Quote:

What I proposed was that A-Eon will get a *temporary* bank loan to pay for the manufacture of the X1000 boards. Once they are manufactured

They are within rights to do so. It's just very odd way to handle betatesting. I was invited to be betatester/first developer few times in my life. Every time it was free, sometimes hardware was delivered on company dime, sometimes they even paid me. This is the first time when I see requirements so steep. I'm very curious how it will turn out. Maybe Hyperion is laying a ground for new ways of financing startups?

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Quote:

Once they are manufactured, they will expect payment before shipping them. If half the beta testers don't pay, then A-Eon would suddenly find themselves unable to pay-back the temporary bank loan.

And how does the "deposit" change that? If half the beta testers ask for a refund...

I see the usual suspects are extra busy spreading fud.

_________________
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@ChrisH

I'm starting to think the FUD response is the community equivalent of covering your ears and singing loudly. The product is already delayed, for whatever reason, and rather than give boards to key individuals for testing and development, which Trevor himself has a history of doing, they're placing the burden of cost on the testers. The fact that money is changing hands is proof enough. The comment by The Voice that beta testers are not end users is suspicious in and of itself, as it attempts to release A-eon and Hyperion from liability. Be cautious. Be smart. That's all I'm trying to say. They're not going to think less of you or doubt your loyalty because you did the due diligence. If they do, it should give you pause.

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i dont think it helps to tell people to be cautious and smart if they already are all of the contrary. lets just sit and wait.

Quote:

FUD response is the community equivalent of covering your ears

"FUD", "troll", "naysayers", "negativity".

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OK I have kept quiet about this programme, but I, as a long-standing Amiga user would like to say:

1: TrevorDick has enough money to bankroll this project himself, of that we can be reasonably sure. However, he and the A-Eon/Hyperion staff do like to make a song and dance about everything. I implore you NOT to take a serious amount of money from people who really cannot afford this but are desperate for many reasons to have a board. You don't need the money and it is shocking that you are running a beta testing programme in this way. I will not be involving myself as a user or otherwise in anything that seems destined to fail the more the months roll on.

2: This new hardware has just stalled OS features and applications for OS4.x for even longer. Constantly rewriting fundamental parts of AOS every time a proprietary board is released to take over from the last is very unproductive and it is my opinion we will not see anything exciting or advantageous in this platform, given it's bizarre business plan, not to mention lack of developers.

AOS is NOT a commercially viable product, despite all the fools who think otherwise. It simply isn't. For example, the 100 beta tester boards represents 5-10% of the actual number of boards/systems they could possibly sell, the testers vs. users is vastly disproportionate. NDA's? Please! There is nothing worth keeping secret, you might as well post your hw specs and 5 year plan on every forum on the web, it will make no difference to the sad outcome. It's only a shame that a few people keep Hyperion from certain bankruptcy so we all have to keep listening to constant evangelistic drivel from much deluded members of the company and their associates.

My advice? Make OS4 open source and go do something productive!

I am with DaveP on this, I recently got an A1XE to play with OS4, but have decided not to bother and my machine will also be listed on here once I have chance to do some pics. I am not "through" with this hobby as I think OS3.x is great fun and there are things that can be done with it but as for nextgen? When someone picks it up and makes it something for the masses again, I might be interested.

Edit: Spelling

Last edited by A1200 on 02-Jun-2010 at 04:20 PM.

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Quote:

I implore you NOT to take a serious amount of money from people who really cannot afford this but are desperate for many reasons to have a board.

Those people should be responsible enough to instead buy a SAM, used AmigaOne, or used PegII. And if those boards are not "powerful enough" and they don't have the proper money to buy an X1000 then like anything in life you can't afford its up to you to not buy stuff thats too expensive for your finances.

Since when does a liquor store tell someone "sorry, we've analyzed your financial statements and you are better off buying Johnnie Walker Red instead of Blue? Since when does a Porsche dealer say something similar and send you over to the VW dealer instead?

Quote:

it is shocking that you are running a beta testing programme in this way

It is bizarre, thats for sure.

Quote:

AOS is NOT a commercially viable product, despite all the fools who think otherwise.

Calling people fools is not nice. Putting that aside though, while I agree its odd Hyperion has survived as long as they have, somehow they have done it. Along the way they even paid a lawyer for hours upon hours of work in a multi-year case. How thats possible is anyone's guess. But its hard to state without question that the product has zero commercial viability when year after year the company survives and even updates the product.

Quote:

There is nothing worth keeping secret, you might as well post your hw specs and 5 year plan on every forum on the web, it will make no difference to the sad outcome.

I was under the impression this is at least partly because of an NDA A-EON entered into with whoever is sourcing the CPUs for them. If it is just simply that A-EON wants to keep the specs secret then I agree that keeping it secret is not worth it.

