@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @pixie Quote: pixie wrote: @jorkany You wouldn't, but then again, in your analogy, it would be him who would be using the pool! No, Jorkany would be swimming in the pool behind the house and the contractor would be out alot of money. Not sure why you think someone building a pool in someones backyard gives them the right to swim in it. -Tig

I think you missed it here Tigger:

AInc contracts Hyperion to build a house. Supposed move in date 6 months after down payment. They take 4 years and add a pool. Tell AInc the house is now done so Ainc pays the agreed price. Hyperion says that is not enough so pay more.Hyperion now says they own the house because the pool cost so much, you did not pay quickly enough, besides you looked like you couldn't finish paying for it anyway.

Now serious: The only argument Hyperion has in my estimation is the insolvency clause. It looks to me like they waited too long to invoke it to me. They sure did not talk or act like they thought that that had occured. If they end up with OS4 in this double cross I will be suprised. For those wanting to work with Hyperion, as SSolie said about them "watch your back".

@stew
You're probably missing the start of it, take it:
Quote:

How so? The 2001 contract wasn't for a complete PPC port with all

Ainc might get the house all right, but the pool, the pool would just.... pufff!

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@pixie

Quote:

I'm selling to you this beauty z3 *without* its retracting roof at a given pricec(for no particular reason, for this particular example you might as well imagine dog had eaten it), and in the last minute though I managed to get it a roof, wanna a bet you wont get wet on a rainy day if you do not pay for it?

Let's put it this way --- if you only have one z3, and it doesn't work without the roof, then wanna bet that Tigger will get the roof?


People act like there is a clear separation between "the stuff contractually agreed upon" and "the stuff they added". There is not. For starters, there simply is no WarpOS based Exec....

OS components interact, and are interdependent. You cannot simply say "well, component A was done to contractually specified levels at point X, and component B at point Y, so we will pull A.X and B.Y from the repository and hand them over". You do that, and (assuming Y is later than X), B.Y has a good chance of not working, because it relies on behaviour present in A.Y, but not in A.X.

If I contract you to build me a straightforward little single-story house, to specification, and you instead build me a house with triple-glazed windows, rainwater reclamation, grey-water reclamation, solar water heating, escalators and a huge wine cellar as well as an internal-access three car garage, install CAT6 cabling all through the house and make all the lights controlled and dimmable through X10 switches.... would you really expect to be *REWARDED* for doing so?
Apart from the fact that I could sue the hell out of you for building something on my land that I did not ask for and did not authorise you to build, I could certainly say "so, where is my house, the house I paid for?". If you point at the thing you built, then that's what you will have to hand over. You cannot remove any of the "enhancements" without making the whole thing unsuable.

Also, it could well be argued whether those "enhancements" are actually taking value away from what Amiga Inc contracted for. For example, the contract spells out that things should be WarpOS based. WarpOS has a reasonably well publicly documented (and extremely primitive) HAL, upon which the remainder of the system rests. In other words, receiving a WarpOS based OS, it would have been fairly simple for Amiga to adapt things to other hardware.
Now, instead, there is "ExecSG", a proprietary kernel, the code for which is owned by non-parties to the contract and is unlikely to be available to Amiga, with a HAL which is not publicly documented and which needs an estimated 11-13 days of its authors' time (at $1,000 a day, no less) to be adapted to new hardware, and which for all that does not even abstract the virtual addressing facilities of the processor (which *are* however absolutely required for this new kernel, so add anoth 2-3 days to fix *that* mess), or the timing facilities (another 2-3 days).

In other words --- if I have had a dream of crafting my own formal garden, have carefully picked a building site with the right soil, the right slope, the right sunlight --- and now cme back and someone thought they could "enhance" my house by levelling the back yard and digging a huge hole in it, reinforcing its walls with concrete and putting tiles on top of the concrete (in other words, "added a pool"), I might not be amused AT ALL. I might very well demand compensation....

Last edited by umisef on 19-Jul-2007 at 01:39 AM.

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: Pactuating with fraud is also crime... Jews gold on swiss for example is a good example

I have no idea what pactuating is, so I'm not going to rebutt this portion.

Quote:

And ITEC being KMOS being Amiga Inc Delaware being Amiga Inc Wahington or at least having all the same signature on the pay check which is the same...

The only companies that are the same are:

Amiga(Delaware) and KMOS, and KMOS renamed itself to Amiga Inc after acquiring the Amiga Trademarks, which is the same thing Amino did when it acquired the Amiga trademarks. Do you think that was fraudulent as well?

Quote:

Therefore lots of source...

