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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  shocking OS4 news from Rogue
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PosterThread
ChrisH 
shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 14-Aug-2007 22:53:08
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6505
From: Unknown

Rogue wrote this Quote:
Quote:
jahc wrote:

If this plan goes ahead, does that mean current OS4 apps will run under a sandbox with the older kernel, and that the newer OS4.x apps will have enhanced features, and maybe a better form of memory protection?

I wouldn't call it a sandbox, rather a virtual environment. The old system will run in its own address space as a separate task. It's not like a UAE or anything like that. It might or might not be able to become aware of the outside world, we still need to clear up the details.

To which I have to say I am *stunned*. Never mind that this is very close to how MOS was designed, he's basically saying that OS4 (as it exists now) is a dead-end design, that will be relegated to a sand-box. It means they've given-up on the core OS4 idea of extending AmigaOS in a compatible way, and future changes will be highly incompatible. They might as well call it OS5...

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billt 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 14-Aug-2007 22:58:07
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 2830
From: Maryland, USA

@ChrisH

Quote:
he's basically saying that OS4 (as it exists now) is a dead-end design, that will be relegated to a sand-box. It means they've given-up on the core OS4 idea of extending AmigaOS in a compatible way, and future changes will be highly incompatible.


I don't think there's enough quotes here for us to see to make those conclusions. We need some more context to wrap around what is quoted, and more relevant information before I can consider to agree with your assessment.

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Samwel 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 14-Aug-2007 23:03:49
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3395
From: Sweden

@ChrisH

Are you for real??? Why *stunned*?

If we want modern features like support for multiple processors and memory
protection then plenty has to change. I thought everyone understood this?

I even remember Rogue stating as much before here on AW. A bit more subtle
than this statement but the same meaning.

Do you want to have OS3 features forever? Don't you want AmigaOS to evolve
to something better?

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pixie 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 14-Aug-2007 23:06:41
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2606
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Samwel

Quote:
Do you want to have OS3 features forever? Don't you want AmigaOS to evolve

Hard one... I would want him evolving, but I would want him to remain AmigaOS. If both can be attained all fine and dandy, if not I've got lot's of other windows to pick from...

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adiaux 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 0:13:06
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

(First, I also wrote a reply to you here.)

It's quite hilarious to see how Hyperion is actually "inventing" MorphOS in 2007, after all they said and all they did against MorphOS in general and this feature in particular. What can one say? Now they are copying a core idea of MorphOS they have been mocking for so long. Well, I can't say I'm surprised, not anymore.

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adiaux 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 0:16:17
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@Samwel

Quote:
Do you want to have OS3 features forever? Don't you want AmigaOS to evolve

Hard one... I would want him evolving, but I would want him to remain AmigaOS. If both can be attained all fine and dandy


Sir, it seems to me that it's MorphOS you want! "Teh reel thing!!11!1" instead of the clone!

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jorkany 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 0:22:38
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 919
From: Space Coast

@Samwel
Quote:
If we want modern features like support for multiple processors and memory
protection then plenty has to change. I thought everyone understood this?

Apparently not, because why spend six years messing around with OS4? Why not just go right to the real OS? I think that's the "shocking" part, at least for some.

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stew 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 0:24:01
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2003
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@Samwel

Quote:
Are you for real??? Why *stunned*?


For one thing that is certainly far outside the original license.

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number6 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 0:25:42
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 8715
From: In the village

@all

Discussion and [poll] from 2005

Lots of comments in the thread from developers, beta testers, engineers.
Interesting stuff for those who missed it.

#6

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Legion 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 0:28:02
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Apr-2003
Posts: 820
From: Fargo, ND, USA

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
after all they said and all they did against MorphOS in general


You really need to substantiate... no, wait. Nevermind. I no longer have the patience for this sort of thing. I'll simply whack the abuse button instead.

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...wait... what?

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Hans 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 0:43:43
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4517
From: New Zealand

@ChrisH

The differences between the new OS and old one don't have to be as drastic as people think. I have no idea how they plan to implement this, but it doesn't have to be like MacOS. MacOS X is essentially a whole new OS (a Mach kernel + BSD code) with a compatibility layer for old software. Amiga OS 4.x could still use essentially the same API, but just have more restrictions.

The key problems holding the current OS back that I can think of are:
- Programs are allowed to read the OS structures directly
- For some things you have to look in the OS structures as no accessor functions are available
- The message passing method assumes that all memory is accessible to both tasks
- Forbid()/Permit() is a real performance killer on multi-processor machines, and not a nice API in general

These problems could all be fixed with relatively minor changes to the Amiga OS API. However, if you fix any of the above issues, many old programs won't work anymore. Putting the old programs in a virtual machine of some sort will allow the rest of the system to move ahead and allow old programs to run.

Hans

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A500 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 1:17:45
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Posts: 343
From: Ontario, Canada

I will be very happy should OS4.0 actually be available. There are a few of you fortunate enough to have the OS. For the rest of us, its vapourware and it is getting rather humid in here.
It still stuns me why Amiga Inc is in business with so little income or products.

