@opi

Quote:

opi wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: I suspect if they were so large I would not have gotten a personal email from Bill when my EFIKA order accidently went out late, or a personal email from him on an update now, months later after the cases became available on when my case order is going out. I think that's BBRV style. They like to deal with most of events by themself. It may seems crazy but I a sure you that this is very positive thing for developers involved. I can do stuff with other Genesi people but BBRV is always e-mail/call/SMS away if I'd like to ask a question.

Hello opi,

My main point here is this is not a battle over Mac OS X or anything. There are simply not millions at stake. Fighting over this in court is sheer madness.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback et al

Your last statement is absolutely the situation. This has been true for a long time. Having said that, there is possibility for a niche retro market. The A1200 ESCOM produced had a cost of goods at roughly $32. That is what a piece of hardware needs to cost to turn this _possibility_ into a business. We were selling A1200's in the ESCOM Bankruptcy for $300+. ESCOM had been asking more. You could not even ask for half of that today. The world has changed.

As for the Poll, we picked Hyperion. We will explain why (eventhough they stayed focused on the answer to Amiga last weekend when we were in Brussels). We did meet with other interested parties. There is hope.

Before we explain why, here is *some* of the information we have already parked with our Attorney. We submit as evidence the YouTube videos mentioned on other threads. The assumptions are that a) Amiga DE runs on an OS, including AmigaOS 4.0, and, b) DE will be integrated into AmigaOS 4.0 (4.X, etc.) to provide the foundation for AmigaOS 5.0. These statements are made by Bill McEwen and in the video. Against this we compare the License Agreement that has been upheld by Court Order twice already (it is the same Judge again by the way). Consulting the original License Agreement (these are not items up for discussion - they are factual), we see the following:

1. DE *is* represented as an "Operating System" (questions? - please read the Agreement - thanks!)

2. "Substantially" everything is represented to be owned by Amiga Inc. (not licensed from Tao Group)

3. "Affiliate" means Genesi USA Inc. is included

4. Future products are included (PegasosPPC/ODW, EFIKA/Open Client & ...)

5. "Enhancements" (means changes or improvements from ANY source), "Updates" AND "UPGRADES" to the _Amiga DE Operating System_ which includes OS4...

With all that in mind (...and coming to the Hyperion part):

Objective #1 - Legal OS4 port to the PegasosPPC/ODW

The PegasosPPC schematics are online for the OS4 port as is the Firmware/HAL documentation. This is an easy revenue opportunity/trial effort.

Objective #2 - Achieve an UPGRADE/Enhancement to provide a fully functional OS *and* applications

This is for what is represented in the Agreement to be more than an OS - "including but not limited to a Java enabled web browser, MP3 player, email client..." We can see to that.

Objective #3 - Gain the flexibility to support the market introduction of Amiga DE Operating System, etc.

This is achieved through the indemnity offered by the Agreement to our resellers and distributors -- no lawsuits against our licensees given the licensed software does not include any software that is not owned, licensed or controlled by Amiga (10.2). Remember, this *is* what Amiga represented.

We will start there, but the rest can follow in quick succession. We will certainly seek to name Hyperion as the ESCROW AGENT for the source code. We should not have any trouble sub-licensing them either. They can be a Reseller. Don't like that? OK, how about ACube or, or...!?

It will be a matter of details. BTW, you will have your case soon. The first XGI graphic card brackets were the hold-up:



@opi - you are correct!

Raquel and Bill
Evolution of the Species

_________________
genesi

@bbrv

"http://www.mindrelease.net/amiga-thendic/show_case_doc_53,16781,0,MAGIC,0,1.pdf"

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@herewegoagain

Quote:

It doesn't matter what the community thinks Amiga's motives would have been to buy the code back. Point is that we do not know that Amiga wouldn't have moved foward with the platform because Hyperion has held onto the code even after Amiga paid them for it. Period. Logic has nothing to do with it. There was a contract and it wasn't adhered to. There is nothing to apply logic toward

We do not know what would have happened if AInc had actually licensed some hardware either. I don't see how you can know if Hyperion would have refused to port OS4 to the licensed hardware.

If Ainc had licensed hardware, and Hyprion refused to port, then Hyperion would be with holding the code, but if they ported to said licensed hardware, no with holding of the code took place.

As far as sub-contractors being used to write the code, and owning their own IP, as stated in the contract, maybe AInc should have 'read' the contact clearer.

the world is not black & white, or right & wrong, otherwise we wouldn't need lawyers and laws, I would suggest everbody waits for Hyperions defense before jumping to all these suppostions and conclusions.

