yea like i said roughly half the price give or take..

anyway, the advantage of hyperion could be the advantage of others too.
like win win situations.
hyperion-aeon want betatesters, but cannot afford to distribute 100 free boards.
so they make an offer. if you like it take it.. if not then pass ..
i mean for those interested it's an opportunity too.
they'll get boards earlier and cheaper.

considering, the hardware probably won't change at this point, what's left is about software (imo) ..
so you do get a final product hardware-wise. the software will come along gradually.
it seems a reasonable deal to me.
i don't search further.

and it's a limited (100) offer. what i would consider unacceptable would be for example:
- full price even for betatester (so they would just have the board before everyone else but beside that no advantage)
- or the same offer, but without mentionning "beta" and without limitation in number. (sell a beta product as a normal one)

now that kind of things would be unnacptable.. but that's not the case here..
it seems it's a fair deal to me.. considering the amiga market or not ..

Quote:

hyperion-aeon want betatesters, but cannot afford to distribute 100 free boards.

Hey, that was my initial observation exactly: They're using a beta test program to finance a production run. Most companies don't sell beta* products at all.

* "Beta" is entirely arbitrary. Ones hopes it means there are no design-breaking defects, but you never know. Some companies, like Google, use the term in place of "release" or "revision."

_________________
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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
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@umisef

Good points and please don't be put off commenting on this debacle. The board needs someone who is prepared to calmly and mercilessly apply logic to the utterings of the increasingly shrill and bombastic over the coming months.

@Trev

Almost. You need to think quite carefully about what this really says about the state of the X1000 and MAP delivery. It would explain every utterly irrational reply on this thread by hyperionmp and the self propelled pitchfork wielding vicious-o-matic pawns here and on amigans.net. There are plenty of clues in what hyperionmp has replied so far.

Whatever happens you won't have had to wait until summer, right?

Over and out.

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Quote:

hyperion showed few times now that they deliver the goods. and their word can be trusted. maybe not 100% of the things they said came to be, but for the most part they proved they can be trusted.

You could replace "Hyperion" with "Phase5" in that sentence, and you'd be right back in 1998.

Quote:

but don't compare hyperion to ainc or some other companies that promised new boards but couldn't even deliver a picture.

Well, I don't see that comparison being made, anyway. In fact, neither AInc, nor ACK, nor Troika asked for a down-payment on to-be-released-at-some-future-time hardware.

Phase5, however, did. Which, for them, was a departure from their usual behaviour of creating things, then selling them; But given their track record of delivering the goods, and of community involvement (and given the promise that the money would be held in escrow, and would only be available to Phase5 upon actually delivering product), people were willing to prepay. The rest, as they say, is history.

Now, I am not saying that the same is going to happen to Hyperion[1]. Just because two situations are comparable does not mean the outcome is necessarily going to be comparable. Past performance is no indication of future performance, as they say (doubly applicable here :).


However, the question has to be asked --- what is the purpose of the Euro 750 deposit?

If we accept the money is, indeed, refundable at any time, without problem, hassles or discussion, then (a) putting it up does not show a great deal of commitment (whether you have E750 in your savings account or in A-Eon's beta program, no difference, both are accessible in the short term), and (b) it is of no use to A-Eon's operations, because they must at all times have it available as cash-equivalent for refunds.

So why the Euro 750? And more importantly, why Euro 750 not in some third party escrow account, but somewhere where they are under the direct control of A-Eon (or Hyperion, it seems, for whatever reason)?


I suspect that the purpose is rather one of "insurance" or collateral --- i.e. A-Eon provides beta testers with what it considers valuable information under an NDA, yet as a Belgian company really has extremely little hope of recovering any damages caused by a breach of the NDA by someone in, say, the US, Singapore or Poland; The cost of the litigation would be disproportionate to the amount they could claim in damages. Thus, there is little (other than an honour code, which not everyone believes in) that compels beta testers to stick to the terms of the agreement.
However, if A-Eon are already holding 750 Euro from that beta tester, the tables are turned. A-Eon can then retain those 750 Euro as partial compensation for the damages caused to them by any beta tester who breached the agreement, and while that still only gives them a fraction of the actual damages suffered, it *does* provide quite some motivation to the beta testers to stick to their end of the bargain.

