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Software News   Software News : Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
   posted by RuDeE on 9-Jun-2010 15:29:19 (16248 reads)
From Amigabounty.net:

Quote:

We have to apologize for the long absence. Workload, personal issues and other things slowed down development considerably.

However, we're finally able to make the first binary release of Timberwolf. This is going to be an Alpha version, meaning it will be prone to crashing and misbehavior, it will be slow, and not all functionality is implemented yet.

Future plans include an update to the latest baseline source code of Firefox (3.7 beta), an Amiga-specific theme, as well as a major rewrite of the rendering code. The current version of the rendering code (Did we mention it's an alpha release ?) has some conceptual problems that will lead to misrenderings, and massive overdraw (some webpages might be rendered 2 to 8 times, you may notice the window will turn black several times during page buildup).

Feedback is welcome; please point your browsers at http://amigans.net and visit the Timberwolf support forum.

Have fun with the first release.
    

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PosterThread
SHADES 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 11:09:22
#61 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 712
From: Melbourne

What an absolutely fantastic effort.

Well done Frieden Brothers.

Really, can't say it enough.


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DAX 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 12:34:38
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Opi
Quote:
While I admire The Brothers' work on Firefox for OS4 your statement is groundless

Using the power of x86 CPUs and using the differences between Webkit browsers and Firefox there (and then comparing those differences with what we have now ie:Webkit based OWB on our CPUs), we assumed that FF would just crawl here so my "assumption" is based on the fact that FF running on Sam is way faster than anyone expected, which means that some how this native AmigaOS version is doing something right (and it's full of bugs that bogs it down go figure).
So again I "assume" that once the final version is out it will be faster than this and by extension that the same final version will be blistering fast on the X1000 (previously people thought it would be unusable on Sam, and decent on the X1000).

Further more considering how people lament FF speed in the PC world and prefer Webkit based browsers in that regard (while here Webkit based OWB isn't any faster aside from some advantages that it now has only due to TW being a very early Alpha) a new scenario is coming out here where Webkit browsers won't be faster than TW on Amiga, which also mean that our FF implementation is somehow faster than the others (that or we simply have a Faster OS that allow these results).

Last edited by DAX on 10-Jun-2010 at 12:37 PM.


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opi 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 13:07:29
#63 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Dax

I don't see Firefox performing better on AmigaOS vs. Whatever/X86 assuming same CPU power. There's no magic in AmigaOS that would speed up data crunching in Gecko and I don't think it's The Brothers job to optimize it.

Quote:
AmigaOS version is doing something right


I think you're experiencing placebo effect. After watching YouTube video of alpha release I see nothing that amazing about performance. It works, it loads pages. Speed seems to be on par on sub 1Ghz machine .

Of course we will need to wait for full release. I hope it will hit on commercial release of X1000. That would be nice add on to news headlines.


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djnick 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 13:24:17
#64 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Jun-2003
Posts: 945
From: space

Thank your Frieden Bross :) Your work is really great!!!
Pity I don`t own real Amiga here but I hope in near future...
In the mean time I will watch Youtube videos and screenshots :)


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Panthro 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 13:28:46
#65 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-May-2006
Posts: 391
From: Unknown

Super Frieden Bros. do it again thanks heaps!!


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Fab 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 14:22:35
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@DAX

TimberWolf is indeed not as slow as one could have expected, but it's certainly not faster than OWB, even on OS4. Of course you resort to that ign.com website again and again, but a simple build option in webkit can fix it and make it much faster. And with timberwolf, ign.com doesn't actually display the whole content (some areas appear empty in the second half), so it has less content to draw, anyway.

It's said that Timberwolf could be made 2-8 faster, why not. But then OWB could also be made much faster, using cairo hardware acceleration (and even more if JavascriptCore JIT added a PPC backend, but let's stop dreaming, the focus is on x86 and arm these days :)).

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meet.mrnrg 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 15:33:35
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 5-Feb-2007
Posts: 1919
From: UK, AUS, US

@itix

Please elaborate;
1) Where where/are these downloads?
2) Whats been happening? What where the delays obstacles?
3) Whats changed that brought about the Amiga OS4.1 release a few weeks ago?


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DAX 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 15:35:54
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Fab
I was hoping you could reply a question I had for you some posts back (you must have missed it due to the fast pace of this thread) and that was: IGN in OWB/SAM in the past was slow, than IGN eliminated the scrolling background and it was all fine, then recently while on PC I see no difference in the page, on OWB is worst than ever.
So the questions are two actually: 1) what happened is it OWB or did IGN changed something again?
And 2) the change you talk about to improve IGN on OWB is to bring it back to when it was behaving correctly or something different that would make a huge difference on Sam too?
I am asking because when I'm comparing the two browsers I'm doing it with when IGN worked fine not with today's behavior (which makes it unusable) and FF is way faster on Sam.
By the way, the missing block you talk about is not missing at all, is even re-rendered more than once with a an error that makes it disappear when scrolling down and re-appear if you scroll up. it's a glitch but it is an overhead there, certainly not an aid.

P.S.
I would certainly love the competition you talk about, we ALL win that way


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DAX 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 15:37:43
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Opi.
Quote:
I don't see Firefox performing better on AmigaOS vs. Whatever/X86 assuming same CPU power.

