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Anyway, I'm not being critical, just realistic

You're not.

"The Friedens" have not benefited from anything. If someone did, Hyperion has, but neither my brother nor myself. There have been only two open sourced projects we ever benefited from, namely the port of d2x (for which source code was available) and Jagged Alliance 2 (which no source code was available for). Even then, I have never demanded money for any of these, so your allegation is a slight bit far fetched.

For Timberwolf, as I pointed out on friedenhq.org already, the original intention was to donate the source code to Amizilla. Certain things however bothered me with that (like for example I didn't see why the initial port would only get 25% of the bounty, seeing that after ten years nobody ever got anywhere. Call me greedy, but I thought it deserved more). The next idea was to do it "just so" and release everything. Certain blue tinted attacks have however swayed our minds into making it closed source and OS 4 only. If you read e.g. the comments on amiga-news.de where it only took ten comments for the first to imply the video that drHirudo was running faster than recorded (fraud) and only 13 comments until it got downright personal again, I think it's our right to do this port for AmigaOS 4.x only.

Note also, that we have never ever received any query on whether we would reconsider. Nobody tried to argue. Just insult.

Having said that, I can only say I am happy that the release of Timberwolf was well-received by the community, and I hope we will be able to continue releasing Alphas (and betas eventually) down the line - we'll try to do this as often as possible, it will however depend on tangible progress; time is currently the limiting factor, since the X-1000 work is in full gear.

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@Rogue
Quote:

For Timberwolf, as I pointed out on friedenhq.org already, the original intention was to donate the source code to Amizilla. Certain things however bothered me with that (like for example I didn't see why the initial port would only get 25% of the bounty,

Which is exactly why you could have done it for all platforms by yourself, and get 75% more. Also, if that bothered you so much, did you ever try re-negotiating the terms?

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seeing that after ten years nobody ever got anywhere.

First you give this sort of badmouthing to EVERYONE, who tried their best to get this huge task one (remember that back when the bounty started, Firefox didn't use Cairo yet, so a port was MUCH harder), and then complain about "Certain blue tinted attacks"?

Sure, we never got a fully (or even "as well as TimberWolf alpha") working version, but there most definitely was a version compiled for 68k somewhere in the early 2000's, by some russian team, iirc. Sure, it was totally useless, as it was impossible to bring up the GUI (it could basically give some responses to command line args, and that was about it), but in my opinion it was WAY beyond the "nothing" you (and others) seem to constantly imply. And this was with the "much harder to port" codebase too (before Firefox started to use Cairo)

Also you seem to forget the efforts put into Firefox port by afxgroup (thread started 11-Jul-2007) - is that also worth nothing?

Sure I understand your port is (already at this state) way superior to any Firefox port we have seen this far (but then again, your porting job is now way easier than a decade ago), but I strongly object to you claiming "nobody (else) ever got anywhere."

@Jupp3

Quote:

Sure I understand your port is (already at this state) way superior to any Firefox port we have seen this far (but then again, your porting job is now way easier than a decade ago), but I strongly object to you claiming "nobody (else) ever got anywhere."

Nice joke... where I can download any other (at least partially) working port of FF?


Frieden brothers are right in this regard. Why should they even bother with port to other OSs? They would like to have FF on OS4. If you want this browser on MorphOS, AROS or other OS, you can do the same: port it yourself.

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Nice joke... where I can download any other (at least partially) working port of FF?

Even if I did remember the server where the old 68k version was posted, it most likely wouldn't work anymore. Also, I probably no longer have the binary, at least it's not on the HD I currently have in my A1200 (seriously, it was rather huge program for that time, and it's been a decade... And it was practically useless)

I don't know if the version by afxgroup was ever released, but do you think he was lying about it?

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Frieden brothers are right in this regard. Why should they even bother with port to other OSs?

With open source in general, you don't need to bother what might be done with your code. Other people will use it in the way they want, which might or might not benefit you in any way (you could get code enhancements for platform you want to bother supporting) - but in this case it's clearly something different.

-EDIT-
And yes, I do know that Firefox license does allow partially closed source ports. But on the other hand, all new code is encouraged to be open source aswell.

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They would like to have FF on OS4. If you want this browser on MorphOS, AROS or other OS, you can do the same: port it yourself.

There's already a better browser ported: OWB

Can't see any reason to bother with Firefox. Porting it "just to show OS4 developers, that we can do it too" feels rather pointless considering I don't see anything that Firefox would add that OWB doesn't have, or could be made to support. Except for perhaps being a big name that many people recognize.

Last edited by Jupp3 on 13-Jun-2010 at 09:02 PM.

Quote:

Which is exactly why you could have done it for all platforms by yourself, and get 75% more

IF I had any knowledge about these other platforms, or cared about them.

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Also, if that bothered you so much, did you ever try re-negotiating the terms?

How? I would suppose that the terms were somewhat tied up, seeing how people that donated would have to agree to that

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First you give this sort of badmouthing to EVERYONE, who tried their best to get this huge task one (remember that back when the bounty started, Firefox didn't use Cairo yet, so a port was MUCH harder), and then complain about "Certain blue tinted attacks"?

I didn't badmouth anyone. I just stated facts. There is no Firefox port available, I remember seeing one binary for 68k that didn't work at all. Yes, the prerequisites changed, but that didn't happen just yesterday, Firefox uses Cairo for quite a while.

