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PosterThread
MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 12:03:51
#21 ]
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Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

Well on his Linked In profile, it says he is working for Trever, in the
ExecSG team.



I love when they call IT "TREVER".


Anyway,


ZORRAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 12:18:50
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@TRIPOS

Quote:
You realise that this isn’t going to be OS4 but a new OS (new code, new binaries, new features, new publisher, new name), right?


Well its what we call enhancer pack today, many of new binary’s version 54 we have already tried or tested.

Yes will be, and there is already a divide between Radeon HD & RX owners vs Radeon owners, this divide is caused by capability of drivers and hardware. you see even bigger divide when SMP is working. What you can do with the hardware will be even more visible.
Quote:
Now Aeonkit seems determined to do this a fourth time around with System 54, which will shrink the already tiny OS4 market even more.


Well not in the same sense as earlier, this now at least now there is a common foundation ExecSG and library model, this means the software on OS4Depot will continue to work on System 54, and you can continue to write programs that is backwards compatible.

Of cause, if AmigaOS4.1 update 2 becomes the optional package, not a required package, there will be some issues. We will just need to wait see What issues that will pop up due to that.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 12:29 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 12:23:40
#23 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

ExecSG team is a Trevor company / organization, and is operating separately from AEON Technologies and Amiga KIT, of course there is a tight cooperation between the different organizations.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 12:27 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 12:24 PM.

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 13:06:36
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6621
From: UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Trever has also prayed for lots of the drivers, for AmigaONE-X1000, AmigaONE-X50x0, and AmigaONE-A1222 hardware...


Oh, we've all been praying It's good Hans is still part of the community.

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Matt3k 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 13:54:01
#25 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 85
From: NY

@OlafS25

Great points Olaf. People do have tastes for different features.

There will never be a nirvana Amiga OS, but MorphOS (:)) is a real solid choice today for many reasons and if AOS4.1x is really at the end of the road then, voila here is an option that may run now on your hardware. :)

For me running windows/linux to get around limitations of the application divide defeats the purpose. WinUAE, rabbithole, etc, all rely on the underlying OS to fill the gaps. I never personally liked that approach and it never stayed with me. I commend the great efforts by Jadacaps to make a simply awesome email client (Iris) and browser (Wayfarer). I especially like Iris, as it is really that damn good. I use 4 different email services setup in it and it works flawless in modern uses. To some extent the apps drive the OS for me. The Amiga used to be about the hardware for me back in the day, now as I got older the applications is where it is at for me these days.


Last edited by Matt3k on 31-Jul-2022 at 02:48 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 31-Jul-2022 at 02:16 PM.

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 13:59:33
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6621
From: UK

@Thread

I have to mention despite being non-partisan that I'm not a fan of using the acronym MOS for MorphOS considering how important MOS/CSG was for C= and vertical integration. Avoid confusion and remember the fab that made it all possible.

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TRIPOS 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 15:47:59
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1195
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@TRIPOS

Where did the Friedens go? I know they bailed on updating Timberwolf but they left the whole platform?! Did they fall out with Ben perchance?


It seems I remembered wrong, I thought 4.1.3 was their last release but after a little googling it seems they left OS4/Hyperion sometime after the 4.1.2 release in 30 April 2010.

Of course they fell out with Ben. Like everybody else. Their disagreement upon payment became public through court documents in a lawsuit between another party and Hyperion.

Steven Solie took over as ”team lead” late 2010 and 4.1.3 was ”his” first release. The Friedens drifted around in the community for a while though, at least enough to conduct their “Timberwolf” moneygrab (partly AmiZilla bounty money that was supposed to go to a browser port for Amiga and AROS and MorphOS jointly) by releasing a useless OS4-only quickport of Mozilla Firefox, grab the money and then dumping the project in its useless state. They also made some promises of other software ports, which of course never happened. It seems they have made some contract work for Trevor after him buying their kernel. Probably they assisted ssolie &co as consultants to help him get going. Other than that I suppose they make som forum posts occasionally on OS4-holy sites I never visit, but I wouldn’t know…

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 16:04:09
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@TRIPOS

"Mozilla Firefox" is now using Rust, so updating make no sense, or even continue working on the code. if we want to have newest Firefox, we need to port Rust.

Open Office is another project that they worked on.

Let’s hope its not dead, port something is just first step, but keeping the source up to date, is much more complicated problem, that also means having to keep dependences up to date, and also the build system, unless you cross compile.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 04:04 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 16:44:19
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1195
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:
You realise that this isn’t going to be OS4 but a new OS (new code, new binaries, new features, new publisher, new name), right?


Well its what we call enhancer pack today, many of new binary’s version 54 we have already tried or tested.


