@Karlos

Quote:

I don't know what the issue is here. Almost every PPC AmigaOS application, tool, system component (library, driver, datatype, filesystem, etc) is written in C. You still have some potential structural dependence on 32-bit pointers and big endian data layouts but as it stands this could be ported to ARM pretty much as-is. It's still RISC, it's still Big Endian, it's still 32-bit. All the things that even the most lunatic PowerPC devotee insists are necessary.

I don't think that it's the CPU that's "trapping" it, but "business & legal issues."

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 17-Sep-2024 at 11:43 AM.

_________________
Join the Kea Campus - upgrade your skills; support my work; enjoy the Amiga corner.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - see more of my work

@Karlos

missing components are both drivers for new hardware and modern software. Software today is demanding, too demanding even for most PPC amiga systems

You also need 64bit support, SMP and full memory protection. Security is a big issue today. And it must run on affordable hardware. I see there no chance, for any NG platform.

AxRuntime potentially is interesting, exepecially if combinrd with a real amiga theme and port of a amiga desktop like scalos. It would potentially solve a lot of problems. Some will say it not amiga but linux. But in my view it would at least offer a combination of a modern platform with look & feel of amiga. But that is future (hopefully).

The other concepts do not persuade me.

@OlafS25

My point is, you don't need PPC to run what NG *is*. What you are talking about is what NG *should* be, e.g. 64 bit and SMP.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Hans

legal situation is not helping but I am not sure how many investors you would find even without that. Finally where is the niche or advantage compared to the big platforms like linux/unix, that are safer bets now?

Amiga is retro today

@Hans

Or to simplify, "wankerish" reasons, essentially dictated by petty unreasonable people

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: Finally where is the niche or advantage compared to the big platforms like linux/unix, that are safer bets now?

None whatsoever, but that's not the point. The idea that AmigaOS could have any kind of competitive advantage in today's world seems an outright rejection of reality. Nevertheless, it doesn't need to be a retro platform in the sense of being tied to obscure/boutique HW that literally nobody can get hold of.

The platform doesn't need to be competitive. People use it because they like it. There are countless other obscuee alternative operating systems on x86/x64 that are equally "useless" in today's world that people still maintain and for the sheer fun of it.

The problem with AmigaOS 4.x is that it's just too difficult to get into: existing hardware is too rare, new hardware is too expensive to justify for many people for what is only a hobby.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@cdimauro

Quote:

It's not an easy task, as you can read from this article:

On that note, your articles, they would once load up and ask about translation. For some reason they stopped last night. Cleared the cookies and it won't translate back!

Google translate was useless. Translation was fine I'm sure but it kept sticking these pictures in my face about "Stop! Hotlniked". I tried DeepL, the site wasn't so obvious so installed the plugin, but it keeps sticking this symbol over things and blocking text. And then, on your site, it didn't even show up! If it only works with an account then I'm over it already.

Quote:

However, the main problem for an OS should NOT be the endianess. To be more precise, if an OS relies on the endianess, then it's very badly written.

Well, I'm going to bring up an example of that, for fun. So Windows, you've said before is a good design, and I know people that know people who've seen the source and have confirmed it's well written. So my point was this. Windows depends on endianness! It depends on little endianness. Now it may be common endian these days so being popular won't hurt, making big endian look like the way of the dodo, but it does depend on it. Just like a BMP or RIFF depends on it. You would know about the ports of WindowsNT and articles by Raymond Chen. And now the ARM port.

Quote:

OSes should be endianess agnostic!

Well, Linux manages it, with a few specifics. Macros and other defines. But graphic drivers aren't!

Quote:

P.S. All articles are in Italian, but you can easily translate them with DeepL (the most accurate) or Google Translate (if you like to keep the formatting).

I'm cranky and impatient now. I tested them. They failed my easy test and I spent too much time now so I'm feeling old.

