@Nibunnoichi

The Peg was discontined, because the market was mostly saturated and the chips used didn't comply with new regulations (ROHS). While it was available it sold several times the numbers of the SAMs sold sofar.

Neither the GC nor the Pippin are suitable as a desktop computer, the Peg and the Mini are.

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- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Kronos

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Poster: Kronos Date: 26-Jun-2009 11:36:28 @Nibunnoichi The Peg was discontined, because the market was mostly saturated and the chips used didn't comply with new regulations (ROHS). While it was available it sold several times the numbers of the SAMs sold sofar. Neither the GC nor the Pippin are suitable as a desktop computer, the Peg and the Mini are.

Yes, i know why it was discontinued, i was sarcastic. I think nobody is denying the fact that it was brilliant hardware.
Btw you can't compare sales figures since you don't know Acube's.
I don't know what the current situation is but i believe that Genesi had deeper pockets available at that time than ACube has now, so you can't pretend that AC comes out with tons of designs every year, they've started relatively recently compared to Genesi. I mean, they shurely aren't idiots and know that people want faster machines but then they need some time to make some earnings to reinvest in R&D.

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Neither the GC nor the Pippin are suitable as a desktop computer, the Peg and the Mini are.

It depends on what's your definition of "computer"
For example there's an official ethernet adapter and broadband modem for the GC, an SD reader and you can install a specific Linux distro on it.
The Pippin is basically a repackaged Mac, in fact it's 100% compatible with classic MacOS and its software.


Edit: it's Genesi not Genesis... talking about consoles distracted me.

Last edited by Nibunnoichi on 26-Jun-2009 at 10:09 AM.

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Proud Amigan since 1987
Owner of various Commodore and a SAM440ep\OS4.1FE
See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

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They are pleased to announce a downgrade?

Read my points from earlier. They are pleased to announce more demand than expected. That doesn't make them chip moguls so that they can control availability and prices of CPUs however.

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Sam

@Kronos

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b) Why not ? If a new car is worse in every aspect than another (used) car, there is no point in buying the new one.

In every aspect ??

I'll mention at least three aspects where the Mac Mini is worse than a Sam-flex:

1) Gfx memory: on my Mac Mini ( 1.25 Ghz model) the gfx chip used is the same class as the M9 used on the Sam mini-itx model but has only 32 Mb, the same amount as on the microA1, and with compositing enabled, on a moderm LCD screen (with screen resolutions above 1440x900) with a few 32 bit screens opened, it's very very easy to fill it up. But while on the Sam flex you have a PCI slot available to put a more modern card (even a HD2400 as a beta testers are already using and testing, and with gfx memory up to to 512 Mb with the latest HD4350) on the Mac Mini you are stuck with the onboard gfx chip and memory.

2) PATA interface: the Mac Mini uses an old, slow and outdated 2.5 HD on a PATA interface, while on the Sam-flex you can use up to 4x modern SATA HD, with a very fast transfer rate (there is a thread here on AW which show how fast is the SATA interface on Sam) and on the Mac Mini you are stuck with the PATA interface since there is no way to upgrade it (and you have to use a 2.5 HD since there is no space in the case...)

3) general expandibility, on Sam-flex there are 2 free PCI slots to be used to add a better audio card for example (the Mac Mini has only a single stereo jack to provide audio output) a Catweasel, or (insert you prefered card here)

At the end, the Mac Mini has a faster CPU and a lower cost (we're talking about a 4 years old machine at least), but there is no way you can work around the impossibility to expand it over it's limits, especially in my eyes, the limited gfx memory available, and the slow and limited HD interface.

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Massimiliano Tretene, ACube Systems, Soft3

@Kronos

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While it was available it sold several times the numbers of the SAMs sold sofar.

Uhm... I'm wondering, from where you have taken the number of Sam boards sold sofar?

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Massimiliano Tretene, ACube Systems, Soft3

I'm thinking the same as the fellow countrymen. But....: Why is this AmigaOne working in more Mhz than any Sam todays? Or is that not so important?

