@chris and TheDaddy and thread

I apologize for my 'rant,' or what seems like one. And I'm done posting in here.
We have fundamental disagreements - you accept the 'need' for 'custom special hardware' and I do not, based on what it has 'done for us,' a prime example being SAM. That will never grow a market beyond the already interested, and having excessive $.

Obviously, the court case and funding affects this, but I simply don't believe non commodity hardware, made 'for amiga users only' is ever going to be the answer that's needed, at the prices reflected. Were that the case, the 'need for SAM to succeed' would NOT be tied to OS4 success, and the OS would have a far better chance of making some money for Hyperion and developers, and OS 'success' would be limited by it's features and software much more than the cost of entry.

I'm not 'pointing fingers' here, either. I entirely accept what 'is right now' and that is PPC. It would indeed be a huge effort to 'just port to x86,' which is why, along with growth, I've suggested a VM environment alongside Qemu or similar. Another stop-gap solution, by all means, but one that reduces the cost of entry and can sell the OS, until more reasonable bang/buck hardware can be found to port to, that is not the bang/buck that SAM is, and more attainable/reasonable for more than the few hundred or so max that will buy SAM.

Sorry, lest this become another long post, will leave it there. There are very likely legal and other implications and other issues we, and I, know nothing about, but 'custom hardware' at SAM prices is not a path leading to success, IMHO, obviously.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Reth:
What I mean by 'the only' is that it is the available graphic card.
If you have another PCI Radeon which is 3,3V compatible, perhaps it will work with Sam440Flex, but I can't confirm that.
Radeon other than the 9250 are not built anymore, so, you can't have one 'really' new.

Thanks,
Laurent aka Faranheit

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Amedia Computer France
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@Chris

>>No one is denying that they'd love to see cheaper/faster machines capable of running OS4, and I'm sure this is top of Hyperion's priorities, but let's be a little realistic here: We are damn lucky to have ANY hardware to run OS4 on, so complaining about price/performance right now is pretty silly IMHO. (And one gets the feeling you'd rather be bitching about lack of hardware - don't you remember the frustration of the last several years?!?).

If OS4 & Sam440 sells well enough, then OF COURSE we will (probably) see faster/cheaper/better machines to run OS4. But you have to have patience, as things move slowly in cash-strapped Amiga-land (esp with the current economy). In an ideal world things would be different, but we aren't living in one, so this is what we have to live with.

If you want to point any fingers at the causes of our current situation, I suggest Amiga Inc (#1) for deciding OS4 should use PPC instead of x86, and Amiga Inc (#2) for being unreasonable with Hyperion. And perhaps Amiga Inc & Hyperion for letting the contract get totally out-of-date only a year or two after it was signed, and then not doing anything about that.




Totally agree with that.

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Quote:

nobody (or a few) buy the SAM = High Price = very few boards = no profit = developer/business leaves the market

A lot of people says that the SAM is expensive because it's made in small batches....

What about the minimig - it's also being produced in small quantities.

Minimig w/o taxes: 138 euro
SAM flex w/o taxes: 375 euro
Price of CPU for SAM: 440ep: 38 euro

So the SAM flex is 199 euro more expensive (if you leave out the CPU) than the minimig which is also a niche product - am I missing something in the calculation?

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@bitman:
Please use prices WITH taxes because it seems to confuse many people.

Minimig at our shop (in stock) : 189 euros with the 1 GB secure digital and the power supply,
Sam440Flex at our shop : 489 euros.

That is making 300 euros of difference between Minimig and Sam440Flex, which is norml I think as Minimig has only one utility.

I remind that the prices from ACube site you mention are :
- 138 euros for the Minimig WITHOUT taxes and WITHOUT power supply
- 375 euros for Sam440Flex WITHOUT taxes.

Laurent aka Faranheit

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@Moderators - All the links I click in this thread return with a message - This account has been suspended. Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible.

@Faranheit

Sent you a message about the Sam, please reply to it.

@ ALL

Personnaly, I don't have an issue spending some money on a hobby that interests me. I've spent countless $ $ $ on my PC to have the best overall experience - why would this be any different? I think if we continue to show support for our beloved Amiga, with hardware saless and software sales, we'll eventually get to a point where we get normal releases of software and hardware. We are the reason why the Amiga continues to live, in one form or another, let's not be the reason why it dies forever.

Ed

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@edponpon

Quote:

@Moderators - All the links I click in this thread return with a message - This account has been suspended. Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible.

Confirmed by others, as well as the owner, who will do his very best to fix this by tomorrow.