_________________
Peter Swallow.
A1XEG3-800 [IBM 750FX PowerPC], running OS4.1FE, using ac97 onboard sound.

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't."

@herewegoagain

Quote:

or is it because of the legal quagmire they have been held up in with Hyperion for the past several years?

What kind of management ends up in a quagmire for YEARS? Huge corporations, yes, I can believe it because I've seen it, its complicated etc like Enron.

This relatively small in comparison, yet vital, issue? Years? This, "Johnny stole my Boing ball- Boo Hoo!" approach doesn't get sympathy from me at all. I find it weak.

If this Ack/Amiga deal falls through....

_________________
If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote: @alx hi alx, just want to know who the users' trust. EDIT: changed "love" in "trust"

Don't trust anyone, you can't be let down that way, and keep your friends close, and your enemies closer!

_________________
Dark Lord Design Wicked Solutions For Damned Problems

@AmigaBlitter

Another reason not to trust Amiga Inc lies.

Quote:

On Saturday, 3rd November 2001, Amiga Active magazine - www.amigactive.com will be sponsoring the World of Amiga South East Show, to be held in Brentwood, Essex, UK. Exhibitors already confirmed, are as follows.. * Amiga Active * Eyetech * Fore-matt Home Computing * 100% Amiga * Analogic * Blittersoft * Kicksoft ...with more to follow. We are also very proud to announce that Amiga CTO, Fleecy Moss will be in attendance to show the latest AmigaOS on the latest hardware. If that isn't enough, this could be your first opportunity anywhere in the world to see and even buy the AmigaOne and OS 4.0.

http://web.archive.org/web/20011125074803/www.amiga.com/events/

@debrun

Quote:

If this Ack/Amiga deal falls through....

"If" sound overly optimistic, almost sounds like you are implying that the ACK hardware might actually be released.

@bbrv

I rather suspect you've got the matter backwards here. When it says that Amiga DE (that is, AmigaAnywhere) is expected to run on OS4, that does not mean that DE will contain and comprise OS4. It's more like that OS4 will contain DE/AA. DE is primarily a runtime engine for running some Amiga-branded programs. Mostly games. It would be like claiming that, if you signed a contract with Microsoft that said you would get a port of .NET for your platform... then since .NET is something that runs on top of and from inside of Windows XP, that that means that you could claim that you own Windows XP, or that they could require Microsoft give you a version of Windows that runs on your platform.

To put it another way, if OS4 were a cargo container, DE would be one of the pieces of cargo placed inside it, but placing this piece of cargo inside it would not turn the cargo container itself into DE. The fact that OS5 is supposed to be a descendant of OS4 and DE does not mean that you can claim you have the right, for free, to get OS4 simply because you had a contract that said you had the rights to DE. It might mean you would get the rights to OS5, since OS5 might could be termed DE version 2.0.

_________________
"I love peacenicks, they're so easy to conquer." --Ivan J Ironfist, the Dictator

@Swoop

Quote:

We do not know what would have happened if AInc had actually licensed some hardware either. I don't see how you can know if Hyperion would have refused to port OS4 to the licensed hardware. If Ainc had licensed hardware, and Hyprion refused to port, then Hyperion would be with holding the code, but if they ported to said licensed hardware, no with holding of the code took place.

I can only guess that you haven't read the contract or just haven't been paying attention, or just simply want to do like Hyperion and make your own rules based upon what you want. It would not be up to Hyperion to port anything. Amiga paid the buy back for the OS and source code to continue development in house.

Quote:

As far as sub-contractors being used to write the code, and owning their own IP, as stated in the contract, maybe AInc should have 'read' the contact clearer. the world is not black & white, or right & wrong, otherwise we wouldn't need lawyers and laws, I would suggest everbody waits for Hyperions defense before jumping to all these suppostions and conclusions.

Well it wouldn't take Einstein to realize that Amiga could not continue to develop the OS in house if they didn't get the source code for the kernel. I think what Hyperion have done is below dirty, period. That's my opinion whether anyone likes it or not. So think of me what you want, or just flame away. Doesn't make any difference to me.

