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Events   Events : Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
   posted by sg2 on 29-Sep-2004 11:32:54 (20358 reads)
Hello All!

The html pages which are available at http://s.guillard.free.fr/alc4/index.html are just an introduction slideshow that I presented as a starter, it does not relate what I shown and said afterwards. Please find below a couple of notes about my presentation at Alchimie show.



1 ? Show highlights
Here is a quick summary of the presentation I did :

- I booted with boot delays set to 1 second for UBoot and for SLB (second level booter), thus less than 20 seconds after power on, we were with a fully loaded Workbench with Amidock.

- I started with the small html slideshow, presented on IBrowse. You can find those pages at the URL above. IBrowse loaded in 2 seconds with its about : page fully displayed. Browsing through the pages of the slideshow was instantaneous.

- While we were at it, I browsed the OS4 install guide, also as fast as can be, must say I also find this responsiveness impressive myself :)

Then I demoed as many things as I had time to during the 2 hours I had. Everything worked, fast & stable, and was smooth and impressed. I showed mainly:
- All os4 system, tools, utilities, prefs & stuff
- MUI, IBrowse, Amitradecenter
- Yam, SimpleMail
- ClassAction (M. Elsner's file manager)
- MakeCD
- MooVid running a DivX
- DVPlayer running an mpeg2
- AudioEvolution 4 with the demo project, cursors auto moving smoothly, the playback was smooth also, with mostly no CPU usage.
- AmiPDF with the AE4 manual and another heavy PDF file, very fast
- USB. I plugged a Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical into my USB hub, and we had 2 mice to control the system
- Crisot's slach5 winning demo (got applauses which it deserved)
- chip's rayrace realtime raytracer demo. When the juggler appeared, audience was impressed, but really took measure of what they were watching when I moved the mouse. Wait for the Altivec version !
- FPSE, AmiDog's PS1 emulator, with an oldskool game which ran nicely ('Cotton')
- some other visual toys I had at hand

The demos only grimreaped twice, and I anticipated the grims before they popped up :
- One was native glsokoban / w3d, when I launch it does a base page access (a ?null pointer? bug in glsokoban). I didactically shown the disassembly which is available in the grimreaper window, was a store to r4, r4 was null etc. I clicked on continue, and it all went fine & fast.

- One was frying pan 0.3.1, I shown the app, and at one point I said 'now it should grim? and it did. It still loaded fine though. I quit the app, clicked on reboot and less than 4 secs after, wb was up with amidock. That was the only reboot of the show.

I forgot to show (because of short time):
- Petunia... Almos, sorry, I had prepared something for that (side by side windowed jit & nonjit runs of voxelspace), but i both forgot, and was asked to stop at this point by the party organizers cause it was already 5:30 pm while I was scheduled until 4pm.
- ArtEffect
- USB with MassStorage (ie USB key or digital camera)

At the end, I had many fair questions to which I answered; my feeling is that the audience really appreciated the effort behind what I shown, and was conscious that we are not far away from a releasable 4.0.

Then came the expected question, 'and why doesn?t DMA work ?'

I said 'All what you saw was DMA since the 1st boot'.
I copied a few 100 MB files in a snap, with zero CPU (thanks to Pete Gordon for the clock/CPU docky, helps a lot). Then I switched to PIO, they saw 4 x slower and 80% CPU.
The audience understood that it was indeed DMA, and that was fast, and that was part of the overall smoothness of what I shown.

Then I explained the things below (this is the reference for my statements, please don?t rephrase or extrapolate or invent or whatever):

- IDE UDMA works on VIA and Articia on AmigaOne SE / XE / µA1 MK2 (as I demoed) ...
- ... except when the Ethernet chip goes online and is used.
- the Ethernet chip only triggers the problem, but it is not at all related to it (a test using a PCI Ethernet shows the same behaviour)
- We have made a driver for a Silicon Image 680 PCI IDE UDMA133 controller chip, this does UDMA 133 nicely, including when Ethernet is used at full speed.
- The fact that a PCI IDE controller solution works, shows that the problem is *not* related to Articia, since PCI DMA is *also* handled by the Articia, and that works.
- The full Alchimie show demo was done using UDMA, both from the VIA and from the Si680, without problem (but with Ethernet off, would the Ethernet have been turned online, I would have had to revert the VIA into PIO before).
- Things are currently under more investigation
In the meantime there are 2 options for existing A1 board owners:
- Use the VIA IDE controller in PIO mode when using Ethernet, and UDMA at other times,
- Purchase a faster (UDMA133) Silicon Image 0680 IDE PCI card (from around $20). This is my personally recommended option as the delivered speed is noticeable faster than the on-board VIA controller in UDMA mode.

Kind regards,
--
Stéphane
    

STORYID: 1752
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ErikBauer 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:37:33
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1140
From: Italy

@ Stèphan

I think I'm in Love with OS4!

Whew! 4 Seconds for Down + Warm boot! I want to my PeeCee!!!

Reading your post makes my mind wander...

I think I will dream about OS4 this night...


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Mark 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:42:14
#22 ]
Team Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 1457
From: UK

Thats expensive for this card, you can pick them up for £16.91 incl uk delivery from .....


Mark


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ikir 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:44:36
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2002
Posts: 5647
From: Italy

@sg2

Thanks for the informations! And thanks for you presentation/demostration.


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KimmoK 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:45:22
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5206
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

"- IDE UDMA works on VIA and Articia on AmigaOne SE / XE / µA1 MK2 (as I demoed) ...
- ... except when the Ethernet chip goes online and is used."

