source will just pass on to a new owner, provided that someone think it may be worth something. It has survived this long, I doubt it will go away.

Should it really not be passed on, then I assume there is no longer any owner of 4.x and since Amiga Inc owns 3.1 which it is based on, then 4.x dies.
Isn't this kind of what happened to 3.5 and 3.9? They cannot be worked on anymore as far as I understand.


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gregthecanuck 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 8:35:12
#250 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 843
From: Vancouver, Canada

The thing is, with all the thrashing on ownership, trademarks, copyrights, bouncing around the courts, legality and all the usual time-wasting forum debates one thing is consistently forgotten... the users.

There are OS4.x and OS3.x users waiting for updates. Patiently waiting. Incredibly patiently waiting. Beyond insanely patiently waiting. And in return... almost complete silence. Silence on OS 4.x. A small glimmer on 3.x.

All the OS4 developers that used to post have pretty much gone silent. I don't care why as that will probably spawn another 50 page thread. And now we hear of an OS3.x update coming at some point which is cool. But almost no information.

I understand software development is hard. And expensive. And with a small target user base very difficult to earn a profit/living. And this is Amiga which somehow makes everything controversial.

Which brings me to my suggestion that has been made many times before. Open-source it. Get it over with. Maybe start with the nicely cleaned up OS3.x code base as a test case. Charge for distribution on commercial systems (i.e. A-Eon hardware, Vampires, and whatever else comes along). Spend the time *facilitating* the OS3.x updates, i.e. an Amiga version of Linus Torvalds as the gatekeeper.

Managed correctly I suggest this would be a real boon to the ecosystem. Perhaps a lot of the nice work done on AROS could be consolidated. Who knows? If someone wants to port to a different piece of hardware they could pay Hyperion or have someone write it themselves.

Hyperion (or whoever owns the code) needs some way to pay bills and keep the ball rolling. The current model is clearly not working.

I don't mean this as a post to criticize anybody. The past is the past. But we need to look forward and work out how to remove the roadblocks/deadlocks that currently exist. Maybe nothing can happen until the current legal situation is resolved... sigh.







Last edited by gregthecanuck on 21-Aug-2018 at 08:45 AM.

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Yssing 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 9:03:11
#251 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 992
From: Unknown

@gregthecanuck

Well there is always aros, if your desires are opensource.

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amigakit 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 9:06:50
#252 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2315
From: www.amigakit.com

@gregthecanuck

Quote:
one thing is consistently forgotten... the users.

I understand what you are saying. This is the reason that the Enhancer Software is actively developed and distributed with X5000. We aim to fill in the software gaps that our customers demand in 2018.

Quote:
Charge for distribution on commercial systems (i.e. A-Eon hardware


Under the current system, this already happens - Hyperion charges for each licence sold with every X5000, X1000 and A1222 beta. This is not at the special discount price that Final Edition retails for.

Quote:
Open-source it.


This is difficult. There are many components in an OS4 distribution that are owned by third parties. For example A-EON owns Ringhio, RadeonHD Lite driver, MediaToolBox, SP Engine and ATIRadeon driver. It would need agreement from a few different parties.

AROS project has been open source from its inception. It is available right now for developers to improve. I think that is a good barometer of how an open source platform would develop on the Amiga.

Last edited by amigakit on 21-Aug-2018 at 09:20 AM.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 9:23:33
#253 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 843
From: Vancouver, Canada

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@gregthecanuck

Well there is always aros, if your desires are opensource.


The problem with AROS is the developer resources are split yet again. And AROS isn't exactly booming along either at the moment. There doesn't appear to be any clear leadership, no roadmap, etc...

I am trying to work towards the "best" way forward for the operating system, the developers and the end-users.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 9:32:00
#254 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 843
From: Vancouver, Canada

@amigakit

I think you are doing a great job in the face of the challenges. The enhancer software and the work on the Radeon drivers is amazing considering the small team. Please don't consider my thoughts as any sort of criticism.

I didn't suggest open-sourcing was going to be easy. That is why I suggested OS 3.x as a test case. Hopefully less issues with mixed ownership.

As I mentioned above I think AROS is adrift. No clear chain of command. No ownership. No roadmap.

My goal is to just toss the idea out there and let it percolate. Maybe something will come of it. This isn't a new idea... but maybe its time has come.

Cheers!