Three cheers to the eventual release of OS4.0 to the rest of us and three cheers to developing the OS into the future.

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Toaks 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 1:23:52
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 8011
From: amigaguru.com

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
@ChrisH

(First, I also wrote a reply to you here.)

It's quite hilarious to see how Hyperion is actually "inventing" MorphOS in 2007, after all they said and all they did against MorphOS in general and this feature in particular. What can one say? Now they are copying a core idea of MorphOS they have been mocking for so long. Well, I can't say I'm surprised, not anymore.


So OS4.x will become morphos now? , i simply cannot follow you now....

Oh, so morphos is AmigaOS with 1 extra feature now? , i bet the morphos core team would love to have seen your comment, ah yeah...i am not suprised anymore either.

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samface 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 1:40:52
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
@ChrisH

(First, I also wrote a reply to you here.)

It's quite hilarious to see how Hyperion is actually "inventing" MorphOS in 2007, after all they said and all they did against MorphOS in general and this feature in particular. What can one say? Now they are copying a core idea of MorphOS they have been mocking for so long. Well, I can't say I'm surprised, not anymore.


Excuse me but... Wasn't it *exactly* the other way around? I remember back when the plans for AmigaOS4.x up to AmigaOS5 was announced by Amiga Inc. and when I had to explain the AmigaOS4 sandbox for AmigaOS5 idea to certain MorphOS supporters who mocked it without realizing that the so called "A-Box" in MorphOS was exactly the same thing. Oh well...

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minator 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 1:42:03
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 985
From: Cambridge

Quote:
he's basically saying that OS4 (as it exists now) is a dead-end design, that will be relegated to a sand-box.


It's been a dead end OS design since desktop OSs started getting memory protection, that's was well over 10 years ago now.

Quote:
It's quite hilarious to see how Hyperion is actually "inventing" MorphOS in 2007


Don't you mean "inventing" OS X.


Anyway, I don't see what all the fuss is about, this change has been a long time coming, and I don't believe this is the the first it's been talked about, didn't they same something like this at AmiWest a few years back?

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Darth_X 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 1:50:34
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2003
Posts: 2974
From: Vancouver Island, Canada

Quote:

samface wrote:

Excuse me but... Wasn't it *exactly* the other way around? I remember back when the plans for AmigaOS4.x up to AmigaOS5 was announced by Amiga Inc. and when I had to explain the AmigaOS4 sandbox for AmigaOS5 idea to certain MorphOS supporters who mocked it without realizing that the so called "A-Box" in MorphOS was exactly the same thing. Oh well...


Attention AmigaWorld moderators and readers: What Samface is alleging here is completely FALSE and cannot back up what he says with evidence.

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debrun 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 1:57:42
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2006
Posts: 347
From: New York

@ChrisH

You're right! All those AmigaOS's were all MorphOS's being copied ALL ALONG! Hyperion stole the Morph team's ideas and well heck, you might as well say it took 6 years of AOS development because Hyperion had to reverse engineer everything MorphOS did.

So... EVERYONE, AmigaOS 4 and its future developments are all pirated ideas from the genius of the Morph team. Everyone line up behind MorphOS! Its the reall AmigaOS and they did ALL their OWN work.

Yawn....

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Mr_DBUG 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 2:26:14
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2005
Posts: 169
From: South of Oslo

@ChrisH

Im happy as long as their is ANY plan and ANY AMIGAOS development continues ..

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ChrisH 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 2:46:39
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6505
From: Unknown

@Samwel, etc
I'm not stunned because this wasn't inevitable, because many said it was (just ask Ralph or Bernie...), but rather: I am stunned because the whole *design* of OS4 so far has been aimed at maintaining compatibility withOUT using a sand-box. It was also a key differentiator between OS4 & MOS, in the stupid red vs blue war.

If you had said 1-2 years ago that OS4 would use a sand-box, you would have been lynched. This is a COMPLETE turn-around in the design philosophy. Just the fact that a sandbox was not planned until OS5 should show you how big a change this is.

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Don't forget the official support forum for AmigaOS4!

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samface 
Re: shocking OS4 news from Rogue
Posted on 15-Aug-2007 3:01:22
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Darth_X

First of all, I didn't claim to know anything *as a matter of fact* in that post. As should've been clear by the way I expressed myself, it was about how I remembered a certain scenario of events. That's about as subjective as it gets and really cannot be proven "wrong" to begin with. Even if I would have incorrect memories, they are still my memories.

Secondly, even if you insist that my post consisted of false claims, evidence that the AmigaOS4 sandbox was a part of the original development plans for the next generation AmigaOS can be found here:

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/amigaosdev1.html

Quote:
AmigaOS4 sandbox - Similar to the MacOS X approach to previous MacOS software.


As for the claim that Hyperion mocked the idea of a "sandbox", don't try to shift the burden of proof on to me. Takemehomegrandma made that claim and it's up to him to prove it.

The above makes YOUR post completely false on three counts. Would you like to announce this to the world in bold text too?

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