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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 19:38:35
#281 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@amigakit

Glad to see you're still going dude :)

Rob

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 21:14:20
#282 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@bobson

fyi: you arent exactly the first to urge transition to rpi here.

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Lou 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 21:55:15
#283 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4143
From: Rhode Island

The reason there is no official Pi port is because it makes too much sense to have one.

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eliyahu 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 21:56:17
#284 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1894
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Lou

no, the reason is because porting to ARM requires development resources that simply no longer exist.

-- eliyahu

_________________
Multicore support is still a priority

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Nonefornow 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 23:41:36
#285 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 308
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

I thought AROS was already built for the RPi? Am I remembering wrong?

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amigakit 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 23:44:26
#286 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2444
From: www.amigakit.com

@bobson

Thanks. We should meet up for a drink and I can fill you in with what has happened in this community since you left.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | X5000

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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 23:44:59
#287 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown



Quote:

Lou wrote:
The reason there is no official Pi port is because it makes too much sense to have one.


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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 23:52:36
#288 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@amigakit

I should be back in the motherland middle of next month or end of November

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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 21-Aug-2018 23:55:26
#289 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

eliyahu wrote:
@Lou

no, the reason is because porting to ARM requires development resources that simply no longer exist.

-- eliyahu


well, as I've said in almost every post of my new posts :) I'd throw good money at a Pi port

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 1:19:32
#290 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12286
From: Norway

@bobson

What money? are you gong to fund it your self?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Aug-2018 at 01:21 AM.

_________________
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Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

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billt 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 2:03:59
#291 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@Rose

Quote:
What does “written offer valid for any third party” mean in GPLv2? Does that mean everyone in the world can get the source to any GPL'ed program no matter what?

If you choose to provide source through a written offer, then anybody who requests the source from you is entitled to receive it.

If you commercially distribute binaries not accompanied with source code, the GPL says you must provide a written offer to distribute the source code later. When users non-commercially redistribute the binaries they received from you, they must pass along a copy of this written offer. This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written offer.

The reason we require the offer to be valid for any third party is so that people who receive the binaries indirectly in that way can order the source code from you.



Quote:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)



So, there are options, and providing a written letter to be passed along is not 100% of those options. Now, the other option is to just provide the source code with the binary. Maybe included in the tarball, maybe a second download right beside the tarball or floppy disk etc, but some way to obtain it along with obtaining the binary.

I suppose that gets us back around to the real concern though, has this been provided to any binary user via any method at all? I don't have an x5000, and thus do not expect that I would have access to see if a source archive is provided next to or reasonably otherwise accessible to a registered user, who would be expected to have that binary on their install CD or iso download or Hyperion downloads account or whatever.

But it also gets me back to, if they did comply with the non-letter method, and provided source to those who can be expected to have a CD or iso or whatever for the relevant hardware, then I still think that Hyperion's responsibility would be met. (IANAL of course, just an opinionated jerk) I don't see that option requiring them to provide anything at all to you or to me, if we did not receive the binary in a legal way. Then, it would be up to any of those customers to exercise their GPL rights to pass on the binary and sources, and they then become the distributor, and then thus need to either provide a letter to you and your distribution tree recipients, or to include the source with the binary in a compliant way for you or for me to receive from them directly.


Now, no one is required to pass it on. From your FAQ:


Quote:
If I know someone has a copy of a GPL-covered program, can I demand they give me a copy?

No. The GPL gives a person permission to make and redistribute copies of the program if and when that person chooses to do so. That person also has the right not to choose to redistribute the program.



So, for "absolutely everyone" requestor rights to be in effect, then Hyperion would have had to have chosen the "provide a letter" source provision option.

Now, did they indicate their option choice for all relevant GPL binaries?
If not, then they may be in some trouble.
If they did indicate their choice, have they complied with it for all relevant GPL binaries?
If not, then they may be in some trouble.
If they did comply, then are any of those recipients willing to pass it along, per their rights under GPL?
If not, then we are out of luck, as we cannot compell anyone to distribute it o us.


What status is the binary of concern? Released to the public? Or only internally?