@matthey

Quote:

With open source A600GS software, a cheaper and higher performance RPi 4 or RPi 5 could be used which may be good for the user but not for A600GS sales. Cheap ARM hardware lacks value for emulating 68k hardware but is available to everyone so it is down to the software to add value which is why it is protected by businesses trying to make a quick profit with minimal investment and risk. RGL does the same thing but they are more experienced at it and more of their value comes from licensed games.

I think with the right software it can be fast and efficient. The A600GS software setup is designed to be optimal. At least for Workbench and RTG use. In this way it could even overshadow OS4. Despite the smaller box.

But I actually think a Pi can be good at emulation. I mean tightly integrated emulation such as PiStorm firmware. Not to over do it, but I was impressed by the performance of Doom. Now, I had Doom running using native screen mode so it would incur chip ram penalty, but it was so smooth. Even with the chunky to planar conversion it easily reached the Doom standard of 35 FPS. It was running the way Doom was meant to be 30 years ago.

Now, this made chip write penalty look transparent. As if it had a zero wait state. And, compared to my A4000/060/RTG, my A4000 couldn't touch it. Now imagine that emulation engine tightly integrated without chip bottle necks and without working off an ancient chipset bus. I'm sure it could run rings around the Rosetta stone, so to speak. Of course, the A600GS doesn't have access to Pi68K in the same fashion. And PPC emulation is another story. But an ARM can emulate 68K well. Oh yes, I didn't mention, my Doom test was running on an RPi3A+. Not the best slice of the Pi.

@agami

Your points:
1. MorphOS would be interesting but it also has done well and a lot better than OS4 in a few places. It really only lacks graphic drivers. I don't know how A-EON would feel about that and my impression is Hans would be happy to license his work out. But, the Enhancer software, as example, relies on BOOPSI while MOS is MUI based. It could be considered a "MUIorphOS".

2. It was done in the transition from OS3 to OS4. Which initially only took a few years. Most of hard work translating 68K ASM and OS3 C to OS4 C is done. It needed doing ten years ago at least to port again, but, how advanced has OS4 come that it would need an impossible amount of time?

3. That's pretty much the situation now. Pending. But, I don't think there is anyone else around to take it from here, nor anyone who would want to.

For years x86 and now x64 was on the most wanted list. For those without emotional ties to any CPU and 68K included. But now ARM has made some inroads. Especially in the Amiga market, So ARM is quite relevant to 68K right now, but PPC was also mated to Amiga at the hip once, so using a CPU currently joined to the Amiga may not work well again.

Would MorphOS need Enhancer or other drivers? Radeon yes but what else? I can't really see MorphOS as a replacement for OS4 because MorphOS is not AmigaOS. Similar core design yes, but Ambient is not Workbench and it's just not the same. Good for people who wanted a MUI WB or MUI OS but AmigaOS never worked that way. To put it another way, it would be like suggesting to BSD Unix users, that they should just use Linux, because aren't they both just another version of Unix?

I think AROS has the same problem as MorphOS. Apart from sharing of code. Wanderer is not Workbench so they'd need to replace that. I'm not sure why this ABI thing became a complication. Is there lots of legacy AROS software stuck on it that cannot be recompiled?

For a sand boxing solution AxRuntime could be one of the best.

Last edited by Hypex on 18-Sep-2024 at 02:27 AM.

@matthey



Quote:

With open source A600GS software, a cheaper and higher performance RPi 4 or RPi 5 could be used which may be good for the user but not for A600GS sales. Cheap ARM hardware lacks value for emulating 68k hardware but is available to everyone so it is down to the software to add value which is why it is protected by businesses trying to make a quick profit with minimal investment and risk. RGL does the same thing but they are more experienced at it and more of their value comes from licensed games.

This is completely inaccurate.

The value is in the original software development that we have completed and continue to implement.

The A600GS makes use of SystemV46 which was written from the ground up over many years. AK-Dataypes and AmiBench with SystemV46 represent many thousands of development hours. All of this software is not open source.