Quote:

My advice? Make OS4 open source and go do something productive!

AROS appears to have made some good strides recently. People who really want an open source model should probably consider this a good time to take up supporting AROS IMHO.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Jun-2010 at 04:47 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Jun-2010 at 04:46 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

I don't know if I'd call a used AmigaOne a responsible purchase.

Quote:

Since when does a liquor store tell someone "sorry, we've analyzed your financial statements and you are better off buying Johnnie Walker Red instead of Blue? Since when does a Porsche dealer say something similar and send you over to the VW dealer instead?

Oddly enough, if we did help consumers understand what they can and can't afford, the world wouldn't be in the financial mess it's in today. (Full disclosure: I work in the mortgage servicing industry.) Helping someone understand their finances is a far cry from telling them what they can and can't buy, however, and people are free to make their own buying decisions. Of course, one can refuse to sell (or lend) in the first place. That is the responsible thing to do.

EDIT: And yes, auto dealerships do turn away customers. Quite often, in fact.

Last edited by Trev on 02-Jun-2010 at 05:39 PM.

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Quote:

I don't know if I'd call a used AmigaOne a responsible purchase.

Given the prices they still seem to go for I'd say you got me on that one. lol

Quote:

Of course, one can refuse to sell (or lend) in the first place. That is the responsible thing to do.

There is a big difference there though. Lenders have a responsibility to check out the ability to pay back the debt as they have shareholders to protect. Sellers of consumables have no reason to refuse to sell something to someone when they can present payment for an item. At some point consumers, (i.e. everday folk) who are adults need to wake up and learn to be responsible.

Quote:

Oddly enough, if we did help consumers understand what they can and can't afford, the world wouldn't be in the financial mess it's in today.

Thats the job of parents, government, and lenders. Its not the responsibility of companies offering goods in exchange for monetary payment.

Quote:

EDIT: And yes, auto dealerships do turn away customers. Quite often, in fact.

Only if they are acting as the agent of the lender where its determined that the prospective buyer is not a good credit risk. They would never turn away a customer able to pay in cash or via credit card, or who secured a loan for the vehicle on their own.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Jun-2010 at 05:47 PM.

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Quote:

Thats the job of parents, government, and lenders.

Or anyone with half a heart. Personally, I think it's wrong, but I'm wise enough to know most of the world disagrees with me and has done for most of recorded history.

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fairlanefastback:
Quote:

Since when does a liquor store tell someone "sorry, we've analyzed your financial statements and you are better off buying Johnnie Walker Red instead of Blue? Since when does a Porsche dealer say something similar and send you over to the VW dealer instead?

A good customer care approach is to not rip off your customers to the max with one single purchase, but to build up a sustaining relationship with the customer who then, satisfied by the service and care received, will purchase again.
In the end that maxes out benefit for both sides (customers and dealers), but to act like that you need at least a little bit of a honourable ego and a brain. And some ppl exchanged these things for the option of a few fast $$$.

Last edited by Zylesea on 02-Jun-2010 at 07:20 PM.

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@Trev

Quote:

Or anyone with half a heart. Personally, I think it's wrong, but I'm wise enough to know most of the world disagrees with me and has done for most of recorded history.

I'm trying to understand your point here and maybe I am missing something. Are you saying anyone who sells anything needs to intimately learn about someone's finances before selling them something? And beyond that they need to make a personal moral determination on whether its "fair" to sell them an item they want to buy based on your determination of what their finances mean in the role of the seller?

If I understand you correctly, if that were applied fairly to sellers across various industries then my local supermarket should have access to my bank accounts and do a review to see if its really ok to sell me a Fentiman's 9oz cola at $3 or if I should only be allowed an RC 12 oz cola at $2.

The speed shop should do the same and tell me whether I can afford the 750cfm carb I want in chrome or not. And if they say no then I have to get a 600cfm in natural finish instead?

What about the responsibility of the buyer to spend within his or her means? What about privacy? Why would I want all sellers to know my finances so well and by what standard would sellers apply to determine if I can afford something or not?

It reminds me of the movie "L.A. Story" with Steve Martin where in order to go eat at a restaurant they want all this financial info and then they ask what he will order. He says "maybe the duck" and they say " With this financial statement, you think you can have the duck?...You can have the chicken."

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@Zylesea

Quote:

A good customer care approach is to not rip off your customers to the max with one single purchase

And who would be being "ripped off to the max" with the current approximated price of the X1000? How much does a customer need to make in order for them to move out of the "ripped off" zone and into not being? How should that be defined? Who should define it? And by what process should A-Eon utilize to find out if its a rip-off to someone? Is a rip-off defined by what someone can afford or by what you personally think the board is worth? Or is it determined by what it costs the vendor to do a small production run?