@m3x 

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3) general expandibility, on Sam-flex there are 2 free PCI slots to be used to add a better audio card for example (the Mac Mini has only a single stereo jack to provide audio output) a Catweasel, or (insert you prefered card here)

Ot here but Is there an issue with the first free PCI slot on the sam flex and UBoot?
I have an old Sound Blaster Live 5.1 soundcard and cant get the Sam Flex to boot with it
installed in the first free PCI slot. It works with no problems in the last slot.

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Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

Well, theres another + for the SAM. If there are problems in UBoot, ACube can provide firmware updates.

Also, SAMs come with a warrantee from ACube.

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Playstation Network ID: xeron6

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Tell you what. I'm willing to bet that if awesome* hardware becomes available within, say, 1 year from now, you and Leo are still going to bitch about something. And you won't purchase.

very funny. Let me know how many os4 betatesters bought OS4 for their classic regardless of having it for free. I did. Silly me because Hyperion don't give a f*** about classic users because they want to sell OS4 with "dongle" hardware. I call it "dongle" because nobody would buy it if it didn't run OS4, most of people would choose other options.

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*: Let's say about 8 times the performance of the SAM, at 5 times the price. I know we all want our hardware and software for free, but it would be a step in the right direction, after all (more bang for the buck AND more peak bang)

5 times the price? you mean 5 times *more expensive*??? if Sam440 is around 400Euros for a bare motherboard we are talking about 2000Euros for just a bare board. Are you crazy? Do you really expect someone in his right mind would waste such a lot of money on a bare board that won't allow to do anything useful?

8 times the performance of the SAM? I'm afraid it ain't much. Since Sam440 lacks cacheL2 and G4 cpus have big L2 caches I guess Mac Mini G4/1.5Ghz will probably crush Sam performance in multimedia stuff thanks to Altivec and its big caches. Mac Mini G4/1.5Ghz will probably be 4-8 times faster than current Sam440.

Hyperion should support Mac Mini G4 and once Mac Mini version is released then support G5 machines. That *old* machines are more powerful than any machine their partners could build. And they'll be cheaper too.

Do you think it's normal to sell 700Mhz computers in 2009 and charge 400Euros? Efika was less powerful but costed 99$, not a great investment to "try it out".

Even if they released OS4 for Mac Mini officially or your vapor hardware that's slower than old MacG5 don't expect miracles... Amiga is a hobby and you won't make old A500 users come back forcing them to waste 400Euros on a bare motherboard.

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The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@Fransexy

since just 300 microA1s were sold I guess there was not much interest in "new overpriced hardware with slow ppc without altivec"

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The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

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If it was so wonderful and cheap, i wonder why everybody in the world doesn't have a Peg under his desk, it really escapes me, uh?

probably because some fanboys screamed that it was built by slaves, that MorphOS was evil, that BBRV was evil and that OS4 is going to be released in just two more weeks, or the lies about memory protection, automatic stack enlargement and other stuff. And also because Pegasos2 is evil and A1 is much better (just look at the number of A1 users who sold their machines as soon as they could to get the obviously superior Pegasos2).

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Just ask who decided to discontinue it, which is not Acube's fault i suppose.

When Pegasos2 was released it was bastly superior to the previous amiga compatible machines, it provided decent speed compared to other OSX/Windows/Linux platforms (e.g. it could play all video formats without performance problems). As a comparison mainstream computers like Mac Mini used faster G4 but there was not so much difference as now.

It's ACube fault to release something that can't be sold as an upgrade to existing OS4 users and that probably won't attract many users (who's interested in sub-ghz computers in 2009?)

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Anyhow, i really feel the need to do my public address now: i have a couple of Nintendo GameCubes and an Apple Bandai Pippin and both use PowerPC processors: you MUST port AOS4 to them!! Especially the GC is widely available and can be bought for under 40 Euros, damn you Hyperion!!!!!!

I'm starting to think that some users just can't notice the difference between a 500Mhz and a 1.5Ghz computer or the difference between a console with 80MB of ram and a computer with 1GB... or the difference between spending 99$ and 400Euros. Well, I'm afraid for Hyperion because they won't find many users like you ready to buy anything they sell.

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The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@m3x

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1) Gfx memory: on my Mac Mini ( 1.25 Ghz model) the gfx chip used is the same class as the M9 used on the Sam mini-itx model but has only 32 Mb

You can have decent Mac Mini with a 167 MHz FSB and with 64MB VMEM. Clock rates are up to 1.5 GHz which is twice more than SAM or 1.5 times of Pegasos II G4.