Perhaps this is some clever scheme to kill bplan guys with laughter. I hope it is. Otherwise it's too sad.


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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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Anonymous 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:48:05
# ]



 
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elwood 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:55:47
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3427
From: Lyon, France

@ KimmoK

Please take a plane right now. Come here and you'll see full DMA with your eyes...

Thank you.

BTW, additional information here !


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DrBombcrater 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 13:59:16
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

I wonder if Eyetech will feel obliged to ship us all free Si680 cards to make up for the fact that their hardware is horribly broken and doesn't meet its advertised specifications?

Since they probably won't, EBuyer are doing these cards for just £10.

It's nice to get some fact at last, even if they're rather depressing.


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Anonymous 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:03:13
# ]



@jahc

it is very easy

- Stick into PCI slot
- from uboot setenv ide sii
- saveenv
-reset..

From now on A1 start use Si680 as default IDE..

on AmigaOS4 si680ide.device.kmod takes care of IDE

I can use udma70 mode on my A1SE with Si680 PCI board...

 
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poweramiga2002 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:08:39
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2003
Posts: 1389
From: Flinders NSW Australia

erm that news is not good as my A1 is connected 24/7 via linux box looks like no udma for me

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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:10:12
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

@ DrBombcrator


You've ruined me!!

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elwood 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:13:48
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3427
From: Lyon, France

@ DrBombcrater

to all the people that feel betrayed by Eyetech:

Please remember that we are in a niche (very small) market.
Eyetech could have spend more time testing its boards before selling them. Doing so would have make the price higher.
Eyetech is not a multi-billion company like Apple or others. They simply couldn't do better.

And think about the fact that using this IDE PCI card allows you to have:
- 8 IDE drives connected (4 doing DMAs and 4 doing PIO)
- faster IDE performance on the PCI card than with the onboard VIA
- an Amiga doing IDE read/writes faster than any other Amigas

And this for a small price, approximately 20 Euros. We can't be sad, really.
We can't.

Amiga rulez.


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KimmoK 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:14:21
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5206
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@elwood

"Please take a plane right now. Come here and you'll see full DMA with your eyes..."

I was @ Tampere last weekend, I saw DMA working. (at that point we did not have ethernet connection)

From the link you posted:

" Anyway, even when those two issues are taken care of (PRD is allocated in uncached RAM, manual cacheflush for the coherency problem, i8259 code fixed), the linux code runs into the same hardware problem as the OS4 code : VIA IDE DMA cannot run reliably as soon as ethernet is used. Fact"

That's why I said what I said.

But ok. As long as Eyetech manages to arrange fix to that problem (other than users spending even more money), people can live with it.


***************************************************
I think one core reason for "Amiga" branding was to ensure quality.
If that is still the case, KMOS shoud demand tougher testing before shipping.


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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
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DrBombcrater 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:17:08
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Bobson

Oops! Sorry, I didn't realise! Tell you what, I'll phone Ebuyer and get them to put their price up a bit

I'd actually, by a strange coincidence, extensively checked the prices on Si680 cards a couple of days ago because I planned on buying one for my A1 as I've never been a fan of the 686 IDE controller.

Anyone outside the UK should avoid Ebuyer, tho, as they can be a b*itch to deal with if anything goes wrong with your order.


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tomazkid 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:27:14
#34 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@Elwood

We have allready invested in PCI soundcards, so a PCI IDE-card to replace the onboard one is just one less PCI-slot free...



Quote:
And think about the fact that using this IDE PCI card allows you to have:
- 8 IDE drives connected (4 doing DMAs and 4 doing PIO)
- faster IDE performance on the PCI card than with the onboard VIA
- an Amiga doing IDE read/writes faster than any other Amigas


So you suggest to use the internal ide in PIO-mode, and the PCI-ide with udma133 (Fastest DMA)?
Doesn't sound too bad the way you put it


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ajk 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:28:49
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2003
Posts: 291
From: Finland

A PCI IDE board cannot be left to be the only solution here, using another PCI slot (in addition to the mandatory sound card) doesn't leave much room for expansion. I'd still need a SCSI controller, TV card (although if Radeon All-In-Wonders will be supported this isn't important) and a Catweasel.

I would hope to see a fix for the actual problem be presented (which, unfortunately, will probably mean shipping the board back for some time).

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poweramiga2002 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:34:07
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2003
Posts: 1389
From: Flinders NSW Australia

@DrBombcrater



erk im from Australia what typ of probs would i expect to havebuying from Ebuyer?

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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:36:51
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

Well I just receieved my monitor from them... I was meant to recieve it a few days ago...

In the past they have also failed to send me goods. Failed to have the item in stock. It once took them 6 weeks to ship my items. I only use them because they are sooo cheap.

Nuff said I think.

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poweramiga2002 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:41:41
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2003
Posts: 1389
From: Flinders NSW Australia

ill have to order 3 of these cards but dont want to get ripped off with shonky companys

would be better if it could be fixed

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mr2 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:50:09
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 691
From: Poland

I think Eyetech has to announce something immediately.
Now, the specification (PCI slots) of XE/SE model is closer to MicroA1 except the price


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poweramiga2002 
Re: Notes about my presentation at Alchimie 4, & about DMA
Posted on 29-Sep-2004 14:55:20
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2003
Posts: 1389
From: Flinders NSW Australia

seriously this cant be for real its goto be some sort of joke the onboard sound not working was not so bad
but this its beyond a joke !!!

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