@debrun

Quote:

debrun wrote: @herewegoagain Quote: or is it because of the legal quagmire they have been held up in with Hyperion for the past several years? What kind of management ends up in a quagmire for YEARS? Huge corporations, yes, I can believe it because I've seen it, its complicated etc like Enron. This relatively small in comparison, yet vital, issue? Years? This, "Johnny stole my Boing ball- Boo Hoo!" approach doesn't get sympathy from me at all. I find it weak. If this Ack/Amiga deal falls through....

Well, on that I agree to a point. They should have filed the law suit against Hyperion a couple of years ago.

How disappointing is it to see no one here taking Hyperion's side. Just because you get access to old source doesn't make creating an OS like OS4 any easier. Shame on you folks for taking sides and talking about things with all the facts not in evidence. Let's not convict anyone here in the court of public opinion. We all know this is kinda talk is the downfall of this community and has been for years. The courts are here for a reason let them work it out there..

@DonnieA2

The court of public opinion is a good thing. The verdict depends on the mob. The mob depends on people. People post. Forums are good. Things are written. Opinions can be thoughtfully considered. Actions can be judged over time. People evolve...

@NomadOfNorad

Quote:

It might mean you would get the rights to OS5, since OS5 might could be termed DE version 2.0.

Whew. For a minute, we thought you missed the whole point! Got it now Spectre660? We sure did have to wait a while for it all to come together, but it did - at least on paper! We will see to the rest as defined in the Agreement.

R&B

_________________
genesi

@DonnieA2

WTF??? Have you looked at the poll at the top? And why shame on us for not supporting Hyperion? Why not shame on us for not supporting the one who has so far presented evidence showing how Hyperion has broken the contract time and again, even after payment was made to them for the contract that THEY SIGNED? But after all it's just Amiga Inc. They deserve to be screwed over. I guess I forgot that little bit.

@amigaworld.net

One last thought before we sign off for the day...

Debate is good because it allows more people to buy into the outcome.

Have a nice weekend! It would be great if "Amiga" became big again. Adoption is a function of access.

R&B

_________________
genesi

@bbrv

Quote:

Have a nice weekend! It would be great if "Amiga" became big again.

Well not too big. Want to stay under the radar enough so we don't have to worry about viruses & spyware.

Just out of courosity, we know how much Amiga Inc. paid Hyperion to port AmigaOS4, but how much was paid to "buy" (or whatever it's called...license? what I can only assume is a guaranteed, as I don't know the whole story, port of Amiga DE for life by Amiga Inc. from the sounds of it.) ie DE-> OS4 -> OS5. (as this thread has turned into a sort of what's it worth kinda thing here)

The whole thing is confusing to me anyway. Is that what AmigaInc. agreed to do, port every version of Amiga DE forever? Some strange contracts come out of Amiga land anyway at least I just never really got it is all, so if there was some real clarification that would help me. Thanks

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A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
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Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@A3000T

Quote:

A3000T wrote: @AmigaBlitter Hyperion brought us OS4. They worked hard while Amiga Inc did nothing to improve the situation the Amiga platform is in. In fact, they (Amiga Inc.) rarely even mentioned the operating system they claim to own untill about two weeks ago when they sued Hyperion. Kind regards, Dennis

They mentioned publicly that they had bought back the OS before the lawsuit. At that time someone affiliated somehow with Hyperion said that it wasn't true and the money Amiga Inc gave them was for something else. We now know that the money was unmistakably for the buyback, and the statement about the money being for something else, was "wrong" (being very kind in choice of words here.)

If Hyperion are in the wrong on this, then they did nothing to improve the situation either.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@bbrv

Quote:

@NomadOfNorad Quote: It might mean you would get the rights to OS5, since OS5 might could be termed DE version 2.0. Whew. For a minute, we thought you missed the whole point! Got it now Spectre660? We sure did have to wait a while for it all to come together, but it did - at least on paper! We will see to the rest as defined in the Agreement.

So in essence your argument is chronological - you signed an agreement for the Amiga DE including future upgrades, and you were expecting to get all that future DE/OS stuff "as advertised". Now there is OS4, and it fits into that "as advertised" category. Am I getting closer?

@herewegoagain

Quote:

Well, on that I agree to a point. They should have filed the law suit against Hyperion a couple of years ago.

I just wish they'd hurry the heck up and quit FOOLING around! Both of 'em! Grrrrr !

-Cheers

_________________
If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill

@dirigent

It is more than as advertised; it is as licensed.

@AmigaHeretic

$4.50/unit and hopefully we will be able to send that to an Escrow Account established by the Judge for the benefit of creditors.

Best regards,
R&B

_________________
genesi