Have no idea what your point is here and why you continue to talk about companies that have nothing to do with this topic, which is Itec suing Hyperion in New York.
-Tig

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @Tigger in the last minute though I managed to get it a roof, wanna a bet you wont get wet on a rainy day if you do not pay for it?

Which has almost nothing to do with the original analogy. I bought a Z3 (because I was apparently really drunk) and it didnt have the retractable roof, its perfectly fine for you to deliver it to me that way. Thats not what we are talking about with the House. I paid you to build a house for me on my property, after you say you are done I walk in the back and I have a cement pond in the backyard, not only do I not have to pay for it, I probably can sue the hell out of you about it. First of all I might not swim, my young children might not swim, I might have wanted to put a larger pool in the backyard or put it on the other side. I might not like the color, the lights, etc. You have messed up my backyard and just because you say a pool is a great addition, doesnt mean I like what you have done to my backyard. Its the same with OS4. Exec-SG isnt the kernal they were promised and I doubt Hyperion will ever have the money for AI to get there hands on it, so it is less useful to AI then what they contracted for.
-Tig

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@stew

Quote:

stew wrote: I think you missed it here Tigger:

You misread what I wrote. I think the owner of the house, owns the pool, in fact I know the owner of the house owns the pool, in fact I would likely get lots of additions to the house over that particular mixup if it happened at my house. Pixie thinks the builder of House and Pool gets to swim in the pool and the owner doesnt or something like that, I was disagreeing with him.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 19-Jul-2007 at 02:31 AM.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Lou Yes and when those same venture capitalist took the Classic OS and Hyperion contract as part of there first secured creditor status, you think its a scam. So explain to us one more time, do you want venture capitalists to own the OS or not? -Tig

Depends if they are the same ones or not. There are plenty out there.

So either they took it as secured creditors because Amiga was insolvent or it was an unappoved transfer - which is it?

@Tigger

Quote:

Which has almost nothing to do with the original analogy. I bought a Z3 (because I was apparently really drunk) and it didnt have the retractable roof, its perfectly fine for you to deliver it to me that way. Thats not what we are talking about with the House. I paid you to build a house for me on my property, after you say you are done I walk in the back and I have a cement pond in the backyard, not only do I not have to pay for it, I probably can sue the hell out of you about it. First of all I might not swim, my young children might not swim, I might have wanted to put a larger pool in the backyard or put it on the other side. I might not like the color, the lights, etc. You have messed up my backyard and just because you say a pool is a great addition, doesnt mean I like what you have done to my backyard. Its the same with OS4. Exec-SG isnt the kernal they were promised and I doubt Hyperion will ever have the money for AI to get there hands on it, so it is less useful to AI then what they contracted for. -Tig

Well, I think we can ALL agree that your analogy is very flawed and would EASILY be discounted....

How? Just point them to all the "Ask Fleccy" BS that was on this site no less.

To make another analogy...

It would be like you, Tigger, contracting to have a house made. Then the builder decides to add a pool in the backyard all on his own accord. (Here's my part of the analogy) -- Then months or years before you EVEN move into or EVEN see the house or pool you tell God and everybody who will listen, "Hey I asked to have a house built and not only are they building a house they are building a POOL in the backyard too!! Isn't that GREAT?!?! It's so AMAZING." To take the analogy further it would also be like you saying, "Oh and the builder is building a ROCKET SHIP in my back yard and it will take as all to the moon when ever we want. This is the BEST THING ever!!! This will be better than Bill Gates and Steve Jobs houses combined!!!" (That part is where Fleccy even lied about things incase you missed it)

Yeah, might be hard to say A Inc wasn't "AWARE" Hyperion were going beyond the scope of the project or even that Amiga Inc. wasn't even happy or encouraging it. I think it would be ridiculous to try to claim it is "useless" to them Tigger, but nice try.

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 19-Jul-2007 at 04:31 AM.

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@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: Depends if they are the same ones or not. There are plenty out there.

Frankly these ones have been remarkably patient, there are lots worse out there.

Quote:

So either they took it as secured creditors because Amiga was insolvent or it was an unappoved transfer - which is it?

I disagree with the premise.
1) Amiga does not have to be insolvent for a first secured creditor to take the OS, there are lots of other conditions that can trigger that event.

2) Hyperion with its affirmative defense has to prove it was an unapproved transfer and to do that they have to get Eyetech into court. I dont believe thats going to happen for several reasons.

