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PosterThread
ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Aug-2019 21:36:55
#1921 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

@kolla

They began a collaboration, but there was a disagreement between Gunnar and the programmer, so he dismissed his collaboration.

Sad thing, Gunnar is no good at alla at communication and emphatic skills

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 3:49:33
#1922 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Well, the Apollo projects is to a degree glorifying those flaws - the operating system or user software is no longer in control of the "hardware".
Graphics.library needs to be replaced anyway. It only supports planar modes and barely acknowledges the existence of the Copper when it is present. A corkscrew wraparound scroller can't even be done within its constraints. MrgCop() needs to die a thousand deaths.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 5:58:20
#1923 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ErikBauer

Quote:

They began a collaboration, but there was a disagreement between Gunnar and the programmer, so he dismissed his collaboration.

So your comment... "they're working to adapt C++ compiler" was really about bebbo's gcc effort?

Quote:
Sad thing, Gunnar is no good at alla at communication and emphatic skills
Understatement. And flawed comments like yours about ongoing work to adapt "C++ compilers" doesn't really help in any way either.

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 6:51:13
#1924 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

@kolla

The forum thread is still going on and, by reading it seems they're still working on the project, at least they are doing brainstorming.

Plus, it seems Bebbo is somewhat still working on the project.

So yes, it is WIP

Last edited by ErikBauer on 25-Aug-2019 at 06:57 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 8:38:10
#1925 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 126
From: Unknown

@ErikBauer

Quote:
your claims are based on the fact that Vampire still IS WIP and thus there are no documentation and no dedicated compilers yet.


So your claims are based on what Vampire will be in future?
The problem is it may be really far away future.
In 2008 natami team state that their wonderfull natami will be faster than 600 MHz G4, 3D graphics on natami will be faster than Amiga NG AGP solutions almost as fast as PS3, Workbench will run on natami faster than on fastest PC froim 2008.
Eleven years passed and natami/apollo/vampire team has faster 060 with dumb framebuffer.
It is better to take vampire as it is and not rely on what it may be in future.

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 8:59:15
#1926 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

So your claims are based on what Vampire will be in future?


Which claims, sir?
Can you please quote them there, so we can have a proper discussion?


Quote:

The problem is it may be really far away future.

Sadly yes, I have to agree. But I tend to be patient. Surely I'm not waiting for Vampire to be my main gaming device.

Quote:

In 2008 natami team state that their wonderfull natami will be faster than 600 MHz G4, 3D graphics on natami will be faster than Amiga NG AGP solutions almost as fast as PS3, Workbench will run on natami faster than on fastest PC froim 2008.

I have to correct you there: I followed Natami forums very strictly by reading almost every single post at the time and by any means NOWHERE the team stated Natami would have been that fast. I wonder if you ever red that forum.
The aim and expectations always were simething between PS1 and PS2 computing power without ever talking about 3D coprocessor.
Again, can you provide any proof of your claim?


Quote:

Eleven years passed and natami/apollo/vampire team has faster 060 with dumb framebuffer.
It is better to take vampire as it is and not rely on what it may be in future.


And this I'm doing: I'm taking as it is now: a WIP project. I'm not going to preordeer it or to buy it unless it will phisically have all the things they are telling in the forums, for sure.
But at the same time I'm mature enough not to shot fire on every occassion against them

By the way, mr. ppcamiga1, I have addressed quite a number of your claims and quotes, often asking for proofs and explanations, but I can see you're not anwering. Can I know why?


Last edited by ErikBauer on 25-Aug-2019 at 09:00 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 9:16:22
#1927 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2175
From: Unknown

@ErikBauer

Quote:


I have to correct you there: I followed Natami forums very strictly by reading almost every single post at the time and by any means NOWHERE the team stated Natami would have been that fast. I wonder if you ever red that forum.


Not sure what was discussed on the Natami forum or where that G4/AGP claim comes from, but...

At the time Biggun did a lot of trolling on morphzone claiming that Natami would run a certain game (194x AFAIR) faster than an Efika+Radeon.

That claim was based on the game running in a special 080 binary directly hitting SAGA (both pretty much vaporware at that time) against a generic 68k binary using an unoptimized SDL backend.