The company has been very clear that they are positioning themselves as the high-end machine maker. If you aren't in the market for a watch at Rolex prices because you can't afford it then you look for alternatives. They even went out of their way to make sure potential customers know about the alternative vendor, Acube, a vendor that has prices that at least become more possible for more folks.

To me a rip-off is when there is a mis-characterization. Like say if they claimed the production cost them $1200 a board and they sold them at $1500 but then we find out later that it cost them $500 a board to make, not $1200, now that would be a rip-off.

So far all they seem to be doing is saying, "Hi, we are going to be making the most powerful machine for AOS 4.x and it will probably cost you about what an Amiga 1000 cost when it first came out".

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Jun-2010 at 08:41 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

I agree re: privacy, but companies like American Express already decide what you can and can't afford before approving a transaction. Behavioral science is used quite widely in the finance industry to limit offers, structure payment plans, etc.

What I'm saying is that if I know a person can't afford a thing, it would be wrong of me to sell them a thing. I'm not saying it's possible to know what someone can or can't afford in every case--unless you're American Express . (EDIT: Your privacy is limited anyway. Everything from credit defaults to friends and neighbors to web browsing history to super market club card purchases can be used to track your behavior. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it what it is. Do what I do and write a letter to Congress.)

Last edited by Trev on 02-Jun-2010 at 09:55 PM.

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@ fastlanefairback

My reply was not especially coined to A-eon and the X1000. But to your statement above. "rip off " in this case was meant as pushing/forcing a sale regardless whether it is good for the customer or not. And there the circle *may* close again.

Last edited by Zylesea on 02-Jun-2010 at 11:17 PM.

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@Trev
Quote:

I'm starting to think the FUD response is the community equivalent of covering your ears and singing loudly...

Personally, I don't want some anonymous stranger telling me what to do let alone how I should spend my time and money. That is probably why you are getting the FUD response. I think it is the equivalent of mind your own business.

It is one thing to share your opinion but it is quite another to start preaching about being smart, etc. That is just parenting gone too far so don't be surprised if you get a rather hostile response.

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@ssolie

Am I anonymous? The last time I checked, all of my ill-conceived FidoNet and Usenet posts from high school circa 1992 are still floating around. I'm a lot less anonymous than I'd like to be.

If I'm preaching anything, it's caveat emptor, but who wants to be trite? The bit about seeking legal advice is just common sense. Who in their right mind signs away rights without talking to an attorney first? Even an attorney would talk to another attorney. Seriously, though.

The rest was just a continuation of the thread, a fun way to waste time.

EDIT: Here's something I wrote in 1996 that wasn't so ill-conceived, except for the poor grammar:

Quote:

While Intel and IBM/Cyrix processors are powerful, the processor alone wouldn't match the performance of the N64. Keep in mind that the N64 has dedicated video hardware and a specialized bus. When standards such as Direct3D gain mainstream support, and better PCI video cards supporting a wider range of 3D API's (most importantly, driver support for Direct3D), we might start to see some serious 3D software. You can site current examples, but most of them are specialized products designed for specific video cards, not standards. Until then, high-end workstations and dedicated gaming machines are going to be the domain of 3D software.

UltraHLE (the famous Nintendo 64 emulator) was released in 1999, after just about everyone had purchased a 3dfx card (mine was a Diamond Monster 3D) to play Quake, and Glide had become a de facto standard.

Anyhow, that wasn't at all relevant, but it was a fun walk down memory lane.

Last edited by Trev on 03-Jun-2010 at 01:09 AM.

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@Trev

American Express is a lender/creditor. You apply for credit with them and when you do you agree to grant them access to your credit report. As I mentioned before thats an entirely different business than selling consumables to people.

Quote:

What I'm saying is that if I know a person can't afford a thing, it would be wrong of me to sell them a thing. I'm not saying it's possible to know what someone can or can't afford in every case

This is where I am confused then. Why bring it up in regard to A-Eon? Acube is not checking if you should be spending $796 USD approx. for a SAM 460 when it comes out. Neither is Dell if you buy a $4000+ USD Area-51 ALX Desktop from them. Why does A-EON need to somehow divine this when no one else in the world does?

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@Zylesea

Quote:

"rip off " in this case was meant as pushing/forcing a sale regardless whether it is good for the customer or not.

How is a company that tells people their machine is not for everyone and tells people they can buy fine less powerful alternatives in an Acube rig "pushing/forcing a sale"? Where on top of that they are clearly saying if you buy a beta X1000 that you will not be considered an end-user (at the least for some period of time). None of this seems to be a display of heavy handed salesmanship.

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