Quote:

Also you seem to forget the efforts put into Firefox port by afxgroup (thread started 11-Jul-2007) - is that also worth nothing?

FWIW, I know this port didn't do anything, and I even know why - because it used GTK and the GTK port does use some features that didn't work under AmigaOS. Besides he was using the NSPR port that my brother and me did.

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I strongly object to you claiming "nobody (else) ever got anywhere."

You can also strongly object to the sky being blue without actually making it true. If that were the case, we would have at least seen SOMETHING.

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Can't see any reason to bother with Firefox. Porting it "just to show OS4 developers, that we can do it too" feels rather pointless considering I don't see anything that Firefox would add that OWB doesn't have, or could be made to support. Except for perhaps being a big name that many people recognize.

Nice try. That's the BS that people usually quote... "XX is so much better, why bother"

Pathetic, just like your self-righteous indignation.

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Quote:

Quote: I strongly object to you claiming "nobody (else) ever got anywhere." You can also strongly object to the sky being blue without actually making it true. If that were the case, we would have at least seen SOMETHING.

Well then that's obviously where our opinions differ. At least I definitely count "successfully compiled, but not really usable" as "something".

Oh, by the way, thanks for confirming the existence of the old 68k Firefox binary, I was already afraid I was the only one who still remembers it

Quote:

Quote: Can't see any reason to bother with Firefox. Porting it "just to show OS4 developers, that we can do it too" feels rather pointless considering I don't see anything that Firefox would add that OWB doesn't have, or could be made to support. Except for perhaps being a big name that many people recognize. Nice try. That's the BS that people usually quote... "XX is so much better, why bother" Pathetic, just like your self-righteous indignation.

Well not any more BS than trying to claim that OWB based browser couldn't be better.

But still, I don't think it would make much sense for someone to port Firefox just to show you "look, we can also do this without your help!"

yeah yeah, FF is no better, that must be why it has much more support than OWB in about any conceivable way or form, bigger team developing it and why people complaint about this being an AmigaOS exclusive.
Firefox already has whatever OWB "could" implement, stupid arguments such as "we don't care for this or that", "we only implement what we think is cool", is just sour grape talk (I would avoid the embarrassment).
As for OWB being "faster" usual (Gekko VS Webkit argument) it just doesn't happen to be so on AmigaOS.

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yeah yeah, FF is no better, that must be why it has much more support than OWB in about any conceivable way or form, bigger team developing it

I wouldn't really call Webkit development team small. I shouldn't need to remind it's also used in major browsers such as Safari and Chrome, which of course are currently smaller than firefox in popularity, even if companies behind them (google & apple) are bigger. The fact that our OWB ports have OWB "above" webkit isn't that relevant. It's webkit that really counts.

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and why people complaint about this being an AmigaOS exclusive.

Firstly, it's not AmigaOS exclusive but available on most modern-ish platforms (except for this particular branch), if anyone developer feels childish enough to show "Look, we can have this native-looking OWB AND Firefox aswell!", he can start wasting his time right away.

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Firefox already has whatever OWB "could" implement

Oh, didn't know it had native MUI / Reaction GUI, somehow I had missed that. I apologize.

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stupid arguments such as "we don't care for this or that", "we only implement what we think is cool", is just sour grape talk (I would avoid the embarrassment).

I can't see why so many OS4 users try to push MorphOS developers to do their own Firefox port (to be justified to say "OWB is still nicer")

I don't have to remind you that Webkit is nothing more than an HTML renderer while Firefox is a whole platform.
Moreover, whatever the big Firefox team does we get the same in AmigaOS ((and there are already a godzillion things ready for it), while if Apple does something special on top of WebKit for its Safari browser you get zilch in OWB.

Last edited by DAX on 15-Jun-2010 at 03:28 PM.
Last edited by DAX on 15-Jun-2010 at 03:27 PM.

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Quote:

Moreover, whatever the big Firefox team does we get the same in AmigaOS

And in that case, someone either:
1)Adapts those changes for OWB or:
2)Ports Firefox

Don't know about OS4 version, but MorphOS version has support for f.ex. greasemonkey-like scripts. And porting Firefox isn't at all unrealistic target for a skilled developer, but I am happy to see the effort is currently put into OWB instead.

I like OWB, you like Firefox. It's as simple as that. I have no doubt that Timberwolf will likely be fully usable browser in the future (and I could "manage" with that), but I'll still prefer OWB with its nice MUI user interface

Call me old fashioned or whatever, but I do like the idea of having "our own browser" with native UI, especially when it doesn't otherwise restrict usage (due to incomplete support for latest html standards, as is with ibrowse, aweb etc.)

Last edited by Jupp3 on 16-Jun-2010 at 07:02 AM.

More power to you then, I'm not here to tell you what you should like (my comment was just to point out that AOS TW and other platforms FF are very related while developments of WebKit based browsers, such as Safari, are not necessarily related to OWB as they might add custom stuff on top of WebKit, which is just the chosen renderer, and OWB won't get that).
In my case FF is my main Windows browser where I use plug-ins customizations and the likes (I have 6 browsers installed mind you), and could not desire a better one for AmigaOS (it also brings XUL to the platform, we'll see what we get out of that too...).

Last edited by DAX on 15-Jun-2010 at 04:40 PM.

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