I am in perfect understanding of what “System 54” is and what it isn’t, thank you very much!

It is NOT OS4, nor is it a continuation of OS4. It is yet a new reimplementation of an NG Amiga system. Even if it on a broad sense has OS4 as inspiration, Matt has (on this very site, read this post before going to post #16 in that thread) carefully explained that one of the goals of ”System 54” is to break free of any possible copyright infringements with OS4/Hyperion, so that there will be no chance of Hyperion accusing them of IP-theft in any way. Hence NO code from OS4, NO binaries from OS4 and NO developers having had ANY history in developing OS4 components. No NOTHING from OS4. It’s a new OS made by new people and published by a new company (or rather at least two different new companies). Period!


Quote:
Quote:
Now Aeonkit seems determined to do this a fourth time around with System 54, which will shrink the already tiny OS4 market even more.


Well not in the same sense as earlier, this now at least now there is a common foundation ExecSG and library model, this means the software on OS4Depot will continue to work on System 54, and you can continue to write programs that is backwards compatible.


Yet there are so MANY testimonies from OS4 users on this very site witnessing about annoyance with the updater tool that overwrites proper OS4 components working just fine with newly developed “Enhancer”/“System 54” components that functions differently, are incompatible or just generally defunct, making their system dysfunctional until they overwrite the enhancer components again manually with the proper OS4-components. So much for compatibility in practice.



“System 54” is no more a way forward for OS4 than MorphOS is. In fact, like the Original Poster said, MorphOS may be a much better option for most people. It has reached a great level of maturity (unmatched), it is very feature rich (unmatched), its Amiga compatibility is excellent (unmatched), the developers are active and very helpful and very quick to fix bugs that users reports (unmatched), and it’s the ONLY Amiga option that for real can be used for normal 2022 level Internet stuff (unmatched). “System 54” will be new, comparatively incomplete and immature. For a very long time. And since it will be the fourth attempt att a new NG OS this late in the game it will probably have the smallest user group of all NG options, including OS4. Which will affect new SW developments and SW ports.

But everyone is free to make their own choice of course!

Quote:
Of cause, if AmigaOS4.1 update 2 becomes the optional package, not a required package, there will be some issues. We will just need to wait see What issues that will pop up due to that.


OS 4.1 FE update 2 will (as it seems) be the last OS4 version. Anyone wanting OS4 will use this. There is no other option. Anyone wanting to use something else from the “NG” sphere can select between AROS, MorphOS and potentially at some point “System 54” (whatever its name will be). These are (will be) the four options.

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TRIPOS 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 16:58:58
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1195
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

ExecSG team is a Trevor company / organization, and is operating separately from AEON Technologies and Amiga KIT, of course there is a tight cooperation between the different organizations.


Hence “Aeonkit”, since they are the same people, working towards the same goals, but have divided things on different corporate entities simply for practical/legal reasons.

Anyway, they are obviously trying to stay clear of copyright infringements with OS4/Hyperion IP (read the link in post #29 above) so they put the purchased OS4-kernel, ssolie and the Friedens and anything OS4 related in a Trevor-company, and the rest of “Enhancer”/“System 54” in another. And then they hope not to get a lawsuit when they put everything together into one product. Seems like a fragile card house, if you ask me.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 17:32:11
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Yet there are so MANY testimonies from OS4 users on this very site witnessing about annoyance with the updater tool that overwrites proper OS4 components working just fine with newly developed “Enhancer”/“System 54” components that functions differently, are incompatible or just generally defunct, making their system dysfunctional until they overwrite the enhancer components again manually with the proper OS4-components. So much for compatibility in practice.


True.. I have report 2 x bugs, they fixed the bugs in just a few days, this tow issues where pretty critical issues, in copy and list command, as long as they are quick to respond and fix bugs. The transition will not be too painful.

Quote:
These are (will be) the four options.


Two things:

The legal issue is not yet, concluded.

Hyperion Entertainment are owners of Reaction; they have few parts can painful to not have.
if was possible to pay for individual parts. Let’s say Hyperion lose AmigaOS, they will the possibility to sell these individual parts, that considered addons, it won’t bring inn a lot of revenue, unless they keep things up to date, and improve. I’m sure alternatives will pop up if they don’t.

Or once legality is sorted out, they know better what can be sold or not.

Some of the stuff can end up being open sourced as well, who knows.
What that means for Classic AmigaOS3.3/3.4/3.6/3.7 etc.. we don’t know.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 05:42 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 05:37 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 05:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Jul-2022 at 05:33 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 18:10:36
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1195
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:

MOS inherited also most of the amiga shortcomings like 32bit, no memory protection making it unsecure and unstable in todays terms, limited drivers, no SMP, limited software base compared to mainstream platforms.