Which is all fair enough; However, it should be noted that in that scenario, A-Eon (or Hyperion, who runs the beta test for them) is judge, jury and executioner. If they decide that some beta tester has breached the agreement, and that consequently their Euro 750 are no longer a deposit for a motherboard, but are rather partial restitution for damages caused --- then the beta tester in question has no remedy; If they consider the action unjustified, the only way they could recover their money would be by suing A-Eon (or Hyperion?), in Belgium, because (a) as a first approximation, suing is always done where the defendant is located, (b) the beta tester contract almost certainly will stipulate Belgian jurisdiction, and (c) courts outside Belgium have no way of enforcing any decision against a Belgian company, anyway.

A fair scheme, IMHO, would involve lodging Euro 750 with an independent third party escrow service, to be released only on matching instructions from both parties. And it would involve a matching Euro 750 deposit under the same terms by A-Eon (or Hyperion), so that *should* a dispute arise, both sides have equal motivation to resolve it and to thus enable the release of the escrowed amounts.
In the case of the beta tester choosing to withdraw prior to taking delivery of their hardware, both parties would instruct the escrow service to release E750 to the (ex) beta tester, and E750 to A-Eon. Or once the hardware becomes available and the beta tester chooses to actually purchase it, both parties instruct the escrow service to release E1500 to A-Eon. No risk, no fuss, lots of reasons to trust....




[1]: I *am* however saying that the hardware which people are asked to put a deposit on comes from from A-Eon, and thus Hyperion's track record seems hardly relevant, anyway. Yes, Hyperion have partnered with A-Eon. They also partnered with A-Inc in the past, and we all know how well *they* behaved when the time came to deliver on the coupons, right?

Last edited by umisef on 02-Jun-2010 at 01:25 AM.

@umisef and all
i don't know.. i think you all search too much.. trying to find evil schemes in this.
evil schemes or "what ifs" ..
if you don't trust them then just don't apply..

in my opinion, you give 750euro, you get a board, and everyone is happy.
if the board doesn't get delivered, then you're in your right to sue them.

end of story no ?

@freeaks

Quote:

was it said that additional fee would have to be paid ? the way i understood it was that 750$ was needed. i assumed this price was all.

Usually the usage of the word "deposit" means its an amount of money towards the full purchase price. i.e. a percentage of the full price.

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@DaveP

Quote:

It would explain every utterly irrational reply on this thread by hyperionmp and the self propelled pitchfork wielding vicious-o-matic pawns here and on amigans.net.

If you think someone is being vicious, please hit the report button on the offending post(s). Throwing out "pawns" I think is only going to agitate others.

Quote:

Whatever happens you won't have had to wait until summer, right?

Cheap shot IMHO.

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Quote:

if the board doesn't get delivered, then you're in your right to sue them.

And how well did that work in 1999, when Phase5 did not deliver?


I don't think it's an "evil scheme". I suspect it is very sound business by A-Eon, shifting a very large amount of risk from themselves to the "beta testers".

Which is fair enough, until they (or whoever "HyperionMP" is and/or speaks for) starts denying that such a shift has occurred. A significant percentage of startups fail within the first year (the stage A-Eon is at), and recovering the "deposit" would be all but impossible should that happen to A-Eon. Also, assurances that the deposit is fully refundable at all times are yet to be tested --- there is a hard-to-quantify but real risk that any refund request will encounter obstacles, obstruction and delays[1]. And even if one were to accept Hyperion's track record as relevant --- Hyperion does not have any track record of smooth refunds, either.


[1]: From personal experience, it has just taken me 4 months, and various threats of legal ramifications, to officially offer for sale a bunch of shares in my former employer, a process that should have taken 4 days at most. And that's with a comprehensive, if utterly misdrafted, 100+ page agreement in place detailing all the rules and procedures. At the end of the day, if you need someone else to do something, and your only way to compel them to do it is by going to the courts, you are very vulnerable.

Quote:

@DaveP Quote: It would explain every utterly irrational reply on this thread by hyperionmp and the self propelled pitchfork wielding vicious-o-matic pawns here and on amigans.net. If you think someone is being vicious, please hit the report button on the offending post(s). Throwing out "pawns" I think is only going to agitate others.

Good god man, why should I want them moderated? I'd prefer they stand for the world to see and question why! It is quite obvious whom I think is being vicious, and as yet you are not a moderator on amigans.net, heaven forfend.