OctaMED 8, Personal Paint 7.4, Final Writer 7.1 represent many man hours of development time (none of which are open source).

Our developers have written original components such as the Datatypes Library, Picture Datatype, AB-Dock, DOS commands. These all represent a substantial investment into Amiga development. The developers got paid for this work.

Entities such as RGL invest next to nothing into our community developers.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

@Hypex

Quote:

I think AROS has the same problem as MorphOS. Apart from sharing of code. Wanderer is not Workbench so they'd need to replace that. I'm not sure why this ABI thing became a complication. Is there lots of legacy AROS software stuck on it that cannot be recompiled?

How cool would it be if it also used Ambient, but Michal Schulz doesn't finish Zune.. .

Last edited by pixie on 17-Sep-2024 at 04:58 PM.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@amigakit

Quote:

OctaMED 8, Personal Paint 7.4, Final Writer 7.1 represent many man hours of development time (none of which are open source).

So does AROS, the minimum you could do is helping strengthening the core you rely on, instead of using it for some sort of Theseus ship...

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

I was specifically pointing out the non open source software used by the A600GS which is very significant.

Of course we have said many times that any AROS bugs and changes we make will be submitted back to improve AROS for everyone.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

Hans Quote:

I consider RISC-V to be a risky bet at this stage, but that ecosystem is developing rapidly. Right now I still think that ARM is a better bet, because it's poised to finally knock x86/x64 off its desktop throne. RISC-V could catch up fast. Or, it could turn into a mess.

Where are the ARM motherboards/SBCs with PCIe 4.0+ x16 slots or even close to high end integrated GPUs like AMD APUs? Where is the ARM hardware plug and play PCIe GPU experience and compatibility with thousands of 3D games? What desktop ARM OS is poised to knock off Windows?

Windows 71% (x86-64)
macOS 15% (ARM)
Linux 5% (mixed)
ChromeOS 2% (ARM)

If games are still important for the desktop then x86-64 has a larger advantage.

Windows 96% (x86-64)
macOS 2% (ARM)
Linux 2% (mixed)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Desktop_and_laptop_computers

ARM AArch64 cores are more competitive and have less baggage due to reduced backward compatibility (3rd ARM ISA do over: ARM32, Thumb, Thumb-2, AArch64) but x86-64 cores remain very competitive in overall performance, performance efficiency (performance/MHz), power efficiency (performance/W) and backward compatibility. AArch64 cores may have a price efficiency (performance/$) advantage, low power advantage and low sleep power advantage but these are greatly diminished with high end micro-oped OoO cores. Some people thought PPC would dethrone x86 on the desktop as PPC CPU performance was competitive with x86 CPU performance for awhile but x86 Windows compatibility was more important than removing the architecture baggage with a new ISA. AArch64 is more competitive than PPC and has surpassed it in desktop market share but I would not call it "poised to finally knock x86/x64 off its desktop throne" yet.

RISC-V has more advantages over AArch64 than code density even though the RISCier ISA performance is weaker. The more open ISA and hardware has advantages like cheaper or no licenses and royalties, ISA customization and more control of the hardware future. RISC-V has a TSO memory ordering/consistency option that could make SMP easier to implement. The RISC-V SiFive u74 CPU core is available to license, likely without royalties, and practically eliminates load-to-use stalls for a low cost in-order core with good performance with improved performance for 68k emulation. I don't believe it supports TSO but it could likely be customized. With more customization, it may be able to execute 68k code directly, avoid the weak performance RISC-V ISA and could be converted to big endian for better compatibility yet. There are rumors that the RISC-V ISA was originally designed to be big endian but they changed it to be more x86-64 compatible. They did not leave short encodings for big endian loads even though there is demand for it now and RISC-V was supposed to be the versatile RISC ISA for everyone while avoiding past RISC mistakes. Maybe they will fix more mistakes and short sightedness in another do over RISC-VI ISA without the compatibility baggage.