Another word for 32-bit (with 31-bit adressing), no memory protection, big endian, no SMP is: Amiga compatibility!

It’s not a bug, it’s a feature. Being able to run regular 68k Amiga programs in the same space alongside PPC ones was probably the most prominent design goal at the time!

Quote:
That all cannot be overcome easily.


Not at all actually, if you aren’t prepared to sacrifice the Amiga compatibility.

Quote:
AROS of course has currently similar problems despite supporting 64bit and SMP and running on both X86 and AMD64.


Not only is AROS not binary compatible in that configuration, it’s not source code compatible either. Sources needs to be altered and recompiled. Not a huge problem in an AROS context, since AROS has always had a different view and approach to Amiga compatibility than MorphOS and OS4 anyway.

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OlafS25 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 18:34:58
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

on API level compatibility is pretty good... you see that on Aros 68k when running 3.1 software, lots of stuff works

and of course I know where some of the shortcomings of MorphOS come from. But that might have been a logical decision many years ago, now it is a problem

but for me that is not really important. I have high hopes regarding the linux transition that would solve many problems... modern OS base, driver support, modern software, at the same time amiga desktop and other software making it possible to have the look and feel combined with modern software like uptodate browsers

Last edited by OlafS25 on 31-Jul-2022 at 06:38 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 31-Jul-2022 at 06:37 PM.

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Rob 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 31-Jul-2022 21:22:29
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6217
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

System54 as described by Matthew still requires the presence of OS4.1 in one way or another. Maybe eventually they'll replace OS4.1 in it's entirety but that isn't currently A-EON's stated goal.

I think when a lot of people heard the word standalone their eyes glazed over and they didn't hear the bit about it still needing OS4.1 if this method of installation was chosen. The other option is to install it on top of the current OS4.1 release which is the same as all version of Enhancer so far.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 1-Aug-2022 1:27:14
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

ExecSG team is a Trevor company / organization, and is operating separately from AEON Technologies and Amiga KIT, of course there is a tight cooperation between the different organizations.



Thanks, friend NutsAboutAmiga,

for answering a question I never asked,
or explaining a point I never argued.

READING: THIS LONG LOST ART OF OURS.




/mega!

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V8 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 1-Aug-2022 6:00:10
#36 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 56
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS
Quote:
You realise that this isn’t going to be OS4 but a new OS (new code, new binaries, new features, new publisher, new name), right?


Give them some slack. They are running a business that is partially built on OS4 and have unfortunately realized that the future of that part of their business depends on Hermans goodwill.

I do not think they do this "split" for nefratious reasons or because it is fun but because they think they need to do it to save their business and they think this will save os4. After all, they are not entirely wrong. As long as Hermans is in control of OS4 not much is gonna happen.


What would you do if one day you realized that your business and future depended on Ben Hermans?
Lol.

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OlafS25 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 1-Aug-2022 7:19:02
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6171
From: Unknown

@Rob

up to now system54 is a little like amikit using 3.5/3.9 files. It is a distribution of 4.X. From what you read and from a logical view it seems Aeon wants to get rid of Hyperion so they propably will replace more and more old binaries with their own and it will end in a new OS. But that is speculation at the moment and will need a lot of time and money.

And as NutsAboutAmiga wrote... important parts of the OS like Reaction are owned by Hyperion. They really have to reimplement everything without access to sources. Reimplementation of smalll shell commands are the easiest task.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 01-Aug-2022 at 07:23 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 01-Aug-2022 at 07:23 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 01-Aug-2022 at 07:22 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 01-Aug-2022 at 07:21 AM.

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Matt3k 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 1-Aug-2022 14:49:34
#38 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 85
From: NY

@V8


What would you do if one day you realized that your business and future depended on Ben Hermans?

Sign with MorphOS... ( I simply couldn't resist lol)

Last edited by Matt3k on 01-Aug-2022 at 02:52 PM.

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Bosanac 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 1-Aug-2022 16:00:11
#39 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 207
From: Unknown

@V8

Quote:
What would you do if one day you realized that your business and future depended on Ben Hermans?


I would licence MorphOS for each machine I sell and then skin it like this: https://library.morph.zone/How_to_Make_MorphOS_Look_Like_OS4

I’d probably sink some money into this to bring it up to date too:
http://amigazeux.net/os4emu/

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 1-Aug-2022 16:03:47
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6621
From: UK

@Matt3k

Perhaps it would be simpler to just wait for Ben's passing at this point (to clarify, I don't wish that upon him) but seriously wouldn't he be happier just settling out of court and being remembered for the good stuff and 'saving' AmigaOS from oblivion when Amiga Inc couldn't do the job themselves?

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