So yeah, I do take any benchmarks coming out of that corner with 3 truckloads of salt

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megol 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 10:25:34
#1928 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 316
From: Unknown

@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote:
@megol

I appreciate criticism, when it is costructive and respectful.
Here, what I can read, is mostly uncostructive, unmoderated, irrespectful whining.
It's not just about this Apollo thread, the whole forum is not the place it used to be years ago.

Well that's all true. The positive is that the unrealistic fanatics of whatever "team" they choose to support have either calmed, migrated or stopped following anything Amiga related; the negative is that there's fewer things happening and people want to have opinions.

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 10:27:43
#1929 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

@Kronos

Now that you mention it, I remember Gunnar talking about that game, even showing screenshots (Maybe even videos?) of it.
I recall initally was designed as a proof of concept, some sort of interactive demo to show Vampire capabilities.

Here it is: running with AMMX optimizations on Vampire:
194x Deluxe using AMMX

I guess this is what you were talking about.

I've never red Morphzone forums, as I'm not a PPC owner, nor I'm interested in an Aone or Morphos machine, but are you sure Gunnar was willingly trolling?
I mean: he often makes bold claims and clearly does not appreciate PPC that much (he does not even care to hide his toughts about PPC technology, we all know that) but I've never seen him trolling anywhere, not telling it isn't true, but that sounds just strange to me.

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umisef 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 13:07:29
#1930 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1672
From: Melbourne, Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
In 2008 natami team state that their wonderfull natami will be faster than 600 MHz G4,


No, that wasn't the Natami team. That was Gunnar. Sure, Gunnar believed that he was part of the team, or that he was the team. But in reality, Natami was Thomas' baby, and Thomas very clearly wasn't particularly interested in what Gunnar was doing, and much less again in what Gunnar was saying.

Alas, Thomas was quietly working, and Gunnar was loudly advocating. So the public perception of Natami was shaped by Gunnar's fantasies, rather than by Thomas' pragmatic realism, more's the pity.

Last edited by umisef on 25-Aug-2019 at 01:08 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Aug-2019 20:47:43
#1931 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 126
From: Unknown

@ErikBauer

Quote:
I have to correct you there: I followed Natami forums very strictly by reading almost every single post at the time and by any means NOWHERE the team stated Natami would have been that fast. I wonder if you ever red that forum.


Natami website is still in web archive so don't lie.

"With SuperAGA and the N68070 softcore, the Amiga Workbench will run on Natami many times faster than it currently does on WinUAE using a fast PC. "

"Can you tell me something about the SuperAGA blitter
SuperAGA blitter
100+ FPS with most games with effects
Screen redraw x10+ per frame
Virtually unlimited playfields in realtime
Opaque, semi-transparent or translucent playfields / overlay
Free bob scale, resize and rotate
ColorKey support
Alpha blending, translucent shadows, semi translucent fire or explosions"

threads on natami from 2009 are still available on aw.net. Use google.

Quote:

The aim and expectations always were simething between PS1 and PS2 computing power without ever talking about 3D coprocessor.


You have problem with your memory. You mistake numbers. It was PS3 then gvb was convicted that it is not possible so change to P2.

Quote:

And this I'm doing: I'm taking as it is now: a WIP project. I'm not going to preordeer it or to buy it unless it will phisically have all the things they are telling in the forums, for sure.


I have vampire in my a500. You not.

Quote:

But at the same time I'm mature enough not to shot fire on every occassion against them


I correct natami/apollo/vampire comunism style propaganda of success crap.
I will still do it.



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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 5:29:41
#1932 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ErikBauer

Quote:

The forum thread is still going on and, by reading it seems they're still working on the project, at least they are doing brainstorming.


What's going on is poking around in gcc.

Quote:
Plus, it seems Bebbo is somewhat still working on the project.


Which is his project - improving gcc6 for 68k in general, not for AC68080 specifically, and not so much in collaboration with "the team.

Quote:
So yes, it is WIP


But you wrote "collaboration"' and you wrote "C++".