And lets be honest given everything that Hyperion and Eyetech said about KMOS on and about March 15, 2004 don't you feel silly arguing that they didnt agree to KMOS being a successor company? And if they didnt agree to them being the successor company why when KMOS changed its name to Amiga Inc (March 16, 2005) did Hyperion or Eyetech not voice a problem with the transfer then, rather then continue to change there website to say first KMOS and then AI was the owner of the OS. Only after the contract is cancelled does Hyperion decide that KMOS isnt the successor and we never agreed to it. But this case doesnt even need the KMOS transfer, all its about is Itec completing a contract and Hyperion not living up to its end of the bargain.
-Tig

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@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote: @Tigger Well, I think we can ALL agree that your analogy is very flawed and would EASILY be discounted... .

Pixie thinks I dont own the pool, pixies wrong, if you dont think I own the pool, you are wrong too. Period. Now if you are saying the OS is more complex then the pool issue, absolutely, right now at least 3 of us are trying to get pixie to understand we would own the pool not the builder.

Quote:

Yeah, might be hard to say A Inc wasn't "AWARE" Hyperion were going beyond the scope of the project or even that Amiga Inc. wasn't even happy or encouraging it. I think it would be ridiculous to try to claim it is "useless" to them Tigger, but nice try.

I'm sorry but a Kernel they have object only access to is pretty useless AmigaHeretic, its basically impossible for them to port it to another piece of hardware. I'm pretty sure that Amigas goal for the OS was not to run on a single PPC board family that hasnt been manufactured since December of 2005. In fact if all AI gets out of this is a bunch of executables (ie no source) then I don't think its worth the $25K they've already paid. They'd be better off going back and negotiating with Bernd.
-Tig

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@all

I just read a couple more pages of this thread.

(ring around the Amiga, ashes, ashes, they all fall down)

This thread is about ITEC in NY. Its about the 2003 contract. Very little of the 2001 contract will be seen, heard or in play - period. Hyperion contends ITEC got the IP illegally. Court will ask Hyperion for proof. Hyperion will prove or not ( its up to Hyperion to prove not ITEC). (Remember, without proof (legal) that insolvancy or bankruptcy occured during the time in question, the burdon of proof is on HYPERION.)

If Hyperion can prove, then all the property reverts to AI.W and will be placed up for auction to pay AI.W's debts. (of which ITEC will get a good chunk of it. ) - - - Hyperion & ITEC lose.

If Hyperion Cannot, then why haven't they followed through with their obligation in accordance with the 2003 contract? - - - Hyperion lose.

There is no third event - because its prove or not, win or lose. Remember, this is about the 2003 contract. . . .

Not a very promising situation for the community as a whole.

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@umisef

Quote:

Let's put it this way --- if you only have one z3, and it doesn't work without the roof, then wanna bet that Tigger will get the roof?

Please don't mess with my analogies... I gave Z3 because it's a well known car, and of course that for this propose alone it would work. BTW I'm not discussing if Tiger would find a value in a roofless car, it is stated he already had, probably the car even drinks a lot of gas and farts even more. But let's assume it just contractually bought it without the roof for the sake of simpleness, let's just say the dog eat it...

Last edited by pixie on 19-Jul-2007 at 09:18 AM.

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@umisef

Quote:

Also, it could well be argued whether those "enhancements" are actually taking value away from what Amiga Inc contracted for. For example, the contract spells out that things should be WarpOS based. WarpOS has a reasonably well publicly documented (and extremely primitive) HAL, upon which the remainder of the system rests. In other words, receiving a WarpOS based OS, it would have been fairly simple for Amiga to adapt things to other hardware.

And you think Hyperion did it all without consulting Amiga? ExecSG seems to have some kind of value 2M of non existent money were said to be on their way to settle things out to actually get it, not bragging about because they've done it...

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@Tigger

Quote:

I have no idea what pactuating is, so I'm not going to rebutt this portion.

Connivence

Quote:

Have no idea what your point is here and why you continue to talk about companies that have nothing to do with this topic, which is Itec suing Hyperion in New

Probably you have to go deeper in the thread to add some context. If they aren't related, then ples don't add more to the noise, thank you very much.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Which has almost nothing to do with the original analogy.

Which is an analogy and has not anything to do with the real world.

Quote:

I bought a Z3 (because I was apparently really drunk) and it didnt have the retractable roof, its perfectly fine for you to deliver it to me that way. Thats not what we are talking about with the House. I paid you to build a house for me on my property, after you say you are done I walk in the back and I have a cement pond in the backyard, not only do I not have to pay for it, I probably can sue the hell out of you about it. First of all I might not swim, my young children might not swim, I might have wanted to put a larger pool in the backyard or put it on the other side. I might not like the color, the lights, etc. You have messed up my backyard and just because you say a pool is a great addition, doesnt mean I like what you have done to my backyard. Its the same with OS4. Exec-SG isnt the kernal they were promised and I doubt Hyperion will ever have the money for AI to get there hands on it, so it is less useful to AI then what they contracted for.