Quote:

Quote: Whatever happens you won't have had to wait until summer, right? Cheap shot IMHO.

Would be good if what you claim is a cheap shot is not replied to with a cheap shot of your own. Perhaps letting a freshly held personal grudge override your judgment here?

However, it certainly is not a cheap shot. Anyone with a certain level of mental tenacity can see it for what it is and start thinking along the right path.

Edited to add: and history and experience and half an hour to spare to look at what went on in 2003 and 2004. Whether you feel that falls into your interest to go and unpick (it isn't hard) is entirely your personal choice.

Last edited by DaveP on 02-Jun-2010 at 02:25 AM.

_________________
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Quote:

Almost. You need to think quite carefully about what this really says about the state of the X1000 and MAP delivery. It would explain every utterly irrational reply on this thread by hyperionmp and the self propelled pitchfork wielding vicious-o-matic pawns here and on amigans.net. There are plenty of clues in what hyperionmp has replied so far.

It implies 1) A-eon has a design they are comfortable selling, and 2) they can't afford to supply boards to testers. I don't think it's any more complicated than that; however, throwing an NDA in the mix implies A-eon and Hyperion have something to hide. There are no competitors in the Amiga space (really, MorphOS and AROS are doing their own thing), so what is there to hide? I suppose they could be on their way to domination of the mobile, er no, that's Apple, the set-top, er no, everyone rolls their own Linux, the what now? (EDIT: Honestly, I think the NDA just makes the testers feel special. They get to be in on the secret, one of the Scoobies.)

The "MAP" is a community construct, something Hyperion has allowed to spin out of control. For all we know, Hyperion's "most ambitious project" has been remodeling the office bathroom. It's nice to believe--even for me--that Hyperion is bringing AmigaOS into the 21st century. Only time--and good dog, Hyperion is good at taking it--will tell.

I would love--in the fanboy sense--for AmigaOS to be special again. Unless we let go of Exec and all its 80's baggage, however, that's not going to happen. Fundamentally, AmigaOS is the same operating system it was 25 years ago. (EDIT: I'm not a computer scientist, but I'm also not blind. The nice thing about AmigaOS, though, even now, is that you can replace and customize just about whatever you want. Maybe someone outside Hyperion will start experimenting.)

Last edited by Trev on 02-Jun-2010 at 02:46 AM.
Last edited by Trev on 02-Jun-2010 at 02:43 AM.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
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more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@Trev

You have mail. I'm done with this hobby, apart from popping back to add an advert for my Sam when I have a chance to box it and price it.

_________________
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Quote:

Good god man, why should I want them moderated? I'd prefer they stand for the world to see and question why! It is quite obvious whom I think is being vicious

Whatever floats your boat I suppose. Though I would hope you'd see the value in a hobby community site open to all ages not having "vicious" posts where avoidable.

Quote:

Would be good if what you claim is a cheap shot is not replied to with a cheap shot of your own

Nope. just my opinion, which I hoped would be clear with the "IMHO".

Quote:

Anyone with a certain level of mental tenacity can see it for what it is and start thinking along the right path.

Several times in this thread you have said you have been misinterpreted (by several different people) I believe. That might be worth pondering, maybe not. Thats your choice.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Jun-2010 at 05:22 AM.

_________________
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@DaveP

Dude. It's just a computer.

_________________
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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@Trev
>2) they can't afford to supply boards to testers.

Which is of 0 relevance here, as it has allready been stated that the boards will have to be paid IN FULL before actual delivery. Unless you meant "they can't afford to produce the boards upfront".

Last edited by Kronos on 02-Jun-2010 at 06:21 AM.

_________________
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Quote:

In fact, neither AInc, nor ACK, nor Troika asked for a down-payment on to-be-released-at-some-future-time hardware.

Totally wrong. Amiga Inc *did* ask for a downpayment of $50 and all you got for it was a bloody T shirt.

At least Hyperion deliver the goods, and the same goods that you order not a substitution that you do not even want.

@Trev Quote:

And I'd like to reiterate my recommendation

Getting desperate that you're not putting people off the X1000?