Last edited by gregthecanuck on 21-Aug-2018 at 09:33 AM.

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nikosidis 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 10:12:04
#255 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 841
From: Norway, Oslo

No matter how you see it the huge problem with AmigaOS NG or MorphOS is the CPU arcitecture.
Amiga 68k is mostly assembler and not very easy to work with and very little portable.
AROS on the other had is very portable and is made to run on all mothern CPUs.

Talking about porting software it is a big advantage with OS running arm or x86. Big and little endian issue.

Vampire is cool and I might buy the standalone version but the big problem is porting software and OS updates.

For anything next generation I see no alternative to AROS. Even multicore support are prooven to work.

Interest are for sure not going up in Amigaworld. Amiga NG users are left behind with no updates and no info. MorphOS from what I understood are mostly seeing updates where possible to run on more MAC PPC hardware. AROS is lacking developers but thinkfully there are people like Neil that still works on it.
If you like you can follow updates to AROS from here. http://www.aros.org/

There been commits to AROS yesterday and the day before.
I know Neil does many things and belive me his skills are unbelivable.

If you like to see AROS develop further it is always a good thing to support the main developers.
I support him every month.

https://graphtreon.com/creator/ncafferkey

There for sure been many visions and no clear direction of where AROS is going. Neil for sure listen to the users and see the importance of them. With no users the platform is dead. Easy as that.

I'm doing the AROS distribution www.aspireos.com
First of all I like to target speciffic hardware.
I tried so much hardware with AROS that I know what is working good and what is not.
The great thing is that we have some fully supported laptops that are easy and cheap to find.
For the future we like to support more mothern hardware and a dream of mine is maybe we could
make some dedicated hardware for AROS and most cool would be if AROS could even be the NG Amiga using the Amiga name.
All that said AROS also runs hosted or on a viritual-player. That makes a huge advantage for those that develop.

Last edited by nikosidis on 21-Aug-2018 at 10:37 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 21-Aug-2018 at 10:35 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 21-Aug-2018 at 10:34 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 21-Aug-2018 at 10:32 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 21-Aug-2018 at 10:19 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 21-Aug-2018 at 10:16 AM.

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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 10:53:10
#256 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 33
From: Unknown

@nikosidis I've been away for a long long time. How complete an implementation is Aros of OS 3.x?

Could Aros be used as a stepping stone / subsystem to an NG machine, a bit like how Apple went from OS 9 to OS X? (I remember when PPC was first discussed, Hyperion said they're going PPC because if they went X86 people would just install windows... I didn't understand that argument).

What are the chances of AROS properly running on a Raspberry Pi? Seems the world is crying out for an ARM based mobile OS alternative to iOs and Android... could even sandbox android apps?

Or, make an AmigaOS layer on top of Linux - like Amithlon, as proposed here: https://jonlennartaasenden.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/the-amiga-arm-project/

Polish the ui up a bit so it looks 20th century... I know I've been away, so my opinion is moot... I just got very jaded with the entire Amiga scene.

I think its the experience that makes something an Amiga.

@everyone - I've not read every post, just scanned the thread - but this GPL / Open source stuff... could the main parts of the OS be open sourced, while still allowing for companies to sell commercial software / modules etc? Ultimately, AmigaOS is going to need money to survive - but it also needs users...

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terminills 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 10:59:38
#257 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1341
From: Unknown

@amigakit

Quote:
AROS project has been open source from its inception. It is available right now for developers to improve. I think that is a good barometer of how an open source platform would develop on the Amiga.


Do you mean true 64bit with Multicore support? :P

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amigakit 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 11:06:13
#258 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2315
From: www.amigakit.com

@terminills

Yes of course. I was making a neutral point - it is the “blue print” since 1994 for open source in this community.

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terminills 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 11:42:04
#259 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1341
From: Unknown

@amigakit


Quote:


@terminills

Yes of course. I was making a neutral point - it is the “blue print” since 1994 for open source in this community.



The biggest benefit AROS has over AmigaOS is the lack of litigation TBH. But as far as popularity goes now that it's in a usable state I would say it's slowly but surely growing.

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amigakit 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 11:45:22
#260 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2315
From: www.amigakit.com

@terminills

This is the same thing that is being achieved with Enhancer Software: developers paid for their code, clean code base written from ground upwards, licences and IP purchased for a stable future.

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