@gary_c

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Quote: Here you list some reasons why AOS4 would be good for the PPC-oriented efforts of Mr. Buck (and why he would want AOS4)... ... and here you say that AOS4 is not worth the effort. Just so there is no confusion about what might seem to be a contradiction, my first comments were possible reasons why bbrv might think having the Amiga platform onboard at power.org would be good. Actually this is based on things they did tell me. The second comments were my personal opinion.

And here's another(*) cut-out magic for us to see
(*)No, I'm not implying you did it already with me in this thread.

Let's look at the original post (#238), which starts with the quote of a question I had asked BBRV (and which remained unanswered):

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Quote: - do you want AOS4? I'm not bbrv of course, but this is my opinion (and I hope the bbrv reply is in those questions we submitted a while ago). My impression is that any OS/user base still active with PPC is an asset for the architecture overall. Genesi is, after all, a PowerPC hardware/firmware provider and, let's face it, the platform has seen brighter days. In this context, it makes sense to get even rather small subsets like PPC Amiga on board for possible collective benefit. Part of the benefit would be more enthusiasm and perception of activity for the Power/PowerPC platform. Part might be actual increased sales for Genesi from this market, but I think that's secondary.

You explicitly introduce the reasoning with "this is my opinion" and "My impression is", and at some point you say that "it makes sense", which means that you find reasonable what you are talking about.

Then, you add:
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I suspect there is also something personal about bbrv's quest related to AmigaOS. Personally, I can't see how it would be worth the effort. Like Seehund said, I really hope this is something bbrv are doing in their spare time after the real business has been done.

Which, apart from beginning with one more motivation why, in your opinion ("I suspect"), BBRV would try to get AOS4, contains the statement where you declare an opinion totally opposite to what written above.
It does *seem* a contradiction. It *is*.

Besides that, although it's always been crystal clear that BBRV and Genesi were interested in AOS4, the passage "Actually this is based on things they did tell me." should be quite interesting for the people around here that still seem to think that BBRV is hanging around here just for the fun of it.

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Ideally, it makes sense for the parties involved with AmigaOS4 -- a PowerPC OS -- to participate in the PowerPC industry group. In general, companies join industry associations because they and the association both benefit by working together. But in this case, with people so fragmented and companies (especially Amiga, Inc.) apparently not functioning in a normal way, I wonder if it's possible or even worth the effort to try building bridges.

This is a different issue altogheter. I'm glad you introduced this with "ideally": to have a better idea of what would be better one should have a full view of the whole state of everything, and nobody here has it.
Besides that, as I've explained already (so, please, if you want answer to this do it where I have already expressed my thoughts), partnering with Mr Buck is not a wise business decision.

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Some people here have said things like why bother joining power.org, we just want to be independent. I think this illustrates the same narrow vision that the hardware-making groups might have if they think they can survive as a business by selling only to AmigaOS users. This is one thing that Alan Redhouse did understand: it's not possible to profitably manufacture motherboards/systems for such a small market only. And I think once it is realized that other markets need to be targetted, it makes sense to gain credibility and build bridges to those markets such as through power.org.

I can't see why it is either Power.org or nothing. Who said that Power.org is the only way out? - no, you did not explicitly say this, but you seem to join the voices that these days sing the refrain "Power.org or doom" which so nicely accompanies the evergreen "Pegasos or doom" line. That's a narrow vision as well. BBRV & al want to create a movement around Power.org? Well, that's fine and nobody has anything against that. What I cannot stand is the advocates that push it as the only winning way for AOS - and the reason behind is that they want AOS, which is why, in first place, BB came here and made the first post of this thread. He wants to divide & conquer. Wants the community and use the community itself to reach AOS, given that the he cannot reach it through the normal channels.

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Quote: Bad or good, pretty or ugly, like it or not, there *are* rules. Of course, but complaining about rules we think are wrong is human nature. It really is the right thing to do IMHO.

Sure, you and anybody else is free to do so. But that should not end up in a neverending, stale, boring, repetitive output of anger, frustration, attacks, insults because there is a (not so) hidden agenda (namely, forcing the community, Hyperion and AInc) or even just envy and/or desire.
It is not uncommon the hear the community built by BB say repeatedly that they are doing so well and are so happy without AOS: fine, enjoy, have fun and please let AOS in peace. It is extremely irritating seeing the community (which I am part of) used and abused.
(Of course, I'm *not* referring to those that openly and moderately say that they'd like to have AOS on their Pegasos as well - I fully understand that the situation is not pleasant.)

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Quote: If somebody does not like them, then the only way to try to change them is getting privately and professionally in touch with AInc and proposing them a valid alternative. None of us knows what has already happened in the background.

In fact, I've never, ever, said I know. On the contrary, I have explicitly said that I don't know about the specific facts and even directly asked BBRV about it (post #239, which is precisely the first one of mine that you replied to).

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I assume Genesi has already communicated with Amiga, Inc. (or tried to) about this. It is easy to see from their many other business dealings that Genesi is not averse to going through proper channels.

I agree that this could be a correct assumption and I totally agree that BBRV/Genesi are indeed capable of doing business the proper way. This means once they had been told "No, thanks", they could have just behaved like true gentlemen (as they have proved to be capable of) and at most keep on trying the proper way as hard as possible; once reached the limits, they should have just let it rest. For sure...

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I don't know if bbrv going direct to the users here is a result of attempted communication with Amiga, Inc. or in parallel to that or what.

... "directing the users", exploiting the weaknesses of the other parties is not justified by the denial: nothing in this world says that BBRV/Genesi/whoever else *must* have AOS4 on the basis of a divine right. They cannot have it. They should learn to live with it.
(More below.)

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I hope the answer will come out in the Q&A session ahead.

And what would that change? I'm rather tired of repeating myself, but here it is definitely suitable to report in its entirety the text which the last quote you reported above was part of:
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For sure, exploiting the weaknesses of the community, of the market, of Hyperion, you name it, the way BB has been doing over and over again is not the right way and is unacceptable. This, along with personal insults, sly lawsuits, open attacks and whatever has been publically witnessed in these last years (and even before... I've heard negative comments about BB since the VisCorp times), rules BB out as a reliable business partner. No wonder if AInc refused to partner with him. They can't be blamed even if BB had commercially valid proposals. BB is only reaping what he sowed - and he keeps on sowing bad seeds.

Whatever is the answer to "Did BB try to get the license the proper way", the blame cannot be thrown on AInc. - but we're spinning in circles... just again consider that that first post of mine you replied to contained the question to BBRV: "Did you try to get the license?", which, no wonder, remained unanswered.

saimo

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