Hans Quote:

Nonsense! If OS4 developers didn't care so much about 68K backward compatibility, then AmigaOS 4 would probably be much more advanced. Bending over backwards to keep old software & hardware running has come at a cost...

AmigaOS 4 developers cared about 68k AmigaOS 3 compatibility to create AmigaOS 4 and gain 68k AmigaOS 3.1 compatibility through emulation. AmigaOS 4 did not move forward with 68k compatibility from there. I believe there are some compatibility/API conflicts to porting AmigaOS 4 back to the 68k. It should be a relatively easy and straight forward process as new APIs should never conflict. My understanding from AmigaOS 3 developer comments is that it is not. I could be wrong and wish I was. If 68k AmigaOS development had been continued from the beginning with AmigaOS 4 development, performance permitting, there would likely be fewer compatibility issues and AmigaOS 4 development would likely be more active today. Recombining 68k and PPC AmigaOS development could allow enough funding for all AmigaOS development to continue. Perhaps Ben/Hyperion did not think they could legally continue to develop AmigaOS for the 68k until Ben realized Hyperion would not survive with PPC alone.

Hans Quote:

I don't think that it's the CPU that's "trapping" it, but "business & legal issues."

The CPU architecture is a large part of the "business & legal issues". If Hyperion/A-Eon and AmigaOS 4 are limited to PPC then Hyperion/A-Eon are as dead as PPC. Ben figured this out pretty quick and backed out of the settlement agreement where Michele generously offered to let Hyperion keep and continue to develop PPC AmigaOS 4. The 68k AmigaOS is where the money is and Hyperion had already moved in on part of the action.

Hypex Quote:

I think with the right software it can be fast and efficient. The A600GS software setup is designed to be optimal. At least for Workbench and RTG use. In this way it could even overshadow OS4. Despite the smaller box.

For Amiga productivity software, I want it multitasking together rather than isolated/sandboxed separately. Features to isolate, freeze and make saves of software environments are convenient, especially for games, though. Similar features were possible with real hardware (WHDLoad, Action Replay, etc.). Such features could be built in but may have limitations due to security reasons.

Hypex Quote:

But I actually think a Pi can be good at emulation. I mean tightly integrated emulation such as PiStorm firmware. Not to over do it, but I was impressed by the performance of Doom. Now, I had Doom running using native screen mode so it would incur chip ram penalty, but it was so smooth. Even with the chunky to planar conversion it easily reached the Doom standard of 35 FPS. It was running the way Doom was meant to be 30 years ago. Now, this made chip write penalty look transparent. As if it had a zero wait state. And, compared to my A4000/060/RTG, my A4000 couldn't touch it. Now imagine that emulation engine tightly integrated without chip bottle necks and without working off an ancient chipset bus. I'm sure it could run rings around the Rosetta stone, so to speak. Of course, the A600GS doesn't have access to Pi68K in the same fashion. And PPC emulation is another story. But an ARM can emulate 68K well. Oh yes, I didn't mention, my Doom test was running on an RPi3A+. Not the best slice of the Pi.

Doom seems to cap around 35 fps which a 68060 Amiga can reach (even at 320x240x8 in the following video where original Doom was 320x200x8).

Doom on Amiga 500 68080 VS Amiga 1200 68060
https://youtu.be/FnObHlOJtjQ?t=256

Quake is a better benchmark for CPU, GPU and memory performance. With old silicon and Amiga bottlenecks, the 68060 Amiga is much more impressive than the ARM emulation. A 68060@100MHz with 128MiB of memory requires an ARM Cortex-A53@1.2GHz and 1GiB of memory to surpass (RPi 3 specs). Even a conservatively clocked 68060@1GHz on modern silicon would utterly destroy the RPi 3 for executing 68k code. The ARM hardware is cheap but poor performance. ARM OoO hardware like the RPi 4 and RPi 5 are much better for emulation but they are huge cores.