I'm also curious about any other-licensing possibility, as it sounded like that had been looked into for libata. I am not willing to simply write off that possibility as hogwash, or some other endearing term of impossibility. Share your concern with the copyright owners, and see what they do about it.

Quote:
Is making and using multiple copies within one organization or company “distribution”?

No, in that case the organization is just making the copies for itself. As a consequence, a company or other organization can develop a modified version and install that version through its own facilities, without giving the staff permission to release that modified version to outsiders.

However, when the organization transfers copies to other organizations or individuals, that is distribution. In particular, providing copies to contractors for use off-site is distribution.

If someone steals a CD containing a version of a GPL-covered program, does the GPL give the thief the right to redistribute that version?

If the version has been released elsewhere, then the thief probably does have the right to make copies and redistribute them under the GPL, but if the thief is imprisoned for stealing the CD, they may have to wait until their release before doing so.

If the version in question is unpublished and considered by a company to be its trade secret, then publishing it may be a violation of trade secret law, depending on other circumstances. The GPL does not change that.

If the company tried to release its version and still treat it as a trade secret, that would violate the GPL, but if the company hasn't released this version, no such violation has occurred.

What if a company distributes a copy as a trade secret?
If a company distributes a copy to you and claims it is a trade secret, the company has violated the GPL and will have to cease distribution.

Note how this differs from the theft case above; the company does not intentionally distribute a copy when a copy is stolen, so in that case the company has not violated the GPL.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

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billt 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 2:32:06
#292 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@Rose

Quote:
Dual licensing refers "This file" as in this documentation. Actual source mentioned is sata_fsl.c which is part of Linux kernel source and definetly not dual licensed. If it was, it would NEVER be in Linux source.


Are we talking about the same file(s)? You seem to point to a particular chip driver by FSL/NXP. I am talking about the libata framework, and/or whatever ssolie referred to as "IDE framework", which I understand to be chip- or device-agnostic, and not including the FSL/NXP-specific files. Now, libata may also be "part of the kernel", mooting any distinction as tar as your comment about never being in the Linux source goes.


Anyway, rewatching the ssolie video about x5000 sta driver, he mentions that libata is GPL. He mentioned that "IDE Framework" is proprietary source code by by Stefan Dunair (sp????), and getting permission from the owner of that. And so that has me questioning whether libata was actually used at all in any publically released binary, other-license possibility or not. For the moment...
I have found a couple non-Amiga mentions of the "IDE Framework", but have not yet found the framework itself to investigate licensing options thereof.

Sounds like "IDE Framework" and libata framework may have been squished together, and permission was requested from IDE Framework owner to allow it to become GPLified... If I understand that part of presentation correctly. I'm starting to wonder if "IDE Framework" is a non-Amiga thing in this context, or some internal source code from AmigaOS history. Hard to search for, as everything that comes up is Eclipse and other programming IDE things, not IDE hard drives...

Last edited by billt on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:45 AM.
Last edited by billt on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:37 AM.

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ne_one 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 2:33:25
#293 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

@bobson

Quote:
well, as I've said in almost every post of my new posts :) I'd throw good money at a Pi port


But why would you want to invest in a port of a legacy OS? Yes, you will gain increased performance and low cost hardware but you can already achieve that through emulation.

The OS needs to be ditched and redeveloped using a donor host. It's simply impossible to move forward using a solution that was architected over 30 years ago and has only evolved nominally since that time.

The reality is that the portions of the AmigaOS that made it unique are now a small proportion of what is required for a general purpose solution.

The good thing is that leveraging existing technology would allow those unique traits to be redesigned and implemented with modern perspectives and needs in mind.

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hth313 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 2:37:17
#294 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 159
From: Delta, Canada

@billt
@Rose

I suggest that you drop this GPL thing, nothing good will come out of it.

First of all, they got permission, which means that the person doing so most likely had the right to do so. If that person signed away his copyrights in some contract with Freescale, then it may be that Freescale owns the copyright, but maybe he asked Freescale who granted the rights in this particular case, who knows?

The thing is that even if there is a GPL violation, the real problem is that they have incompatible licenses in their code base. Just because GPL is violated does not mean AmigaOS is GPL now. There are other licenses in it, and just AmigaOS 3.1 that is included is not even owned by Hyperion and that settlement agreement will not allow them to open source it anyway.