Quote:

This isn't FUD

Really? Can we be so sure, when you write stuff like this:

Quote:

Hyperion delivered OS4 years later than promised

It is true, but also entirely out of context of the unexpected problems Hyperion faced (for which Amiga Inc + H&P hold a lot of blame). Thus that statement is misleading, and basically FUD.

Quote:

They're using a beta test program to finance a production run.

What proof do you have of this? More speculation/FUD it seems.

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@umisef Quote:

If we accept the money is, indeed, refundable at any time, without problem, hassles or discussion, then (a) putting it up does not show a great deal of commitment (whether you have E750 in your savings account or in A-Eon's beta program, no difference, both are accessible in the short term), and (b) it is of no use to A-Eon's operations, because they must at all times have it available as cash-equivalent for refunds. (snip)

A *far* simpler explanation than your paranoid proposal is to simply take A-Eon's word for the purpose of the deposit: Which is that this is basically a way for potential beta-testers to show that they are serious about buying a (Beta) X1000, which is after-all a big purchase even with a discount. Even if it can be refunded at any time, immediately parting with 750 Euros is still a big mental commitment (even if it wouldn't be to you, due to your very-high-paying job). It also helps prove they have the finances to pay for it, during a major recession.

It may seem a slightly unusual way to go about things, but it does have some merit. A-Eon aren't going to want to get a bank loan to pay for the manfacture of 100 boards, only to find that half the "Beta testers" pull-out before the thing is shipped, leaving them severly out of pocket (at least temporarily, which may be enough to exceed what period the loan is for, meaning massive penalties).

Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jun-2010 at 10:35 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jun-2010 at 10:33 AM.

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Quote:

A-Eon aren't going to want to get a bank loan to pay for the manfacture of 100 boards

This seems to me like shifting risk of running business from company to customers. But it's other people cash and time. I hope they will have fun working as betatesters.

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@ChrisH

>It is true, but also entirely out of context of the unexpected problems Hyperion
>faced (for which Amiga Inc + H&P hold a lot of blame). Thus that statement is
>misleading, and basically FUD.

Problems that would have been dead-obvious if Hyperion had bothered to check up some facts beforehand. But even if that wasn't the case, it still boils down to:

S##t happens, and s##t will happen again .....

>>They're using a beta test program to finance a production run.

>What proof do you have of this? More speculation/FUD it seems.

The proof is in the pudding
They are taking pre-payments, and not some measly symbolic sum but an amount that represents somewhere between 50 and 100% of the full price (depending on what the bare board will cost in the end). Instead of making sure the money goes in some safe (indipentend) account they (well "he" to be correct) react with knee-jerk insults to everyone pointing out the obvious (that previous pre-pays by "trusted" Amiga-companies went south the hard way).

So yes, "useing the money for the production run" is the only explanation sofar that makes any sense, and the fact that haven't denied it (while actually making comments on other aspects) adds further weight to that "speculation".

It is FUD ? (hoho some people should really learn to use that acronym in its right meaning)

Fear:
There is sofar no guarantee that the money will be kept safe at all circumstances, so fear is justified.

Uncertainty:
Noone independent has sofar seen the product, it's unclear why they asking so much money in advance, yep uncertainty at it's best.

Doubt:
One company with rather tainted record of delievering both on spec and within time seems to take prepayments for an unfinished/yet to be produced product by another company with absolut no track record at all. If that doesn't raise doubt.....

So yes, there is FUD, but it's created by companies involved, not us evil trolls .......

Last edited by Kronos on 02-Jun-2010 at 10:44 AM.

_________________
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@op Quote:

This seems to me like shifting risk of running business from company to customer

That wasn't what I meant. What I proposed was that A-Eon will get a *temporary* bank loan to pay for the manufacture of the X1000 boards. Once they are manufactured, they will expect payment before shipping them. If half the beta testers don't pay, then A-Eon would suddenly find themselves unable to pay-back the temporary bank loan.

The 750 Euros is not to pay for the board manufacture (since it can be refunded at any time), but rather to prove some commitment on the part of each individual. If A-Eon were shipping the boards to well-known Amiga dealers, they would be much more assured that they'd be paid, and therefore they wouldn't need to request anything up-front.

@Kronos
Yeah, whatever.

Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jun-2010 at 10:52 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jun-2010 at 10:47 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jun-2010 at 10:45 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jun-2010 at 10:43 AM.

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