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Events   Events : Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
   posted by sg2 on 29-Sep-2004 11:32:54 (18569 reads)
Hello All!

The html pages which are available at http://s.guillard.free.fr/alc4/index.html are just an introduction slideshow that I presented as a starter, it does not relate what I shown and said afterwards. Please find below a couple of notes about my presentation at Alchimie show.



1 ? Show highlights
Here is a quick summary of the presentation I did :

- I booted with boot delays set to 1 second for UBoot and for SLB (second level booter), thus less than 20 seconds after power on, we were with a fully loaded Workbench with Amidock.

- I started with the small html slideshow, presented on IBrowse. You can find those pages at the URL above. IBrowse loaded in 2 seconds with its about : page fully displayed. Browsing through the pages of the slideshow was instantaneous.

- While we were at it, I browsed the OS4 install guide, also as fast as can be, must say I also find this responsiveness impressive myself :)

Then I demoed as many things as I had time to during the 2 hours I had. Everything worked, fast & stable, and was smooth and impressed. I showed mainly:
- All os4 system, tools, utilities, prefs & stuff
- MUI, IBrowse, Amitradecenter
- Yam, SimpleMail
- ClassAction (M. Elsner's file manager)
- MakeCD
- MooVid running a DivX
- DVPlayer running an mpeg2
- AudioEvolution 4 with the demo project, cursors auto moving smoothly, the playback was smooth also, with mostly no CPU usage.
- AmiPDF with the AE4 manual and another heavy PDF file, very fast
- USB. I plugged a Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical into my USB hub, and we had 2 mice to control the system
- Crisot's slach5 winning demo (got applauses which it deserved)
- chip's rayrace realtime raytracer demo. When the juggler appeared, audience was impressed, but really took measure of what they were watching when I moved the mouse. Wait for the Altivec version !
- FPSE, AmiDog's PS1 emulator, with an oldskool game which ran nicely ('Cotton')
- some other visual toys I had at hand

The demos only grimreaped twice, and I anticipated the grims before they popped up :
- One was native glsokoban / w3d, when I launch it does a base page access (a ?null pointer? bug in glsokoban). I didactically shown the disassembly which is available in the grimreaper window, was a store to r4, r4 was null etc. I clicked on continue, and it all went fine & fast.

- One was frying pan 0.3.1, I shown the app, and at one point I said 'now it should grim? and it did. It still loaded fine though. I quit the app, clicked on reboot and less than 4 secs after, wb was up with amidock. That was the only reboot of the show.

I forgot to show (because of short time):
- Petunia... Almos, sorry, I had prepared something for that (side by side windowed jit & nonjit runs of voxelspace), but i both forgot, and was asked to stop at this point by the party organizers cause it was already 5:30 pm while I was scheduled until 4pm.
- ArtEffect
- USB with MassStorage (ie USB key or digital camera)

At the end, I had many fair questions to which I answered; my feeling is that the audience really appreciated the effort behind what I shown, and was conscious that we are not far away from a releasable 4.0.

Then came the expected question, 'and why doesn?t DMA work ?'

I said 'All what you saw was DMA since the 1st boot'.
I copied a few 100 MB files in a snap, with zero CPU (thanks to Pete Gordon for the clock/CPU docky, helps a lot). Then I switched to PIO, they saw 4 x slower and 80% CPU.
The audience understood that it was indeed DMA, and that was fast, and that was part of the overall smoothness of what I shown.

Then I explained the things below (this is the reference for my statements, please don?t rephrase or extrapolate or invent or whatever):

- IDE UDMA works on VIA and Articia on AmigaOne SE / XE / ÁA1 MK2 (as I demoed) ...
- ... except when the Ethernet chip goes online and is used.
- the Ethernet chip only triggers the problem, but it is not at all related to it (a test using a PCI Ethernet shows the same behaviour)
- We have made a driver for a Silicon Image 680 PCI IDE UDMA133 controller chip, this does UDMA 133 nicely, including when Ethernet is used at full speed.
- The fact that a PCI IDE controller solution works, shows that the problem is *not* related to Articia, since PCI DMA is *also* handled by the Articia, and that works.
- The full Alchimie show demo was done using UDMA, both from the VIA and from the Si680, without problem (but with Ethernet off, would the Ethernet have been turned online, I would have had to revert the VIA into PIO before).
- Things are currently under more investigation
In the meantime there are 2 options for existing A1 board owners:
- Use the VIA IDE controller in PIO mode when using Ethernet, and UDMA at other times,
- Purchase a faster (UDMA133) Silicon Image 0680 IDE PCI card (from around $20). This is my personally recommended option as the delivered speed is noticeable faster than the on-board VIA controller in UDMA mode.

Kind regards,
--
StÚphane
    

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PosterThread
-Sam- 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:26:39
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 3003
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

Less than 4 seconds for a warm reboot?

That sounds very good.

With regards to DMA - what a weird bug. The solution to use the UDMA card sounds fine. $20 for a faster IDE connection anyway is good enough for me. When newer versions of the hardware appear I expect that this problem will be fixed.