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2) PATA interface: the Mac Mini uses an old, slow and outdated 2.5 HD on a PATA interface

But how relevant it is to everyday usage? Nobody cared about it when AmigaOne hd sucky transfer rates and I doubt anyone cares today either.

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At the end, the Mac Mini has a faster CPU and a lower cost (we're talking about a 4 years old machine at least), but there is no way you can work around the impossibility to expand it over it's limits, especially in my eyes, the limited gfx memory available, and the slow and limited HD interface.

But then you can have Pegasos II G4 which is still the best Amiga PPC out there. And SAM does not have AltiVec which could accelerate graphics operations or multimedia applications in general.

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Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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In every aspect ??

in most of aspects, including price

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1) Gfx memory: on my Mac Mini ( 1.25 Ghz model) the gfx chip used is the same class as the M9 used on the Sam mini-itx model but has only 32 Mb, the same amount as on the microA1, and with compositing enabled, on a moderm LCD screen (with screen resolutions above 1440x900) with a few 32 bit screens opened, it's very very easy to fill it up. But while on the Sam flex you have a PCI slot available to put a more modern card (even a HD2400 as a beta testers are already using and testing, and with gfx memory up to to 512 Mb with the latest HD4350) on the Mac Mini you are stuck with the onboard gfx chip and memory.

On the other hand Mac Mini has real AGP and a cpu that can move lots of polys. It also has Altivec so it can do multimedia stuff much faster.

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2) PATA interface: the Mac Mini uses an old, slow and outdated 2.5 HD on a PATA interface, while on the Sam-flex you can use up to 4x modern SATA HD, with a very fast transfer rate (there is a thread here on AW which show how fast is the SATA interface on Sam) and on the Mac Mini you are stuck with the PATA interface since there is no way to upgrade it (and you have to use a 2.5 HD since there is no space in the case...)

There are nice Western Digital Scorpio 250/320GB for sale. And chinese sata-ide adaptors cost just a few euros. You also have firewire.

If you really wanted you could do as some users and put Mac Mini on a tower with a 3.5HD and a DVD drive (I wouldn't do it).

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3) general expandibility, on Sam-flex there are 2 free PCI slots to be used to add a better audio card for example (the Mac Mini has only a single stereo jack to provide audio output) a Catweasel, or (insert you prefered card here)

If you really want to record audio you could use the usb2.0 ports of the Mac Mini. If you want to connect a Video Camera you could do it through Firewire. I guess that since it's possible to read amiga disks and create images on a normal PC it would be possible through USB with the proper adapter and driver.

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At the end, the Mac Mini has a faster CPU and a lower cost (we're talking about a 4 years old machine at least), but there is no way you can work around the impossibility to expand it over it's limits, especially in my eyes, the limited gfx memory available, and the slow and limited HD interface.

Mac Mini has firewire (that allows connecting video cameras, hard disks...), usb2 (that works at full speed), allows 1GB of memory without problems (unlike Sam440) and the HD interface will probably be slightly better than Peg2/A1/microA1. SATA-IDE adapters are very cheap.

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The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

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I'm starting to think that some users just can't notice the difference between a 500Mhz and a 1.5Ghz computer or the difference between a console with 80MB of ram and a computer with 1GB... or the difference between spending 99$ and 400Euros.

I don't know, but i suppose that at this point everyone has realized that you're the only clever guy around, the one who saw the light and the rest of us are idiots who wouldn't like to have better/faster/cooler hardware and pay it less. It's a sad truth, i know, thank you for enlighten us.
Anyhow i can notice the difference between dead hardware and hardware that if gets broken you can have repaired under warranty or replace if you decide to buy a new one, or where you can open the case and tinker, change graphic cards, disks etc. If your shining Macmini breaks you have to bring it to an Apple authorized center (where nothing is cheap even when it's still in production) and hope that they don't laugh in your face for bringing that ancient brick them while hoping they still have spare parts around, otherwise you'll have a fast, snappy, fantastic and cool designed cadaver in your room.

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Well, I'm afraid for Hyperion because they won't find many users like you ready to buy anything they sell.

How can you possibly know what i do in my private life?