If I recall correctly, g++ (which is gcc's C++ "interpreter") translates to C, which then is compiled with gcc, but it's still a long stretch to say "they are working on C++ compiler". Why not just stick to what's the truth instead of making rather exaggerated claims?

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 8:54:12
#1933 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5540
From: Unknown

@Kronos

So the non-existing software on MorphOS potentially runs faster than on Vampire? ;)

to put some salt in the wound too ;)

I do not understand the discussions... yes Gunnar sometimes is overenthusiastic but obviously the vampires (and certainly the standalones) are covering a need otherwise nobody would buy them. And most owners are happy with it obviously. Are vampires beating modern PCs? Of course not. They are sophisticated retro hardware, a kind of what would have been possible if 68k processors would have been further developed and Commodore would have survived.

And in my view vampires because based on 68k have the advantage of a relative big software base (f.e. lots of compilers). There is not much development of new 68k software right now (except games) but development has stopped on all platforms right now. MorphOS is of course faster running on a G4 or G5 but people use a computer because of software and there is not much activity on MorphOS right now. Yes PPC hardware is faster than anything based on FPGA but what software will be written that use that? Perhaps some game ports from linux platform but that will not bring new users. You only get new users with new original software or you concentrate on being retro. The problem of all so called NG platforms is (in my view) they are both not modern enough to attract new users and not retro enough to attract old amigans.

The best strategy in my view would be to decide if you want to cover the retro market or want to be interesting for new users outside but then you need a modern platform cutting most of the heritage with new desktop including support for different devices like tablet or smartphone, modern features like SMP, full MP and 64bit. And then you need a basic set of software like up-to-date browser and office package, printer drivers for modern printers, support for USB3 including support of more devices and so on. But even that would not guarantee success, in worst case existing users would not like it and new users are not interested.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 26-Aug-2019 at 09:20 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 26-Aug-2019 at 09:08 AM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 9:18:49
#1934 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2162
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@OlafS25

Agreed completely!

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megol 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 11:17:38
#1935 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 316
From: Unknown

@kolla
GCC doesn't use an interpreter for C++ support, it doesn't translate C++ to C.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 13:17:48
#1936 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@megol

Ok, right, then there's even less reason to talk about this as "improving C++ compilers".

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 13:24:46
#1937 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1292
From: Trondheim, Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:

a kind of what would have been possible if 68k processors would have been further developed and Commodore would have survived.


No it isn't.
- 68k _was_ further developed, that's exactly what ColFire was about
- even Motorola/Freescale had continued the 68k line, it would _not_ have been what the Apollo Core 68080 is - obscured, undocumented, unavailable...
- Commodore wasn't going this route anyhow, as they were moving away from what we know as Amiga

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megol 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 15:14:20
#1938 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 316
From: Unknown

@kolla
Quote:

kolla wrote:
@megol

Ok, right, then there's even less reason to talk about this as "improving C++ compilers".

Please inform yourself before having an opinion as this is just ridiculous.

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nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 15:58:04
#1939 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 894
From: Norway, Oslo

The stand alone version could be interesting if it can run most games and demos released.
Not only for people that don't have Amiga anymore but also a good way to get some very powerfull 68k hardware. I also like the idea it is something new. Something that will last.

WinUAE is a very good Amiga 500 emulator. It is even more compatible with Amiga 500 than a original Amiga 1200. Does WinUAE look, feel sound exactly the same as the real thing. No, but it is close.

Will Vampire be able to run Amiga 500 stuff as good as WinUAE? I doubt it.
I know that if A1200 could boot different rom versions at boot, just like Whd-load can do it would be more compatible. I also know that some did a room switch and that is a possibility.
I notice this a lot since I run A500 demo, sceners productions from Gotek, adf files. I would say around 70% run perfect. 20% have some kind of bug using A1200 and maybe 10% is just a mess, or does not work at all.

I ordered a Gotek drive for my A500 to now. What I also need is a scan doubler if my hardware is compatible. Must check the mobo or get some A500+ or A600.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 26-Aug-2019 20:20:50
#1940 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6173
From: Unknown

well. whether gunnar was over advocating his core it seems it is actually most advanced backwards compatible 68k cpu solution available today. coldfire doesnt seem to provide this.

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