What it boils down to is that either it was done right or it was not. In the latter case someone who had their rights violated can make requests, that would be a buyer of AmigaOS or the copyright owner. Hyperion can just ask the copyright owner for permission and if granted, it would be fine. Otherwise someone would need to take legal actions, and we have seen enough of that.

In the end, the most dramatic thing that can happen is that Hyperion might lose some money and that piece of source will be removed and rewritten with more bugs and nobody will be any happier.

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kamelito 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 7:49:13
#295 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@amigakit @Hans

You're doing a great job but the gap is greater now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY28N0kv7Pk

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Yssing 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 8:58:49
#296 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1069
From: Unknown

@gregthecanuck

Quote:
The problem with AROS is the developer resources are split yet again. And AROS isn't exactly booming along either at the moment. There doesn't appear to be any clear leadership, no roadmap, etc...


There is no reason to think, that that would not happen to AOS4.x in case it got open sourced.

_________________

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 9:00:55
#297 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 846
From: Vancouver, Canada

Quote:

kamelit0 wrote:
@amigakit @Hans

You're doing a great job but the gap is greater now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY28N0kv7Pk


I disagree. There have always been high end multi-thousand dollar video cards.

For desktop 2D/3D usage I believe the gap is closing. And the 3D support is improving with each new enhancer release.

There is some cool stuff coming down the pipeline. It has taken a long time but all the investments are starting to pay off.

Last edited by gregthecanuck on 22-Aug-2018 at 09:02 AM.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 9:04:24
#298 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 846
From: Vancouver, Canada

Quote:

Yssing wrote:
@gregthecanuck

Quote:
The problem with AROS is the developer resources are split yet again. And AROS isn't exactly booming along either at the moment. There doesn't appear to be any clear leadership, no roadmap, etc...


There is no reason to think, that that would not happen to AOS4.x in case it got open sourced.


Someone has to be in charge. There has to be a "final say" somewhere. That is something that I suggested. Otherwise the projects are really without a clear direction.

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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 9:39:56
#299 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@kamelit0

Dude walks out in trendy black garb... tells you how hard they have been working... prompts the audience to pat him on the back and applaud...

Keynotes are sooo formulaic and sucky...

However, what modern GPUs are capable of his mind blowing... The Turing is almost indistinguishable from reality

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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 9:51:05
#300 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote:
@bobson

Quote:
well, as I've said in almost every post of my new posts :) I'd throw good money at a Pi port


But why would you want to invest in a port of a legacy OS? Yes, you will gain increased performance and low cost hardware but you can already achieve that through emulation.

The OS needs to be ditched and redeveloped using a donor host. It's simply impossible to move forward using a solution that was architected over 30 years ago and has only evolved nominally since that time.

The reality is that the portions of the AmigaOS that made it unique are now a small proportion of what is required for a general purpose solution.

The good thing is that leveraging existing technology would allow those unique traits to be redesigned and implemented with modern perspectives and needs in mind.




I basically agree with you. I'd pump cash into a Patreon to bring a stable Amiga like OS to ARM. I personally favour the route as suggested here:

https://jonlennartaasenden.wordpress.com/2018/04/19/the-amiga-arm-project/

The Linux kernel to provide OS low level stuff and access to some drivers - with AROS on top, it can then be used as a stepping stone ala OSX (freeBSD kernel...) to a future, on commodity hardware with mass market. An AmigaOS mobile OS would be stellar - light weight and fast, and doing everything in little memory.

A Pi is cheap... dirt cheap. AROS on it, you'd have binary compatibility with legacy software - with the opportunity to build new software around new API's.

Plus, most office / email apps are going web app - so being able to run a modern web browser would make the system usable as a daily driver.

... and, it would make it possible to run node.js (not essential - I just do a lot of node :D)

Running open source projects is crazy hard - they still need to be run as a "professional software product" - and that requires money. I'd happily throw a few hundred in a month (that wouldn't be enough - it would need more, but would others chip in?)

Although - I've been away for ages, so this has probably all been discussed before

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