core | transistors
68060 2,500,000
ARM11 9,000,000 (original RPi and RPi Zero)
Cortex-A53 15,000,000 (RPi 3)
Cortex-A57 90,000,000 (predecessor OoO core to the RPi 4 Cortex-A72)

The original RPi CPU core was only about 4 times the size of a 68060 core. A Cortex-A53 core is about 6 times while a Cortex-A57 core is about 36 times. The newer ARM cores have been growing exponentially even though Moore's Law has ended and SRAM scaling has dropped to a fraction of what it was. Transistors are cheap but this level of advancement is not sustainable. How absurd does this have to get? Wouldn't it be better to use the tens of millions of transistors on a GPU rather than a space heater CPU?

amigakit Quote:

This is completely inaccurate.

What hardware advantage does the A600GS hardware have over cheaper and higher performance RPi hardware?

amigakit Quote:

The value is in the original software development that we have completed and continue to implement.

I said, "so it is down to the software to add value".

amigakit Quote:

The A600GS makes use of SystemV46 which was written from the ground up over many years. AK-Dataypes and AmiBench with SystemV46 represent many thousands of development hours. All of this software is not open source. OctaMED 8, Personal Paint 7.4, Final Writer 7.1 represent many man hours of development time (none of which are open source). Our developers have written original components such as the Datatypes Library, Picture Datatype, AB-Dock, DOS commands. These all represent a substantial investment into Amiga development. The developers got paid for this work.

How many development hours have been wasted reinventing the wheel over and over again? Care to give a financial disclosure of which software you have a financial interest in?

amigakit Quote:

Entities such as RGL invest next to nothing into our community developers.

RGL licenses Amiga games which is payment to Amiga developers. Most of the game developers are likely inactive Amiga developers but there isn't any competitive Amiga hardware. RGL doesn't pretend THEA500 Mini is competitive hardware. They market it as a retro toy. Amiga toys or apparel which advertise and promote the Amiga may be better than nothing.

@cdimauro

Quote:

ARM is better because it's focused on performance: something which RISC-V will never catch on, since it's "too RISCy". The only good thing about this architecture is that it's free from licenses. And that it has better code density in its 64 bit version, compared to ARM.

I really doubt that, but who knows. RISC-V is cheap, farily highend boards are cheap.. way chaper than the cheapest amiga NG PPC solution.

Not so sure, that what you need right now is lots and lots of speed, I do think that what we need is readily and cheap hardware.

Just look at this board here: https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SiFive/HF105-001?qs=Imq1NPwxi75JBw6ulD0quQ%3D%3D

_________________

@matthey

Quote:

RGL licenses Amiga games which is payment to Amiga developers. Most of the game developers are likely inactive Amiga developers but there isn't any competitive Amiga hardware. RGL doesn't pretend THEA500 Mini is competitive hardware. They market it as a retro toy. Amiga toys or apparel which advertise and promote the Amiga may be better than nothing.

Of course it's better than nothing but you wouldn't know it from the aggression seen from some quarters! This whole call to arms to keep every Amiga dime for the dye in the wool career Amiga developers, retailers and repairers is getting very old! The fact the mainstream has taking an interest in the Amiga is a blessing to be used to raise the communities profile, not to attack and shun perfectly good retro computer companies! This is meant to be fun!

Seeing an A600GS sit idle at Zzap! Live because it hadn't been updated to the latest firmware or setup correctly by its owner was not fun to see. If you don't want to bother soft-modding or even firmware updating THEA500 Mini at least you know you'll still be able to play 25 classic Amiga games no questions asked out of the box any day of the week even if you have to do a factory reset! That reality after all the Zorro board resetting, pulling PiStorm32 cards out the required 1mm to make a proper connection, wiggling my prototype CD32 joypad/mouse switcher because the extender is not quite compatible etc, etc, is a breath of fresh air and a break from all this "When it's done!" madness! We need more machines that can be left unattended at a Retro Computer Show so people can just plug and play and have fun with it! Heck an A500 could be used with just a few floppy disks with Alien Breed, Rainbow Islands and Turrican on them! Why have we made the point of entry so much more difficult while shunning products that can open the door to new users?