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Proud Amigan since 1987
Owner of various Commodore and a SAM440ep\OS4.1FE
See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

It might be worth it to note the clone PC companies sell millions of their " downgraded" models every year; only a modest percentage buy the hottest,fastest,biggest machine whether it be a computer or a car!

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a great new amiga youtube video from helgis have been released! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gpjjX4xv_4

LOL

"Perhaps God is using an Amiga too": seriously, what did you smoke ?? I want some !! :)

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Nibunnoichi

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I don't know, but i suppose that at this point everyone has realized that you're the only clever guy around, the one who saw the light and the rest of us are idiots who wouldn't like to have better/faster/cooler hardware and pay it less. It's a sad truth, i know, thank you for enlighten us.

It seems some people like to negate the obvious so I guess I have to enlight them

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Anyhow i can notice the difference between dead hardware and hardware that if gets broken you can have repaired under warranty or replace if you decide to buy a new one, or where you can open the case and tinker, change graphic cards, disks etc.

Really? There are availability problems with Sam440, let me guess that if your Sam440 got broken I could replace my Mac Mini faster and cheaper than you could get your Sam440 back.

You can change harddisks and dvd units on Mac Mini. Graphic card can't be changed but my Mini has 64MB, enough for a 3d desktop. It also has proper AGP port that will give you AGP speeds and a cpu capable of moving lots of polygons, unlike the cache-L2 less Sam440.


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If your shining Macmini breaks you have to bring it to an Apple authorized center (where nothing is cheap even when it's still in production) and hope that they don't laugh in your face for bringing that ancient brick them while hoping they still have spare parts around, otherwise you'll have a fast, snappy, fantastic and cool designed cadaver in your room.

If my Mac Mini broke I would buy another one (or the components I need) cheaper than the cost of sending the Sam440 and repairing it.


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otherwise you'll have a fast, snappy, fantastic and cool designed cadaver in your room.

at least it comes with a case, hard disk and dvd drive. If Mac Mini broke I guess that I could buy a replacement motherboard and put it on a micro ATX case like Sam440 users have to do.

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How can you possibly know what i do in my private life?

What has to do private life with the number of sales? I'm talking about public behaviour defending anything Hyperion does/decides to do.

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The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

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Mac Mini G4/1.5Ghz will probably be 4-8 times faster than current Sam440.

In most tasks, G4/1.5 GHz will be three times faster than SAM. Nice but not that impressive...

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Efika was less powerful but costed 99$, not a great investment to "try it out".

I would like to use my computer not only look on it.


Neither SAM nor MacMini are computers for me, I simply don´t have enough space for another machine, thus I need something portable.

@itix

The point was the Mac Mini only had pluses than a Sam-flex, I showed 3 cases which show, in my opinion, it isn't.

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You can have decent Mac Mini with a 167 MHz FSB and with 64MB VMEM. Clock rates are up to 1.5 GHz which is twice more than SAM or 1.5 times of Pegasos II G4.

As said, no words about the G4 performances. Anyway even 64 Mb VMEM are not enough for a lot of users, with OS4.1 on a Sam mini-itx, people can run pretty quickly low on gfx ram as well (the M9 has 64 Mb vmen as well)
And IIRC, the DVI port on the Mac Mini is limited to HDMI 1.1, which means you can never reach resolutions higher than 1920x1080@32 bit over digital due the limited bandwidth (165 Mhz) while this problem doesn't exist on newer PCI cards.

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but how relevant it is to everyday usage? Nobody cared about it when AmigaOne hd sucky transfer rates and I doubt anyone cares today either.

When the pager kicks in, I bet you'll notice the difference between a slower HD interface and a faster one.

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But then you can have Pegasos II G4 which is still the best Amiga PPC out there. And SAM does not have AltiVec which could accelerate graphics operations or multimedia applications in general.

And how a no more produced board (in limited quantity in respect to Apple hw) can help to increase the amiga user base (be it MOS or OS4.1) ?

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Massimiliano Tretene, ACube Systems, Soft3

@Spectre660

It could be possible there is a bug in the PCI resources handling which prevents the gfx board to be initialized.
Could you please capture the UBoot output from the serial port (115200 8N1) and send it to me?

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Massimiliano Tretene, ACube Systems, Soft3