#6

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@all

maybe it will be interesting and useful to hear another point of view from the potencial SAM customer. Computers are one of my favorite hobbies.
Firstly, i have never been Amiga user My jurney in it world started 1984 with zx48, then atari st, 1991 he passed away and my first pc camed...2005 i discovered macs..2008 ps3..as you see i have an interesting home network.
I saw what Amiga can do when i played with my friends, literaly i couldnt beleieve what a500 or a2000 could do with real3d, lightwave, genlocks etc..
During the 90s i forgot the name of Amiga and by coincidence, few monthes ago, when i googled for osX atari emulators I typed amiga and saw websites gathering Amiga communities who are STILL ALIVE. It is amazing.
So i started to visit this portals and rest is history...

I am definitely interested in to buy real a500 for gaming and..

this avangard piece of hardware/software called SAM and OS4.1

I am aware of all lack of hardware abilities, bang for buck etc but its still interesting for me. A little piece of non globalized freedom, real open source software (where you know by nickname at least 50% of developers) and finally fact that there is not a big brother (read. planty od hidden procceses in os X and Win, cookies, trojans,...)

But, 688 plus shiping cost (I live in Novi Sad, Serbia) without disks, case, crt... its a huge ammount of money for a toy. Add 100 or 200e and imac 20 is yours. Insane....

The maximum that i am ready to pay for above mentioned conf (sam flex, 512 mb, 9250, os 4.1) is 400e. Of course, its still un rational buying but with this price range i can accept this.

Sorry for the post length

Best
Zvezdan

@Starlights:

I think you live in another world than our !

Since the motherboard is at 489 euros, how do you want any reseller will sell you a near complete system at 400 euros ??!!

If you want these pieces (motherboard, memory, graphic card and AmigaOS 4.1), it's at 688 euros (with taxes, without transport fees to Serbia).

I remind too that for any customer who takes an harddisk with the motherboard / memory / graphic card / AmigaOS 4.1, we install the software on it with some more applications in order the customer can use it directly after receiving the package.
Also, I remind that any people who order at least the motherboard will be able to add a licence for the Frying Pan burning software for only 5 euros more ;)

Thanks, Laurent aka Faranheit

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Amiga Inc ---- chose -> Hyperion ---- ACube -> ---- chose -> Sam440 ---- chose -> Flexing their reseller power and lots of resellers have joined to sell at the current pricing.

WHO LOST MONEY?
1) Sony
2) MS
3) Google
4) AMD
5) Intel
6) Lots more people....

WHO SOLD FOR LESS OR SUBSIDIZED?
1) Sony
2) MS
3) Google
4) AMD
5) Intel
6) Lots more people....

WHO IS FIRING THOUSANDS OF WORKERS THIS YEAR 2009?
1) Sony
2) MS
3) Google
4) AMD
5) Intel
6) Lots more people....

I rest my case, "I WIN", please invite all the press to my council right now.

_________________
Quote:

Easy Pocket Money, Freelancers & Experts Online

MiniMig FPGA, Sam440 Flex 733Mhz PPC, Amiga OS 4.1 Update 2, MorphOS 2.4, Other - AmiKit + Cloanto Amiga Forever 2008 + E-UAE, AmigaSYS

@Faranheit


Man, i am not pointing finger on you. You are a reseller of a product and i thought it would be interesting for you to see how customers from your or another worlds (btw, do you remeber the game, think 1991, another world ) react on the product you intened to sell.

Maybe, if Acube wants to listen, you,amigakit and other serious resellers may push some price drop in order to do a better business. It is a very simple equation, lets say 300 sams with apprx 200e net profit per each or 3.000 sams with 50e profit per each. Furthermore if you achieve batches of 1k or more, production price will fall and profit margin will incriese.

What i think is about that acube is gathered from a few companies, fixed costs are high, brake even also and they choosed logic: Ok, they are at least few hundred people who wants any kind of hardware to run os4 and we think that they are not very cost sensitive, in other words, they are ready to pay 200,300 or near 600e just to support only amiga hardware vendor...

According to me, its maybe not the best strategy, for acube, for resellers and for sake and future od amiga.

Best

Zvezdan

@starlights:
Do you really think that with a 489 euros selling price we make 200 euros of benefit ??!!

We just have enough to pay taxes and transport fees with this for informations.

So, the only way reseller can make better prices is that ACube decrease the reseller prices, and that's not possible at all for them.

Please understand that we're not on a big market like on PC with million of possible hardware, Sam's board are the only one hardware which supports AmigaOS 4.x since 3 years, I think it largely worth it.

If all people think as you and wait for a better price (like 300 euros for the notherboard for example), ACube will not sell Sam's anymore and there will be definitaly no more possible hardware in the future for AmigaOS.

In the world we're living, many big societies are firing a large amount of people however they make big benefits ; in our community, there is for the moment only ACube who want to go further with Sam's hardware, but they will not be able to go on developping new hardware it the current is not sold.
I really think that Sam's hardware (440EP or Flex) is a very good one, stable and with many advantage for electricity use for example.

Let's give a chance to ACube, Sam's board have been sold only since 3,5 month and they have done more in this little time than any other before them.

Laurent aka Faranheit
Thanks to consider us as a serious reseller starlights ;)

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Amedia Computer France
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@starlights

>>I am definitely interested in to buy real a500 for gaming and..


you would be probably better off with the Minimig and one of my cases

www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

or from Faranheit' shop

(end of lame self publicity but hey, I have worked hard on this)


I also need to tell everyone that yes everything Amiga is expensive but:

1) It has always been
2) If you spend that kind of money on a pc now, the same pc in 6 months will be worth less than half
3) some people, like me, are doing this with their own cash, the same goes for Faranheit, he bought the SAMs (very small quantities) himself, not through the business and, like me, we haven't seen any tangible profit yet so...
4) Support the Amiga market, especially at this time

Thank you

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

@Faranheit

Quote:

The only Radeon PCI available is the 9250, so, there is no real other choice for the Sam440Flex for the moment.

Refer to http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131082
PowerColor ATI Radeon HD 2400 PRO 256MB GDDR2 PCI.

Refer to http://www.shopbot.ca/pp-diamond-stealth-ati-radeon-hd-2400pro-pci-256mb-gddr2-diamond-price-112839.html
Diamond Stealth ATI Radeon HD 2400PRO PCI 256MB GDDR2

Refer to http://www.superwarehouse.com/VisionTek_Radeon_HD2400_Pro_PCI_256MB_VGA_DVI-I_TV_OUT/900176/p/1539958
VisionTek Radeon HD 2400 Pro PCI 256MB VGA DVI-I TV OUT

GDDR2 is running at 800Mhz. The issue would be AOS4.X's support for ATI Radeon HDs. IF AmigaOS 4.X support these Radeon HDs, At least its GPU would have a modern architecture e.g. 40 stream processors.

AMD/ATI Radeon HDs supports hardware programmable tessellation and global illumination units i.e. it mitigates weak CPUs. Like MS Xbox 360 and Nintendo Wii, the resulting machine would be GPU centric.

AMD/ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro can easily blow away Nintendo Wii in computational performance.

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Last edited by Hammer on 23-Jan-2009 at 09:19 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 23-Jan-2009 at 09:16 PM.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

Quote:

AMD/ATI Radeon HDs supports hardware programmable tessellation and global illumination units i.e. it mitigates weak CPUs. Like MS Xbox 360 and Nintendo Wii, the resulting machine would be GPU centric.

Quote:

AMD/ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro can easily blow away Nintendo Wii in computational performance.

I'm very happy to see someone else understands it. Well said !

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Hammer:
I was talking about Radeon supported by AmigaOS 4.1 for informations, not for radeon which fit on Sam motherboard physically !

Perhaps there will be some drivers for these cards one day but for the moment, if you want to have a display, you don't have the choice ;)

There is a big difference between the cards which are supported by the software and those which can just fit physically !

For example, on Pegasos 2, you can put any pci graphic card on the motherboard, but you will not have a display if there is no driver.

I doubt that people want to order a graphic card which is speeder or have more video memory if there is no driver for it.

Laurent aka Faranheit

_________________
ZORAWSKI Laurent
Amedia Computer France
Your Amigadventurer
Mobile : (+33) 7 71 10 72 22
Fax : (+33) 3 87 57 07 21
Mail : laurent@amedia-computer.com
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@wegster
Unfortunately it is *entirely* too late to port OS4 to x86. And putting OS4 in a PPC Virtual Machine on an x86 machine is unlikely to be a viable solution - I guess the overhead emulating PPC (on a single x86 core) would make it slower than a Sam440, which would defeat your whole point.

IMHO, it is "PPC or bust" for OS4, whether we like that or not. If you look at my posts only a year or so ago, I was wishing for OS4 to be ported to x86, but I have had to accept that this will not happen (in any way that would be useful to existing Amiga owners - i.e. with PPC & 68k emulation).

P.S. I never said that Sam440's success was tied to OS4. ACube's whole raison d'etre is that the Sam440 is supposed to have other markets, and IIRC m3x has even confirmed they do (at least) have some such customers.

Last edited by ChrisH on 25-Jan-2009 at 10:44 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 25-Jan-2009 at 10:44 AM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 25-Jan-2009 at 10:41 AM.

_________________
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@Faranheit
"IF AmigaOS 4.X support these Radeon HDs"

Anyway, Hans de Ruiter is working on Radeon X1 and HD driver
http://hdrlab.org.nz/radeonhd-driver/

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer:

Great to see there is development for most recent hardware, I hope he will be able to finish it ;)

Thanks for the informations:)
Laurent aka Faranheit

_________________
ZORAWSKI Laurent
Amedia Computer France
Your Amigadventurer
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Mail : laurent@amedia-computer.com
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