Last edited by BigD on 17-Sep-2024 at 10:19 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@matthey



Quote:

What hardware advantage does the A600GS hardware have over cheaper and higher performance RPi hardware?

Apart from the fact that the A600GS is a ready made complete computer with licenced software- not just a bare board that you are comparing to:

You may have missed that we are progressively converting functions to run natively in ARM code bypassing the 68K bottleneck. This is initially avaiable in our ARM Graphics Library but will be expanded to other system libraries. AmiBench performance will steadily improve. Any 68K developer can take advantage of this for their own applications or games.

Quote:

How many development hours have been wasted reinventing the wheel over and over again? Care to give a financial disclosure of which software you have a financial interest in?

A lot of the code base was written to support the X5000, A1222 and X1000 when it was released as part of the Enhancer Software. It is now backported to the A600GS and forms the SystemV46 installation that every A600GS is supplied with.

The A600GS could not rely on legally disputed projects such as OS3.2 for it's system software. However, thanks to this longstanding work, the legal situation of other companies has been bypassed. Six years later, "reinventing the wheel" seems a prudent move considering that the clean code base is free from the legal entanglements. If we had sat on our hands, many things would not have been achieved in this time and the A600GS would not be possible.

Quote:

RGL licenses Amiga games which is payment to Amiga developers. Most of the game developers are likely inactive Amiga developers but there isn't any competitive Amiga hardware. RGL doesn't pretend THEA500 Mini is competitive hardware. They market it as a retro toy. Amiga toys or apparel which advertise and promote the Amiga may be better than nothing.

"Inactive" maybe putting it generously. The developers have long left the Amiga and will not be back. RGL does not promote it as an Amiga, but do not object when others conflate or misrepesent it as an Amiga. Lets be honest, this is a smash and grab for cash. Once RGL have extracted the money from our community it is onto the next retro "console" as they refer to the Amiga.


@BigD
Quote:

Seeing an A600GS sit idle at Zzap! Live because it hadn't been updated to the latest firmware or setup correctly by its owner was not fun to see.

A few yards away were two A600GS which were running a range of games and Amibench all day. They were well used throughout the show with many attendees trying them out. There was also a lot of use of the A600GS on display at Amiga38 in Germany and Amiga Ireland shows too. At the end of October the A600GS will be available for demonstration at Amiwest.

Last edited by amigakit on 17-Sep-2024 at 11:43 PM.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

It's almost 2025 and someone just realized PowerPC has been dead for at least a decade?

Next someone will realize that the A in A600GS stands for the cpu-war winner: ARM!

...something I've been asking for since maybe 8 years ago...

Who would have thunk it?

@amigakit

Quote:

"Inactive" maybe putting it generously. The developers have long left the Amiga and will not be back. RGL does not promote it as an Amiga, but do not object when others conflate or misrepesent it as an Amiga. Lets be honest, this is a smash and grab for cash. Once RGL have extracted the money from our community it is onto the next retro "console" as they refer to the Amiga.

Just play nice! You've got maybe 6 months before the Maxi comes out so try and win some hearts and minds in that time would be good! No more defending your Amiga Kingdom against the Evil Forces of Skeletor! If it's a smash a grab by RGL then it was worth it! The platform has had another 2-3 years in the sun before the retro bubble bursts and we're all go back to trying to be Calvin Harris on Octamed on an A600GS in our bedroom while everyone else is still playing Worms DC on a Mini in the living room or have packed it all away as a display piece as you'd prefer to imagine!

Not everyone is Ben Hermans, they just beat you to market and released a great product! I look forward to the Amiga show where you are seen to shake Stuart Chiplin's hand! Perhaps we could orchestrate you presenting him with an honorary award when RGL launch the Maxi or something as a peace offering? Maybe we should invite the Gadget Show to get publicity? How are you going to make Amiga known in the 21st century on you own?

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios