@qwertz

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That's not the issue here. What we're trying to tell you is that the idea of "withdrawing funds" is generally totally against the concept of bounties. Once you donate, you just can't withdraw funds because you feel like it. If everyone could just withdraw their donations, the whole bounty concept would be totally useless because bounty hunters could never be sure if they would really get the whole booty because funds could be withdrawn at any time. It's a ridiculous idea to be able to withdraw funds you have donated. Especially when it's $5k. I can also contribute $5k to Timberwolf and two weeks before the Frieden's are finished, I'm going to withdraw the funds because Timberwolf will appear anyway so they don't need my $5k. How would they like that I'm wondering? That's pretty much what happened here. The concept of withdrawal is just not part of the bounty game.

In this case though the bounty appeared it would never be fulfilled. And participants could not agree on how to modify the bounty where it would be agreeable to all parties. That was reason enough to end it (probably years go IMO). All this other junk being highlighted by the press release and original version of the update to the Amizilla page was hugely unnecessary.

As someone who has contributed to quite a few bounties myself I really don't want to hear about guys cutting support because some guy on the internet insults them on an unmoderated forum.

DiscreetFX took the time to point out I've been insulted there as well. Should I seek to withhold future funds from projects? No. Because the money goes to good people, not the people insulting me. There is zero connection between the two.

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@fairlanefastback

If you check with Troels, maintainer of the AmigaBounty.net site he will confirm for you that the Netscape Executive was already growing frustrated on October 1st, 2009. I sent him an e-mail about it on that date. AmiZilla was not ended over random unmoderated web forum postings that just happened in the past few days. It was ended because no one made any progress porting Mozilla after six years. Some did not like the fact that I transferred the complete Booty to him even though he was the main contributor. And he grew tired of long ongoing rumors that he would mismanage the funds or never let AmiZilla end. Several people know his identity on this very website. He also felt guilty that an endless AmiZilla would cause harm to the reputation of my company. The lesson here is bounties should not go on forever and should have clear guidelines and milestones that are reached on certain ballpark dates.

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@DiscreetFX

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And he grew tired of long ongoing rumors that he would mismanage the funds

Such rumors would not seem possible when folks thought you had the money, not him. This anonymous person was thought to be just a donor.

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Several people know his identity on this very website.

Whoever is held in confidence on such a matter doesn't really have a bearing on some of the reactions you got. His identity and him being the holder of funds rather than you were not common knowledge. Hence the surprise that generated.

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AmiZilla was not ended over random unmoderated web forum postings that just happened in the past few days.

In which case you did yourself a disfavor with the reference to Moo Bunny in regard to this at all then (the lizard killed by a moo and a bunny bit).

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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@All

Bill P. send my money back and I invested it into the AROS OWB bounty.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@fairlanefastback
Maybe this anonymous Netscape exec was intending (or wants) to no-longer be anonymous (*), and somehow felt that the Moo rumours about how the money were handled would be bad?

(* = for example, maybe he purchased Amiga.org? Pure speculation on my part, but seems possible given his apparent interest in "good" & "bad" Amiga news sites.)

Last edited by ChrisH on 22-Nov-2009 at 09:53 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 22-Nov-2009 at 09:53 AM.

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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@fairlanefastback Quote:

Do people really need to hear about whether or not you will punish the entire community over upset from bad apples?

Sadly DiscreteFX is not unique in this respect: Rogue said they HAD been considering releasing all the source code to TImberwolf (rather than just what the license required), but after all the accusations & bad words they decided against it. (BTW, I think that was seriously over-reacting too, but what can one do?)

Worse, the people who cause some to over-react will unlikely learn their lesson, and do it all over again given the chance.

Last edited by ChrisH on 22-Nov-2009 at 10:01 AM.

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Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

This seems like the way to go. Nothing ever happened which was sad, but now that we soon will have TimberWolf, there is practically no reason for this to continue.

I would opt for my money to be transferred to the TimberWolf bounty, but I never did donate so...

In a way I'm glad this dream comes to an end though, even if it wasn't the one we hoped for.

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- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

Quote:

If you check with Troels, maintainer of the AmigaBounty.net site he will confirm for you that the Netscape Executive was already growing frustrated on October 1st, 2009.

Now, that's what I call a surprising coincidence! Could it be that he was "growing frustrated" on October 1st because on September 29th the Frieden's announced Timberwolf. I mean, suddenly losing $7k to some German programmer team is enough reason for frustration in these hard times, right?

From my point of view, it's really common sense that AmiZilla would have never been cancelled hadn't there been the Timberwolf announcement. Really, that's as easy as 1,2,3,4. The Frieden's said that a first beta of Timberwolf can be expected by Christmas so now it was really high time to cancel this thing before someone could start making claims on it. And yeah, the Frieden's said they wouldn't publish the sources but as many persons here have described, this was NOT a definite decision. All options were still reserved.

As a sign of good intentions, BillP should at least donate his $2k now to Timberwolf. But I'm afraid that will never happen. He probably won't even stuff one fourth of it ($500) to Timberwolf. Very credible. So from my opinion the only inference can be that the $2k were as virtual as the $5k. If not, DiscreetFX should give some evidence. Maybe confidentially show the bank statement of the CD to fairlanefastback. Unless that happens, this whole thing is just not believable.

@Arko
Just in interest: how you spend money to AROS OWb, if that bounty already closed times ago ? (i am in interest to spend some dollars to AROS-OWB too).

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@ qwertz :
Quote:

Now, that's what I call a surprising coincidence! Could it be that he was "growing frustrated" on October 1st because on September 29th the Frieden's announced Timberwolf. I mean, suddenly losing $7k to some German programmer team is enough reason for frustration in these hard times, right?

What does a closed source port has to do AT ALL with Amizilla?

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As a sign of good intentions, BillP should at least donate his $2k now to Timberwolf. But I'm afraid that will never happen. He probably won't even stuff one fourth of it ($500) to Timberwolf. Very credible. So from my opinion the only inference can be that the $2k were as virtual as the $5k. If not, DiscreetFX should give some evidence. Maybe confidentially show the bank statement of the CD to fairlanefastback. Unless that happens, this whole thing is just not believable.

As a sign of good intentions the Frieden brothers might as well release all their code... This will not happen still you expect that someone who clearly stated which their goals were to change when the Friedens didn't abide to those?

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@ ChrisH :
Quote:

Sadly DiscreteFX is not unique in this respect: Rogue said they HAD been considering releasing all the source code to TImberwolf (rather than just what the license required), but after all the accusations & bad words they decided against it. (BTW, I think that was seriously over-reacting too, but what can one do?)

Talk is cheap, if he really was into the spirit of releasing it he wouldn't be itched by what others would say since it wouldn't mean a thing. He wont release since it was never their intention, after all if your intention is to release source why would you start by spreading it to be closed?

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Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@DiscreetFX

Come on, no one asked you to keep the bounty running forever (it should have been closed years ago IMHO).

I asked you to get Mr. Secretanonymousex.Netscape guy contacting me in regards to getting Timberwolf opensourced and available for all platforms but he never bothered to write an email and now it's never likely to happen. Sad for AROS and MOS and pretty much shows what kind of guy he really is.

My main concerns are:
- You started the bounty but never told us when you were no longer in charge.
- The guy in control of the bounty is more or less anonymous.
- The guy in control is 100% impossible to get in touch with.
- The guy in control closes the bounty just when it MIGHT be completed.
- Giving the netscape guy all control of the bounty because he's the main donor (as you told me was the reason), seems weird to me.
- The guy is bothered by a few people on boomunny, tbh thats pathetic.

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I asked you to get Mr. Secretanonymousex.Netscape guy contacting me in regards to getting Timberwolf opensourced and available for all platforms but he never bothered to write an email and now it's never likely to happen. Sad for AROS and MOS and pretty much shows what kind of guy he really is.

That's quite sad indeed. :(

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

Quote:

Maybe this anonymous Netscape exec was intending (or wants) to no-longer be anonymous (*), and somehow felt that the Moo rumours about how the money were handled would be bad?

Lets explore that. The anonymous Netscape exec was known only as a donor. There was no thought of impropriety on his part that I have ever seen. He was seen as just a generous soul who was able (and willing god bless) to put the most of anyone in the pot. If anything, to anyone believing money mis-use rumors, he would just seem like the most harmed victim, as only DiscreetFX was known as the caretaker of the bounty. Lets remember that in previous public conversations on this subject DFX always portrayed things as Ants runs the effort to get this bounty done, DFX holds the money and hosts the bounty page.

Quote:

(* = for example, maybe he purchased Amiga.org? Pure speculation on my part, but seems possible given his apparent interest in "good" & "bad" Amiga news sites.)

Had the bounty been just cleanly ended, where afterwards he revealed himself at an announcement of buying Amiga.org he would be simply seen as a good guy who not only previously put a lot of money into a bounty that just did not work out, but also as a savior to Amiga.org, securing its continued existence IMO.

Instead we have a statement from him in this press release, speaking of monies withheld for previously perceived slights that never existed because no one ever blamed him for anything. We have a proclamation from him about talking less and doing more, when his talk on this subject of being the money holder never existed before (since DFX was believed to be the holders of the cash) and therefore he actually was never accused of anything previously.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 22-Nov-2009 at 03:03 PM.

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Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Pixie
Yes it's a bit sad.
I'm not saying that the source would be released but we could at least have had a discussion about the possibilities with the Friedens if the anonymous netscape guy had bothered to get in touch.

Saying there's no progress at all in the Amizilla project is partly true but the Friedens could change their mind and the AmigaOS4 part of the amizilla project be almost complete from one day to another. Just thinking the timing for closing the Amizilla bounty is all wrong until we know for sure the Friedens won't release the source

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@pixie Quote:

He wont release since it was never their intention, after all if your intention is to release source why would you start by spreading it to be closed?

Sigh, another person stating opinion as fact on this thread. One wonders that there aren't a lot of Abuse Reports flying around yet

BTW, Rogue said they had been CONSIDERING it. I am going to take him at his word, since there doesn't seem any reason to accuse him of lying.

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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

I can only repeat myself here: You can be sure that the Frieden's would have open sourced Timberwolf for $12k. However, the problem is that BillP & his alter ego formulated the bounty rules so cleverly to make sure they will never have to pay for this bounty. And they did that because they never had the $7k, at least that's what I think. Here is the key bounty rule formulated by BillP on AmiZilla website that was from my point of view installed to make sure that the bounty will never be completed. It's rule nr. 3:

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If a person or team successfully ports Firefox to one of the target operating systems then they will get 25% of the booty.

What BillP is saying here, is that the first porter will only get a laughable 25%. Well, guys, this is a joke! It's the one who does the first port who is doing all the work. Once Firefox is on OS4, compiling it for OS3, MorphOS, AROS is child's play. Really. The initial porter should AT LEAST have gotten 80% of the bounty because it's the initial porter who does all the work. Once the OS4 port is done, everybody who knows how to use a compiler can create versions for the other platforms.

So bounty rule no. 3 is totally hilarious. And from my point of view, bounty rule no. 3 was installed so that the bounty would never be reaped because no coder who does the initial port would ever be satisfied with getting only a laughable 25% of the bounty for the huge work he has done.

I hope everybody recognizes now that AmiZilla was never meant to be completed right from the very start because the rules were laid out so cleverly that BillP & Mr Secret Guy could be absolutely sure that no coder would ever claim this bounty because he would only get 25%. No coder would be so stupid to be satisfied with 25% and the rest goes to people who simply recompile all the work he has done.

Last edited by qwertz on 22-Nov-2009 at 03:46 PM.

@ ChrisH :
Quote:

Sigh, another person stating opinion as fact on this thread. One wonders that there aren't a lot of Abuse Reports flying around yet

What lead you into thinking that I state a fact instead of an opinion? Have I somehow mislead you into thinking it was anything an opinion, and subjective one as such? Mind you, what Rogue stated was also an opinion, the fact that he consider to release it open source is nothing more then opinion, it would only be fact had they release it in the open, fact is that is closed source, more so I say it's their loss, it's your loss. And no it ain't no fact, it's obviously my opinion.

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

Quote:

I can only repeat myself here: You can be sure that the Frieden's would have open sourced Timberwolf for $12k.

Cool, but considering that Amizilla bounty isn't even 12k what would be the relevance of it?

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What BillP is saying here, is that the first porter will only get a laughable 25%. Well, guys, this is a joke! It's the one who does the first port who is doing all the work. Once Firefox is on OS4, compiling it for OS3, MorphOS, AROS is child's play. Really. The initial porter should AT LEAST have gotten 80% of the bounty because it's the initial porter who does all the work. Once the OS4 port is done, everybody who knows how to use a compiler can create versions for the other platforms.

If the initial porter does all the work it might as well do all the ports otherwise it would be just dumbness not to take advantage of having all the work done and see others getting their money without actual do any work. Every dumb person can use a compiler and create versions for the other platforms so why not those bright guys who do the grunt work? What you say has no logic at all, something is missing in your plot.

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

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What you say has no logic at all, something is missing in your plot.

Would you ever expect the Frieden's compiling AmiZilla for Morphos? There you go.