There's more to OS4 then ExecNG you know... the extra stuff which derivate this analogy is full of stuff which aren't as tied as ExecNG.

Let me put it this way, ExecNG is out of contract bounds as even you would agree, at most you would get a non usable OS, you would pray for a breach of contract and Hyperion might no be able to sell it to no one else (but could do a clean implementation of it) still Amiga Inc wouldn't be able to touch what isn't theirs by contract. So in this analogy might sue the hell out of the constructor still the pool would puff... because in analogy world anything can happen...

Last edited by pixie on 19-Jul-2007 at 09:50 AM.

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Quote:

pixie wrote: BTW, you know simple logic don't you? Contract stipulate given amount of features, if there's more implemented they surely are out of contract scope, how you do not understand simple logic is beyond me... let me put it this way I'm selling to you this beauty z3 *without* its retracting roof at a given pricec(for no particular reason, for this particular example you might as well imagine dog had eaten it), and in the last minute though I managed to get it a roof, wanna a bet you wont get wet on a rainy day if you do not pay for it?

You dont get paid for something you weren't supposed to do. If you fail to understand that, discussion is moot.

Morever, no matter what Hyperion did with the sourcecode, that altered/enhanced source code does not belong to Hyperion, their only right to alter the source rises from the contract, which explicitly states that ownership at any time remains with Amiga.

Btw, I am a senior programmer, I was in this situation of having done more than requested. There is absolutely nothing one can do about it, no matter what features I add on my own, they automatically belong to the owner of the IP.

@pixie

Quote:

There's more to OS4 then ExecNG you know... the extra stuff which derivate this analogy is full of stuff which aren't as tied as ExecNG.

Some stuff may indeed be missing. However, at least everything that has been released, must also be transferred, including all contracts that relate to OS4.

@Ketzer
Quote:

There is absolutely nothing one can do about it, no matter what features I add on my own, they automatically belong to the owner of the IP.

I wont be discussing magic with you...

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@pixie

Quote:

Please don't mess with my analogies...

Well, your analogies suck, because they are not very analoguous. They propose that the "enhancements" are trivially separable from the contracted work (here: the roof can be removed from the sold-as-roofless car, and the car still works). Also, in your analogy, the enhancement has a value separate from the contracted items (i.e. there are many Z3 in the world, and some probably have broken roofs, so having a roof left over after the sale is good for you).

In the case of OS4, when you start removing "enhancements", other things which *were* contracted for and which rely on those "enhancements" stop working. Also, the "enhancements" are useless without the non-enhanced AmigaOS (i.e. the contracted bits and the owned-by-Amiga-at-all-times bits), because there is no other OS which could be enhanced by the "enhancements".

Back to the house analogy --- if I contract you to build a garage-less house, and you decide to add a garage to my house, then come delivery time, you are of course perfectly entitled to demolish the garage and take away the rubble. But doing so will probably leave the house with unrendered walls, unterminated gutters, possibly no place to put the fusebox, and so on. And seeing as the contract we agreed upon specified that the house be rendered, the gutters be terminated and the fusebox be installed and safe, you will have to spend considerable amounts of time and money fixing things up. Time during which I don't have the use of my contracted-for house, either, so not only does it cost you your own time and money, but I might also demand compensation for your failure to deliver on time.

Yes, while strictly speaking I could *demand* you do this (because the contract spells out the deliverables, and you are delivering something different, so you are breaching the contract), you might get some sympathy if I had done site inspections during the build, had seen the garage, had said "that's a funky garage you put there", and had *not* said "but why the heck are you putting up a garage?".
You'd probably get less sympathy if I paid you in 2003, and in 2007 you are still putting the finishing touches on the garage, with me still living in a trailer.

However, what will not happen is that you get paid for the garage. You can only leave it, or take it. Just like the T-Bird you parked inside the garage. But unlike the T-Bird, the garage is much harder to take.

Last edited by umisef on 19-Jul-2007 at 12:23 PM.
Last edited by umisef on 19-Jul-2007 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by umisef on 19-Jul-2007 at 12:22 PM.

Maybe a Project Manager would have been of good use, Amiga Inc ?
Maybe we could have avoided this mess then ?

..but then again I guess no one at Amiga Inc had a clue anyway what needed
to be done so it would have been a wasted effort.

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