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tomazkid 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:27:09
#2 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

Interesting and a good summary
Thanks

Me wanders off to look for a Silicon Image 0680 IDE PCI card


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Anonymous 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:28:59
# ]



Can anyone point me to a store in sweden that sells a nic with a "Silicon Image 680 PCI IDE UDMA133" chip ?

/Bj÷rn

 
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tomazkid 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:36:41
#4 ]
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Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

I'm looking for it


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Anonymous 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:42:17
# ]



So

1. DMA works as expected
2. Cockup on mobo that causes conflict between ethernet and ide controller onboard

OK, anyone sending patches abroad? Patch easy to do?

 
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jahc 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:42:51
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-May-2003
Posts: 2959
From: Auckland, New Zealand

I'm looking up prices for this PCI IDE card and I'm not too worried about how much it costs... but I'm wondering how you go about installing it? Just stick the card in the machine, and UBOOT will use the new IDE controller straight away or is there a new driver or ide.device or what?

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AmiDog 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:47:14
#7 ]
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Joined: 1-Jun-2004
Posts: 917
From: Kumla, Sweden

@ Orgin & tomazkid

While the image here seem to be of the ATA66 controller, the ATA133 controller does use the "Silicon Image 0680 ATA Controller Chip", so it should be a compatible card @ komplett for 295 SEK...

edit: Dataparadiset has the same card for 271 SEK here (with the same picture as komplett has, so I guess one better ask them first before buying it to make sure it has the correct controller). They also have the EIO card which Bobsonsirjonny has to offer here (595 SEK).

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Menthos 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:49:40
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 261
From: Bureň / Sweden

Please tell if you find it anywhere in Sweden!

Maybe Gurumeditation and/or GGS-Data could import and sell them (I don't want warranty issues with other countries, the cost to send hardware is too high) if there is noone else in Sweden?

** Edit: AmiDog allready found it! Yippie! =)

/Me

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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:49:45
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

I have access to a load of IDE PCI cards

They use the SIL 0680 chipset. Who wants one?

ú22 each including Europe wide pandp


(Im not a shop, Im being a capitialist and exploiting the situation so I can afford a uA1 )

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Menthos 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 12:53:56
#10 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 261
From: Bureň / Sweden

@Amidog
Nice! Then I hope they still sells them when we get the update with the UDMA drivers!
(or there is a software fix for the AOne so we don't need them at all!)

/Me

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JurassicC 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:07:09
#11 ]
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Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 1433
From: Somerset, UK

Bobson, cheaper than maplins theirs are 29.99 GBP


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elwood 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:10:05
#12 ]
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Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3417
From: Lyon, France

Hold on everyone. Nobody said you will be able to use a SIL0680 based card with the soon to be released update of OS4.
Ok ? So there's no rush. Stay calm


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JurassicC 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:16:33
#13 ]
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Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 1433
From: Somerset, UK

@ Elwood

Were does it say that they would be in the update ?
I've not read that any where on AW or in this news item.


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mbilla 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:24:52
#14 ]
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Joined: 25-May-2003
Posts: 1369
From: EU

@StÚphane

Thx a lot.

Sounds really great. I want to see this Altivec raytracer demo on my A1 G4!!!

@all

Off Topic: I always used SCSI on my Amigas. So what the difference between UDMA, VIA IDE, PIO mode etc. Thx for explanantions.


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ajk 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:25:57
#15 ]
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Joined: 13-Oct-2003
Posts: 291
From: Finland

So, basically, we will not get IDE DMA with the update (my A1 is online 100% of the time it is on)?

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mbilla 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:27:43
#16 ]
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Joined: 25-May-2003
Posts: 1369
From: EU

Quote:
Then I hope they still sells them when we get the update with the UDMA drivers!


Are these Cards difficult to get?


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tomazkid 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:28:29
#17 ]
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Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@Amidog

Impressive!
How do you find them so fast?

Thanks


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sg2 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:29:24
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Jun-2004
Posts: 223
From: Lyon, France

Quote:
So what the difference between UDMA, VIA IDE, PIO mode etc


To make it simple :

- IDE and SCSI are physical data transports

- PIO is a transfer mode when the main CPU sucks (or writes) the bytes one by one from / to the device, and stores them in memory. Both rather slow and CPU hugry usually.

- DMA is a transfer mode where you have a third actor on the bus (aside the CPU & the drive controller), which is programmed by the CPU to do this data sucking process on its own. This so called DMA controller will claim and use the BUS to do memory read / write cycles, this is why it is then called a busmaster.

Kind regards,
--
StÚphane

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tomazkid 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:31:05
#19 ]
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Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@ajk

Quote:
So, basically, we will not get IDE DMA with the update (my A1 is online 100% of the time it is on)?


I understood it the same way, if the A1 is equipped with the VIA.

*edit* Similar to the way Linux disables DMA due to dma-timeouts, I recon?


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Menthos 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:33:00
#20 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 261
From: Bureň / Sweden

@mbilla
Quote:
Are these Cards difficult to get?


The problem (is it a problem?) here is that we don't know when we get the UDMA enabled OS4 and the drivers for this PCI card (maybe the driver is allready in OS4 pre?).
It *could* take years (I guess it will be sooner, but who knows?).

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