Makes sense, but sam-wise that's not what i've been hearing, many are reporting that on Sam AmigaOS is way faster than Debian so this might extend to Native FF as well (and who knows? to x86 debian when the latter is intastalled on a CPU that has the same power of the one installed in the X1000, which we still don't know what it is I'm not saying it will surely is, but could). Anyway, a user a while back was asking why everyone thought FF would crawl on Sam while it was already working just fine under Debian, while anything else performed faster on AmigaOS (so he believed FF would follow suit), also this video is interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_1PjOEFPTk

Quote:
I think you're experiencing placebo effect. After watching YouTube video of alpha release I see nothing that amazing about performance.

No just the amazement at the scope of things, we all know that "WebKit VS Gecko on PC"= the first is way faster, while when we turn to Amiga, they turned out to be quite similar and this on a early alpha that re-renders the pages from 2 to 8 times and that has many other performance bugs.

All I'm saying is we went from "it will crawl" to "it actually performs quite well with all these bugs" (@Fab. which is amazing regardless to how it compares to OWB), and based on this I am willing to forecast additional positive surprises for when the final version will be out...

Anyway we can do tests on same HW (Sam for example) when the final version will get out, it will be an interesting exercise wouldn't you agree?


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opi 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 16:03:18
#70 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

Quote:
Sam AmigaOS is way faster than Debian


Linux implementation of Firefox is poor. Here's a loading test made by my friend. Linux/Firefox combination wins only over iPad.

http://pornel.net/speed

Quote:
will be an interesting exercise wouldn't you agree?


Sure.

Quote:
his video is interesting


This is "Cotton candy is lighter than bricks" argument. Sure, but you won't build house out of it. We have discussed this over and over again. I don't want to get off topic.


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Fab 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 16:30:49
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@DAX

Like you said, IGN was slow before on OWB (and other browsers) because of that static background, but they dropped it since.

Now the thing that makes your OWB version crawl is a shadow effect that the cairo backend struggles with (due to its implementation). Disable or Fix that effect implementation, and it's all fast again. This only applies to the WebKit builds using cairo backend, of course, which means safari, chrome and several other WebKit derivates aren't affected at all.

Last edited by Fab on 10-Jun-2010 at 04:33 PM.

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DAX 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 16:42:52
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Fab
you mean IGN has added this shadow effect recently?


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DAX 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 16:53:39
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Opi
Quote:
Linux implementation of Firefox is poor

Well at least let's be glad that AmigaOS one it's not

Anyway, when we will know what CPU the x1000 has, we might compare TM and FF with a similar CPU (power wise I mean) running Windows and/or MacOS then(no?)


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Fab 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 17:07:47
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@DAX

Apparently. I don't visit it that often.

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opi 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 17:13:30
#75 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Dax

Quote:
Anyway, when we will know what CPU the x1000 has, we might compare TM and FF with a similar CPU (power wise I mean) running Windows and/or MacOS then(no?)


Yup. But at the end of the day I take slow/stable over fast/crashy. If Firefox would be slower on AmigaOS than Windows I would say anything bad about it. There's no chance to beat Windows developers (in numbers and resources). So, if Firefox will be stable and reasonably fast I would call it a success.

It's not lowering bar it's being realistic.


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DAX 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 17:36:43
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Opi
That's reasonable, anyway we'll have to wait and see what happens


@Fab
In any case I doubt that an additional shadow is something that would help rendering speed (it might slow it down if anything), when there was no shadow at all, the site worked well, but, for example, you see the main graphical menu (where you have the thumbnails below and and the bigger image above) it always had a small lag when changing and when you hovered the mouse over it, same goes for those fancy silver menus that appear if you hover the pointer on PS3-PC etc, and what amazed me was the fact that not only they load fast (faster than OWB at the time it worked fine) but interactivity must be 3 orders of magnitude better, they are very responsive in TW.
Maybe on faster processors this difference isn't felt that much, on the 440EP however it becomes an achievement, specially when the Browser behaving like this is the one that was claimed to be dead slow for months.

I don't know how to express this, but I believe people should be amazed when speed turns out way way better than expected (and on alpha material...)

Last edited by DAX on 10-Jun-2010 at 05:42 PM.
Last edited by DAX on 10-Jun-2010 at 05:41 PM.


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Fab 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 18:41:45
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@DAX

That shadow makes the site infinitely slower. But if you don't believe me, check by yourself how this simple example makes your OWB build crawl already (and it has more impact in a full-blown site):
https://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=56870

Then about loading times and lags, it's mostly because of OWB OS4 network implementation. But it could be programmed to be made totally asynchronous and you wouldn't see freezes due to synchronous network access then.

Last edited by Fab on 10-Jun-2010 at 07:47 PM.

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DAX 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 19:00:11
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

Don't get me wrong I believe you 100%, what I meant is that if they decide to leave out the shadow again, TW would still be way faster (yes this shadow makes the site unusable at the moment, but when there was no shadow, OWB was still much slower, specially in the interaction/responsiveness department),
Anyway, I look forward to updates for both...


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Develin 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 19:07:47
#79 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2006
Posts: 439
From: Karlstad, Sweden

@meet.mrnrg

JAmiga has been available for over 5 years as itix said.
* Go to the orginal site - www.jamiga.org
* Press download
* You get the link to this place : http://sourceforge.net/projects/jamiga/files/

Voila, binaries for 3.x and MorphOS dated 2005-05-19

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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Timberwolf Alpha 1 released
Posted on 10-Jun-2010 20:50:24
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 964
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

Great achievement, thank you! Too bad my SAM is some miles from me currently, i can't test it

@Itix & Develin
There was a small update for OS4.1 on a forked JAmiga, maybe you missed this news


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